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Author Topic: The OneDnD Agenda  (Read 36654 times)

corwinofamber

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #435 on: October 10, 2022, 12:49:07 AM »
Didn't watch the video but have read the UA articles. Just seems like some cosmetic differences to the rules.

On the one hand, I can see the idea where assignable bonuses kind of negate meaningful choice... but on the other should simple +1/+2's or whatever really be the hallmark of what makes one species/class/background different from another? If you are rolling stats (and you should be rolling --- down the line even) what's the difference from being an Elf and getting a +2 to stat vs rolling high on that stat?

Stat bonuses by race is meaningless anyway.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that the game belongs to the table. I believe that once I buy a rulebook to an RPG, that game no longer belongs to the author... it belongs to ME. It is MY game not the author's and not anyone else's.

So let each table who plays D&D decide what it means to be a certain race or background or species. If that means one table allows +2 to whatever no matter what race, then so be it. The more free-form bonus assignments (now based on backgrounds, I think) are good for tables that want to go that route... tables that don't can hard code those bonuses (do what they want with the rules... its their game).

Anything that gives more options to more diverse styles of play is good for the game. Open the rules up for these possibilities and let each group decide for themselves what to do with it.

Osman Gazi

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #436 on: October 10, 2022, 09:06:21 AM »
Yeah, I wouldn't go as far as Omega on wishing suffering on others over online disagreements. But I do find it worrisome that so many people here like to downplay the real scope of the Satanic Panic when so many people's lives were ruined because of it. But hey, their church didn't bring up D&D specifically, therefore persecution outside the hobby never happened and people didn't have their lives destroyed over false accusations. And anyone saying otherwise was brainwashed by the media and didn't experience religious lunatics personally.

Interestingly enough I've seen similar attempts to downplay what's going on with the woke hysteria in the "left" by less politically involved people, or those who still cling to the "left-wing" label and are in denial, who want to believe that it's only a fringe minority or an astroturf movement taken out of context by equally bad right-wing media. As opposed to a valid concern that has many former leftists running away from the left (myself included) or getting cancelled and treated like Nazis for not towing the line, or commiting some faux pas that gets blown out of proportion. Yet I doubt many here would award the same courtesy to such attempts to salvage the "left" as they do to Christianity's involvement in the Satanic Panic.

Particular people being strongly affected versus widespread are two different things.  You are talking depth instead of scope.  The Satanic panic was sharp and pointed where it was applied, but it was limited in scope--not least because not all that many people agreed with it, it was not strongly backed by any institution, and the institutions that did back it at all did so inconsistently, and it simply wasn't on the radar at all for the vast majority of people.  Some people cling to the idea that it was wide spread for who knows what reason.  Mainly, I think it's a crutch to hide insecurity.  It's telling that 30 years after it is no longer a thing, there can't be a discussion about the woke without it getting brought up as somehow equal. 

Meanwhile, the woke infects academia, the media, many parts of politics, culture, the arts, business (especially HR departments), religious faiths, and even sports.  It's pervasive, and actively after everyone.  To equate that to the scope of the Satanic panic is the height of delusion and blindness.   It seems there are always an awful lot of people that have never met any conservative Christian that are sure that everything said about them must be true, almost as if it was necessary for their own identity for it to be that way.  Hmm.

Well stated.

I think whenever we personally experience something negative and painful, no matter how rare the event may be, it's hard to minimize.  Saying "well, most people haven't been hurt so it's ok" is not a reaction that most people will have.

The Satanic Panic was a real thing...and it wasn't just conservative Churches that were involved--as I mentioned earlier, the Geraldo special on Satanism in 1988 was an example of how popular culture also got involved.

But the Satanic Panic was more than just "D&D is evil".  Probably the most consequential thing that happened during that period of time were false accusations of ritual satanic abuse that was "uncovered" in "recovered memory" therapy.  Real people's real lives were significantly harmed in a permanent was because of these accusations that, in some cases, resulted in going to court, even being found guilty and spending time in prison, before the falsity of the accusations was exposed.  These are real cases that you can google and read about yourself.  During that time period, though, most parents and Daycare workers weren't accused of Ritual Satanic Abuse, and the public largely knew of this only because it was talked about in the media--it was the popular thing to be outraged about (the alleged abuse--you were a "denier" if you questioned some of the outrageous stories that were shared.)

Now, were some members of the hobby negatively affected?  Certainly, and if you happened to be the target of some of that, it was miserable--especially if you were a kid going through that, who found a refuge from the bullying and teasing of being a Nerdy kid--or even just a refuge from the mundanity of life.  Bullying kids is one of the lowest things you can do--sadly largely expected from other kids, but when it's from adults that supposedly know better, it's even worse.

