Wasn't there a thread a while back about the best systems for vehicle incorporation/combat? Little help? Bueller?
I don't recall it, but a good place to look would be SJG's "Gurps vehivles 3eR".
I don't recall the thread either. Hrms.
Albeit my vote would be Mekton Zeta.
Okay, my bad. :D I must have dreamed it.
In that case,
I re-christen this thread, in the name of all that is role and play,
SIR COOL SCI-FI RPG VEHICLE RULES THREAD, Duke of Anti-Gravity, Baron of Payload.
Who gots some?
MegaTraveller!
101 Vehicles.
Sweet!
I'd add my own StarCluster 2 Vehicle Design Guide, (http://jalan.flyingmice.com/starcluster-vehicle.html) along with the Cold Space Vehicle Design Guide (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=5960&), the CSVDG is more a system for modifying existing vehicles than for designing from scratch. You can use the two together, though. :D
-clash
Yo. D6, yo.
Traveller d20 has the best of all existant Starship Combat systems for Roleplaying Games (note emphasis) AFAIAC.
Not that it couldn't use some brushing up... I don't think it scales up to capital ships well. But when it comes to what an RPG starship combat ship should do, it does it well. To wit, it works well on the scale of starships most PCs will operate, and it does an outstanding job of involving all PCs. PCs don't sit back and wait while the gunner and pilot resolve combat.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadTo wit, it works well on the scale of starships most PCs will operate, and it does an outstanding job of involving all PCs. PCs don't sit back and wait while the gunner and pilot resolve combat.
What's it do to involve the PCs? I think that a GM can do that regardless of system, but
thinking of stuff for the other PCs to do is tricky. One guy piloting, one on the sensors, one shooting at stuff...and the other two?
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!...and the other two?
They give the active characters massages to ease the strain of being at maximum alert.
Babylon 5 2nd edition has a really nice vehicular combat system.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!What's it do to involve the PCs? I think that a GM can do that regardless of system, but thinking of stuff for the other PCs to do is tricky. One guy piloting, one on the sensors, one shooting at stuff...and the other two?
First off, you sort of need to understand that as a default, T20 combat is mapless (though it has additional rules if you want to use a map). That being the case, it's easy to work abstract things like navigation.
It's been a while since I ran it, but recalling from the one game that actually featured lots of ship combat:
- navigators can derive courses that best control the distance to the enemy. And, of course, plot that emergency escape jump. ;)
- sensor operators can break missile locks of target on an opponent, boosting gunner rolls.
- engineers can boost power (allowing you to both use your ships agility and fire your lasers on your little merchant), overpower weapons, or boost drive ratings.
It can still be a bit of a snooze being a medic until casualties occur, but I try to make sure the medic is a competent sensor operator.
Now, it wouldn't be hard to put all this in Classic or MegaTraveller. But we are talking about printed games, so there you go.
Thanks mucho from a self-described fantasy rpg hermit. :)
I'm always delightedly surprised at how this site is just a ridiculously excellent brain trust.
Signed, a Member of Adverbs Anonmymous
Quote from: ReimdallThanks mucho from a self-described fantasy rpg hermit. :)
I'm always delightedly surprised at how this site is just a ridiculously excellent brain trust.
Thank you.
Back on topic, there are two different vehicle design system bases. One base is for a specific game and uses technology and assumed technology from one universe, like traveller, for example. In this type of system you can create vehicles and systems for one setting.
Then there's the 'universal' system that allows for things to be made under any system and any set of assumptions. Guprs vehivles or mekton zeta+ are examples of this sytem.
Each has it's merits and flaws. The single universe systems offer total consistency and detail, and are often more concise and simpler.
The universal systems offer more flexibility, at the expence of greater size and complexity, plus the fact that the systems may falter or fail in some esoteric conditions. (While gurps vewhicles allowed players to design anything from a chariot to a battlestar, many people complained about the length and complexity of the rules system. Still, it worked if you were willing and able to work with it.)
Take your pick and have fun. ;)
Wow. When he said "vehicles", I thought of cars and trucks, so...CAR WARS! But, space ships are good to.
BobManGM
Quote from: bobmangmso...CAR WARS!
BobManGM
I'm working on it... ;)
The BESM vehicle rules are simple and flexible, once you get the hang of it. It cannot cover small differences like you'd want with a game focused on vehicle combat. But it's good for fudging things quickly. You essentially just buy features with pts.
Quote from: NicephorusThe BESM vehicle rules are simple and flexible, once you get the hang of it. It cannot cover small differences like you'd want with a game focused on vehicle combat.