Was the "Satanic Panic" in the form of "D&D is Evil" widespread?  I have no idea.  I've seen no stats, only hearing personal stories, which yeah, sucked in a big way.  Were a significant number of gamers harmed by this?  Well, one is too much, of course...but what would be "significant", any way?  Over 50%?  25?  10%?  Frankly, it doesn't matter.  People were hurt, and that was bad, and if we can learn anything from it to stop it from happening again, that would be good.

As far as "wokism"--both pro- and anti- is one of the major talking points today...heck, I found this particular forum as I was looking into wokism in the gaming world.  It's a hot topic here, mostly from an anti-wokist perspective (and frankly that's one reason I like it).  Now, maybe because the Internet and Social Media is a thing, or maybe because I'm older, but I see in the broader culture and in gaming in particular the "wokist" agenda seems far more pernicious and widespread than it seemed the "Satanic Panic" was in the 80s and 90s.  You didn't have major corporations hiring DEI officers at six-figure salaries and a whole month (along with several "movable feasts") dedicated to fighting Satanism in D&D.  It's a cultural and political movement that's much, MUCH more consequential than the "D&D is Devil-Spawn" ever was.  Even though 30-40 years ago the Church was far more influential in society than it is today, the anti-D&D movement never had a tenth of the influence as wokism does today.

Does that mean we should minimize the "D&D=Satanism" form of the "Satanic Panic" of the 80s and 90s, merely because Wokism today is worse?  No, that would be stupid.  We shouldn't dismiss the negative experiences that people who went through it had. 

In so far as long-term affects on society at large or the hobby in particular, it would be hard to convince me that the "Satanic Panic" caused greater, longer-lasting harm than Wokism is currently causing.  But it's stupid and illogical to say that someone hasn't personally been harmed by something because (a) fewer people have been harmed by it than something else, or (b) you weren't personally affected.  It's like saying "male breast cancer isn't a big deal" simply because there aren't that many guys affected by it.  If you're one of them, it's no joke and can't be minimized.

Ruprecht

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #437 on: October 10, 2022, 09:30:29 AM »
but on the other should simple +1/+2's or whatever really be the hallmark of what makes one species/class/background different from another? If you are rolling stats (and you should be rolling --- down the line even) what's the difference from being an Elf and getting a +2 to stat vs rolling high on that stat?

Stat bonuses by race is meaningless anyway.
Not really, stat bonuses ensure that a Half Orc is stronger and dumber in general than an average human and a Halfling is weaker and more nimble. They provide a meaningful choice during character selection. Without them every race has the exact same average and you might as well get rid of races altogether. There is a problem that I think they spiked the human average with +1 bonus across the board or something but that's a different story.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #438 on: October 10, 2022, 10:11:11 AM »
What advice, please elaborate.

I don’t trust this place to discuss it in good faith.

VisionStorm

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #439 on: October 10, 2022, 10:32:07 AM »
As far as "wokism"--both pro- and anti- is one of the major talking points today...heck, I found this particular forum as I was looking into wokism in the gaming world. It's a hot topic here, mostly from an anti-wokist perspective (and frankly that's one reason I like it). Now, maybe because the Internet and Social Media is a thing, or maybe because I'm older, but I see in the broader culture and in gaming in particular the "wokist" agenda seems far more pernicious and widespread than it seemed the "Satanic Panic" was in the 80s and 90s. You didn't have major corporations hiring DEI officers at six-figure salaries and a whole month (along with several "movable feasts") dedicated to fighting Satanism in D&D. It's a cultural and political movement that's much, MUCH more consequential than the "D&D is Devil-Spawn" ever was. Even though 30-40 years ago the Church was far more influential in society than it is today, the anti-D&D movement never had a tenth of the influence as wokism does today.

It IS more widespread because of social media. Elements of what eventually became "wokism" arguably existed since at least the 90 or before that, yet they never became prevalent or metastasize the way we see today till the 2010s, which was the decade that social media and search engines started employing algorithmic manipulation of your feed and search results. This was also around the time that "news" sites and blogs started churning outrage stories with an identity-based angle, likely motivated more by financial reasons than ideology (although both were likely factors IMO), because clickbait drew in greater traffic to their sites, which they relied on for revenue.

I used to be very active in leftist and progressive social media (Facebook primarily) since the late 2000s and saw the change happen over time. First it started with left-anarchist and socialist pages promoting "Intersectional Feminism" and pushing everyone to identify as a Feminist, or you weren't a real leftist. From there it spread to more mainstream progressive pages, particularly around 2014, which is when the whole thing really blew up, and started spreading into video games in particular when GamerGate happened, although elements of it were arguably already present in TTRPGs by that time. It wasn't till around the 2016 election that wokism really spread to the rest of the "Liberal" sphere and became mainstream, by which time algorithmic manipulation of online resources was in full throttle, and Facebook's unethical Emotional Contagion study was revealed, which proved that they could reliably manipulate people's emotional state through social media post and the manipulation of your feed.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1747016115579531

All of this crap has likely been exacerbated by social media and search engines in ways that were never possible at any other point in human history.

VisionStorm

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #440 on: October 10, 2022, 10:42:21 AM »
but on the other should simple +1/+2's or whatever really be the hallmark of what makes one species/class/background different from another? If you are rolling stats (and you should be rolling --- down the line even) what's the difference from being an Elf and getting a +2 to stat vs rolling high on that stat?

Stat bonuses by race is meaningless anyway.
Not really, stat bonuses ensure that a Half Orc is stronger and dumber in general than an average human and a Halfling is weaker and more nimble. They provide a meaningful choice during character selection. Without them every race has the exact same average and you might as well get rid of races altogether. There is a problem that I think they spiked the human average with +1 bonus across the board or something but that's a different story.

This has been discussed to death in other threads, including some specifically about the topic of ability modifiers, and the impact of Ability modifiers in average scores in particular is minimal. The difference between a score of 10 vs 12 ain't huge, and between 10 vs 11 nonexistent. It's really at the upper ends where a +2 bonus becomes palpable (allowing you to exceed human maximums) and a +1 bonus is only relevant if you rolled an odd score.

Also (and this has also been covered before), races have way more features than just ability modifiers, specially in the playtest material being discussed. So the idea that you might as well get rid of races if you don't include ability modifiers specifically is absurd. There are loads of ways to provide distinction between races beyond just ability modifiers as the supposed end all be all.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #441 on: October 10, 2022, 01:57:18 PM »
But the Satanic Panic was more than just "D&D is evil".  Probably the most consequential thing that happened during that period of time were false accusations of ritual satanic abuse that was "uncovered" in "recovered memory" therapy.  Real people's real lives were significantly harmed in a permanent was because of these accusations that, in some cases, resulted in going to court, even being found guilty and spending time in prison, before the falsity of the accusations was exposed.  These are real cases that you can google and read about yourself.  During that time period, though, most parents and Daycare workers weren't accused of Ritual Satanic Abuse, and the public largely knew of this only because it was talked about in the media--it was the popular thing to be outraged about (the alleged abuse--you were a "denier" if you questioned some of the outrageous stories that were shared.)


Yep, knew about that already.  But that's getting kind of off-topic for this forum, because the daycare thing was more about psych workers touted as experts when they weren't, and out of control prosecutor office trying to make a reputation. 

As I said earlier, this is the one thing that the woke and crazy church ladies share (along with a host of others):  There are some people who want to control others, and they'll use any means in their power to do so.  No doubt, some of the folks pushing the OneD&D thing really believe its for the good of the hobby.  You have to be really screwed up to think that, but people have been that screwed up before, and will be again.  There are others pushing it not because they believe it is helpful or even useful for some cause but because they just want to control things, and anything they can't control, they want to burn down.

Recognizing that is not minimizing.  X being horrible to Y is ... X being horrible to Y, full stop.  Now, if we want to do so anything constructive about it, it starts with focusing on X and Y.

rkhigdon

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #442 on: December 09, 2022, 05:57:19 PM »

Chris24601

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #443 on: December 10, 2022, 08:57:11 AM »
Interesting article that seems relevant to the discussion.

https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives
Pretty much confirms what we know… D&Done is intended to primarily be an online microtransaction means of extracting money from players with poor impulse control… with an expectation of greater profits even as the economy is imploding. It’s going to make 4E look fantastic by comparison.

Shipyard Locked

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #444 on: December 10, 2022, 11:11:37 AM »
because the daycare thing was more about psych workers touted as experts when they weren't, and out of control prosecutor office trying to make a reputation.

Here's a pretty good short documentary on the recovered memory scandal that fed into parts of the Satanic Panic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqczlYOdi8s

Mistwell

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #445 on: December 10, 2022, 11:43:05 AM »
Interesting article that seems relevant to the discussion.

https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives
Pretty much confirms what we know… D&Done is intended to primarily be an online microtransaction means of extracting money from players with poor impulse control… with an expectation of greater profits even as the economy is imploding. It’s going to make 4E look fantastic by comparison.