Their "Space Fantasy" supplement adds a few more optional rules that crunch up space combat
One thing to remember: The more detailed and complex the design rules are, the less fudging you need to do later in the game.
For example, the gurps vehicle system is a monster, but once it's done you know how much things weigh, how much space they take up, etc, how much power a given device needs, produces or stores, etc.
So, in a situation where your players starship is shot up and crashes on a planet with alien wrecks on it, and they want to replace their damaged reactor with one salvaged from an alien wreck you know how much the new reactor prodiuces, weighs and what volume it needs. This makes things more consistent and easier to do modifications later on.
Sure, the initial design is a bitch, but once it's done the detail makes things easier. It's kina like they say in the military: The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat.
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonTheir "Space Fantasy" supplement adds a few more optional rules that crunch up space combat
Really? I've heard nothing but bad things about that book.
Which is sad, because it was the supplement I was most interested in owning after
Big Ears, Small Mouse.
Quote from: Dominus NoxFor example, the gurps vehicle system is a monster, but once it's done you know how much things weigh, how much space they take up, etc, how much power a given device needs, produces or stores, etc.
That's great. Now how do I run a chase scene?
This, by the way, from a sincere GURPS fan.
No love for Striker here? I made some pretty cool vehicles with that. My favourite was a little sports grav car that hit 1000 kmh or something stupid like that.
Quote from: droogNo love for Striker here?
Dude, if I
had Striker, I might just lubbit.
Quote from: droogNo love for Striker here? I made some pretty cool vehicles with that. My favourite was a little sports grav car that hit 1000 kmh or something stupid like that.
I have Striker via the Classic Games reprint volume and it looks eminently tinkerable. Just haven't had time to sit down with it and figger it out.
I do like that they used a Panther tank for the design sequence example. Looks like it's a fairly accurate one, too.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!That's great. Now how do I run a chase scene?
This, by the way, from a sincere GURPS fan.
Well, obviously the fist thing is to have vehicles of comparable but maybe at least slightly dissimiliar speed, as huge discrpencies on speed will usually make a chase scene imposible unless the pursuer starts at a hell of a distance.
Quote from: Dominus NoxWell, obviously the fist thing is to have vehicles of comparable but maybe at least slightly dissimiliar speed, as huge discrpencies on speed will usually make a chase scene imposible unless the pursuer starts at a hell of a distance.
Next?
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Next?
*SIGH*
Now it depends on what kind of chase you want. If it's just a straignt, open space/terrain chase and the vehicles are comparable in speed, make some dramatic" "pushing the engine " rules up and see who blows a gasket/reactor first. Also add in driving rolls to take advantage of terrain or avoid dangers in the road/space haead.
In other chase scenes one vehicle could be faster, but the other smaller and more agile. Remember the "asteroid" scene in "the empire strikes back?" The star destroyers and tie fighters were faster than the falcon in sublight, but the falcon could maneuver better thru asteroids than a destroyer, and the fighters would be killed by collisions that the falcon could survive. That kind of chase can be dramatic, and used on earth with bad roads or rough terrain substituting got the asteroids.
There's also the chase/hunt, when the pursued unit tries to evade and elude the pursuer rather than simply outrun it.n In this case you use drive/pilot skills plus rolls to evade versus rolls to maintain contact.
We used to play a table top car racing game, where you could push the car to higher than suggested speeds. When you did, the car had a chance of breaking down (1d6, say roll 6 and the car blows). The vehicle wouldn't stop, but your speed was cut 1/2. If you tried to push the car again, you would stop completely.
Although, with space ships and crews, you could have a slight chance of "bypassing the main power feed, Captain." To adjust for this issue, maybe use 1d10 instead of 1d6.
Just keeping it simple.
BobManGM
Quote from: Dominus Nox*SIGH*
Don't give me that crap, boyo. I played GURPS for a damned long time and never found a good pursuit system. If you think you can answer the question, then answer the goddamn question and don't go huffing and puffing like it's some sort of inconvenience to share your wisdom 'n' shit.
QuoteNow it depends on what kind of chase you want. If it's just a straignt, open space/terrain chase and the vehicles are comparable in speed, make some dramatic" "pushing the engine " rules up and see who blows a gasket/reactor first. Also add in driving rolls to take advantage of terrain or avoid dangers in the road/space haead.
Ah, so make it up. OK. Integration?
QuoteIn other chase scenes one vehicle could be faster, but the other smaller and more agile. Remember the "asteroid" scene in "the empire strikes back?" The star destroyers and tie fighters were faster than the falcon in sublight, but the falcon could maneuver better thru asteroids than a destroyer, and the fighters would be killed by collisions that the falcon could survive. That kind of chase can be dramatic, and used on earth with bad roads or rough terrain substituting got the asteroids.
This is good advice for any game.
QuoteThere's also the chase/hunt, when the pursued unit tries to evade and elude the pursuer rather than simply outrun it.n In this case you use drive/pilot skills plus rolls to evade versus rolls to maintain contact.
With GURPS. We're talking GURPS.
Never mind.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Don't give me that crap, boyo. I played GURPS for a damned long time and never found a good pursuit system. If you think you can answer the question, then answer the goddamn question and don't go huffing and puffing like it's some sort of inconvenience to share your wisdom 'n' shit.
Ah, so make it up. OK. Integration?
This is good advice for any game.
With GURPS. We're talking GURPS.
Never mind.
It's not my fucking job to write rules to cover the gaps in gurps. Go to the gurps forums and ask there, just do yourself a favor and put "qoltar", "asta kask" and "paladin" on your IL right off the bat.
Jurgen Hurbert can usually be counted on for good advice, as, of course, can Kromm.
Quote from: KenHRI have Striker via the Classic Games reprint volume and it looks eminently tinkerable. Just haven't had time to sit down with it and figger it out.
I do like that they used a Panther tank for the design sequence example. Looks like it's a fairly accurate one, too.
Striker will drive you nuts...but in a good way. In the end I just didn't have the time, but perhaps with modern technology (eg spreadsheets) it would be less of a timesink.
Though Striker was fun to tinker with in the day, I think it, like GURPS Vehicles and CORPS VDS, is too much.
Quote from: Dominus NoxIt's not my fucking job to write rules to cover the gaps in gurps.
I asked you if you knew a way to do chases in GURPS. You started to answer, then stopped. I asked for more, and you got huffy.
Look, dude, just -- whatever. ILs are a great idea. Good night and good luck.
Quote from: droogStriker will drive you nuts...but in a good way. In the end I just didn't have the time, but perhaps with modern technology (eg spreadsheets) it would be less of a timesink.
I have an addiction to creating spreadsheets for my games. I'm home sick today; p'raps I'll crack open Striker and see what I can do...
I bought Stryker when it came out, and never did more than scan it. I was under the impression it was a supplement for Traveller, but when I found out it was a miniature game I put it on the shelf. It's still there, covered with dust. Is it worth looking at to mine for ideas, or is it too complex?
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceIs it worth looking at to mine for ideas, or is it too complex?
-clash
It's very complex, but no more complex than the later Fire, Fusion, and Steel. if you want to fine tune aspects of vehicles and build them from the ground up, it's handy. You can pull systems off of the shelf or go nuts and design many of the components as well. You can detail the level of armor for each facing of the body and turret separately and determine exact ammo carried.
You could use the vehicles with other games with a bit of translation. speed/acceleration and capacity are straightforward but penetration/damage may not be as easy.
Megatraveller's vehicle design sequence is good too, not quite as detailed but quicker.
Quote from: flyingmiceI bought Stryker when it came out, and never did more than scan it. I was under the impression it was a supplement for Traveller, but when I found out it was a miniature game I put it on the shelf. It's still there, covered with dust. Is it worth looking at to mine for ideas, or is it too complex?
-clash
Then I'll dust off your bookshelf for you.
My price? One
Striker. Y'welcome!
I've looked over many of the available VDS (Gurps, CORPS, D20 Blood & Circuits, TechLaw etc) but none of them have been exactly was I was after.
Is there anywhere I can get any more info on this 'Striker' system?
Quote from: O'BorgIs there anywhere I can get any more info on this 'Striker' system?
You might want to check out the Citizens of the Imperium Traveller Wargames board at travellerrpg.com.
There are two Yahoo groups I know of that are devoted to the game (ct-striker and etranger).
The Classic Traveller CD-ROM, which is (still) forthcoming from Far Future (for $35, it looks like it will be a GREAT deal), will include the game. It can also be found in the Classic Games reprint, which is out of print (and the most expensive of the series).
MegaTraveller's design sequence is very much striker-derived.
Problem is that what's not too difficult on the flying-tank scale can become really tedious on the flying-battleship scale.
Spreadsheets are very highly recommended if you are actually going to use the MT design sequence.
(But, to be fair, its not as bad as GV or CORPS VDS.)
I like the Heavy Gear/Silhouette VDS though I hear EABA's Stuff! system isn't bad (and easier than BTRC's other systems).
Striker has useful characters for smallarms at multiple TLs and could be used to replace CT default combat with a penetration based combat system simpler than MT (similar to AHL's but much cheaper to buy these days). It also has some other integration bits with Traveller.
FWIW I have two sets (though only 1 set of charts) I'd be willing to part with if anyone's interested. Books only, no boxes. Fun stuff and less rulesitis/verbage than TNE's Striker II but I have other rules for scifi minis (SGII/DSII) and I've given up on "fixing" CT.
I'm surprised this went as far as it did before someone mentioned Silhouette.
My two favorite vehicle design systems are SilCore (the current incarnation of Silhouette) and Mekton Zeta. I have been interested in the CORPS VDS but have not picked it up yet.
SilCore is very streamlined and flexible - there isn't any futzing around with mass and volume and such. You basically pick the Size of the vehicle, the armor, how manueverable it is, movement modes, design some weapons, add in any characteristics the vehicle has and you're done. It works great for converting vehicles that you already have real world statistics for. The SilCore tactical combat system is optimized for vehicles and does a pretty good job, as well as interfacing with the personal combat system fairly seamlessly.
Weapons design is effects based, so it doesn't matter if it's a railgun or a blackpowder cannon or a laser - you give it the traits that emulate what you want it to do, and *that* helps define the limitations of the weapon system. For example, a black powder cannon might have the characteristics Recoil (cannot be fired on the move), Indirect Fire, Power Hungry (which means that it takes several actions between each use) and a low Accuracy. A Laser might have HEAT (making it able to be more effective against HEAT Vulnerable vehicles or less effective against HEAT Resistant vehicles), Attenuating Damage (damage drops off with range), Power Hungry (in this case representing the amount of power it requires), and a high accuracy.
With the lack of hit locations like other systems, vehicular damage is expressed through the destruction or impairment of subsystems (a mirror of the way personal scale wounds work).
It does have some drawbacks - the vehicles may not be "meaty" enough for some people - much of what might translate into a system like GURPS Vehicles (such as powerplant type, drivetrain, etc) is "fluff" in SilCore. It also takes some work without the benefit of hard examples to make the decisions when designing a vehicle. It is possible to build a Yugo-sized, heavily armored tank capable of destroying entire city-blocks and flying at supersonic speeds - the resulting design would just be hideously expensive if you bother to do the cost calculations.
Mekton Zeta started as a game for building giant robots and fighting them against one another, and it shows. Construction in Mekton Zeta Plus (the advanced construction rules) is a mini-game in its own right as the designer balances weight, space and cost. Vehicles are designed by stacking "servos" together, such as torso, arms, legs, heads, etc. Each servo has a value for how much punishment it can take, how much space it has inside of it, and how much it weighs. From there, you can design the weapons, add armor, put in sensors, movement systems, special systems, etc. Weapon design is partially effects based - there are broad categories like beam weapon, projectile weapon, missile, melee, etc. each with their own drawbacks and benefits. There is a way of giving weapons special characteristics that are not listed, as well as adjusting the space taken and the wieght of the final design (which increases cost).
Mekton Zeta suffers from several problems. The first is that it really only does mecha well. Yes, it can be used to design an economy automobile but it's just not optimized for it. There are a lot of front-loaded assumptions about the performance of a vehicle that make it difficult to deviate, especially with regards to mass, space, manueverability and speed. There are systems for adjusting these traits, but the adjustments only fall within a particular range. It should also be noted that the restrictions are not necessarily "realistic" and are fairly arbitrary.
Mecha design can also be quite time consuming, especially for unusual or complex designs. It can take a lot of hammering and tinkering to get existing designs to work properly. My favorite two were recreating the Tomahawk Destroid from Macross - which packs way more weapons in it's small frame then Mekton assumes is normally possible - and the Monster Destroid - which required for me to mount weapons of a larger scale than the design itself due to Mekton's scaling rules.
Finally, Mekton could never quite decide if it was an rpg or a wargame and it shows in the combat system. Whereas in SilCore (especially with use of optional systems like the Dramatic Tactical System) a hexmap or miniatures is not required, in Mekton Zeta it is almost a must. Yet the Interlock combat system presented in Mekton Zeta is not the precise rules set one would expect from a wargame.
With that said, I love both games for what they do better than pretty much everything else out there. For "realistic" games that feature vehicles I tend to pick SilCore (as I do for pretty much any game where the characters fall roughly within human norms, which includes most modern day, near future, science fiction or dark fantasy I woudl want to run). For "super robot" games I tend to pick Mekton.