Nothing even vaguely like that is in the actual audio. Literally the opposite was mentioned - they say that MtG is one dimensional focused on collectors and so they focused on those collectors. D&D has much higher brand recognition and they are going in four directions with D&D with a much more broad focus - movies, video games, board games, app games, licensed products. NO microtransactions were mentioned or implied other than the existing D&D Beyond ones (which people love - you can buy just the subclass you want from a book rather than the entire book at a much lower price than the entire book and people love that).  They just have a lot of players buying little and want to offer a lot more stuff those players might want because the brand is strong. So expect your line of official D&D halloween costumes and behold sheets and all sorts of consumer products.

But, it's the Internet. So stupid shit gets said and passed around and called "pretty much confirmed" and people nod their heads like that's true and then if it turns out to have been false nobody is ever held accountable because that comment was a year ago and who cares right? I mean, why actually listen to what was said when you can just make shit up for clicks and back pats, right?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 11:48:34 AM by Mistwell »

Jaeger

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #446 on: December 10, 2022, 06:20:01 PM »
Interesting article that seems relevant to the discussion.

https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives
Pretty much confirms what we know… D&Done is intended to primarily be an online microtransaction means of extracting money from players with poor impulse control… with an expectation of greater profits even as the economy is imploding. It’s going to make 4E look fantastic by comparison.

Nothing even vaguely like that is in the actual audio. Literally the opposite was mentioned ...

But, it's the Internet. So stupid shit gets said and passed around and called "pretty much confirmed" and people nod their heads like that's true and then if it turns out to have been false nobody is ever held accountable because that comment was a year ago and who cares right? I mean, why actually listen to what was said when you can just make shit up for clicks and back pats, right?

Let's try this whole 'listening to what was said' thing out here...

Here is an except of what was actually said beyond the first clickbait line:
Quote
https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives
“D&D has never been more popular, and we have really great fans and engagement,” Williams began. “But the brand is really under monetised.” (The clickbait. But wait for it...)
...
"The executives are less worried about design than installing more on-ramps for players to spend their money. Williams mentioned that while dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up “the largest share of our paying players”. An investment in digital, she posits, will allow Wizards of the Coast to “unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games”.

Specifically at 34:08 in:
https://kvgo.com/ubs/hasbro-inc-webinar

"...digital will allow us options to create rewarding experiences post-sale that helps us unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games, where more than 70% of revenue in digital games comes post-sale. The speed of digital means that we are able to expand from what is essentially a yearly book publishing model, to a reoccurring spending environment, and we're offering content that we know fans want."

Microtran$action$ for the win are in. This is not mysterious, or hard to grasp.

Unless you are a midwit that didn't listen to what was actually said...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 06:24:49 PM by Jaeger »
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

Eirikrautha

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #447 on: December 10, 2022, 10:30:49 PM »
Interesting article that seems relevant to the discussion.

https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives
Pretty much confirms what we know… D&Done is intended to primarily be an online microtransaction means of extracting money from players with poor impulse control… with an expectation of greater profits even as the economy is imploding. It’s going to make 4E look fantastic by comparison.

Nothing even vaguely like that is in the actual audio. Literally the opposite was mentioned ...

But, it's the Internet. So stupid shit gets said and passed around and called "pretty much confirmed" and people nod their heads like that's true and then if it turns out to have been false nobody is ever held accountable because that comment was a year ago and who cares right? I mean, why actually listen to what was said when you can just make shit up for clicks and back pats, right?

Let's try this whole 'listening to what was said' thing out here...

Here is an except of what was actually said beyond the first clickbait line:
Quote
https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives
“D&D has never been more popular, and we have really great fans and engagement,” Williams began. “But the brand is really under monetised.” (The clickbait. But wait for it...)
...
"The executives are less worried about design than installing more on-ramps for players to spend their money. Williams mentioned that while dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up “the largest share of our paying players”. An investment in digital, she posits, will allow Wizards of the Coast to “unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games”.

Specifically at 34:08 in:
https://kvgo.com/ubs/hasbro-inc-webinar

"...digital will allow us options to create rewarding experiences post-sale that helps us unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games, where more than 70% of revenue in digital games comes post-sale. The speed of digital means that we are able to expand from what is essentially a yearly book publishing model, to a reoccurring spending environment, and we're offering content that we know fans want."

Microtran$action$ for the win are in. This is not mysterious, or hard to grasp.

Unless you are a midwit that didn't listen to what was actually said...
Mistwell is no midwit.  He is, however, perfectly willing to claim that what was clearly said in the article wasn't (or even that it didn't mean what it clearly states).  What his agenda is, I don't know (and I doubt you'll get an honest answer from him), but his response is not a function of stupidity.  It's premeditated.

It's clear to everyone who reads that quote that WotC is hoping to get more players buying stuff on D&DBeyond, as opposed to the DMs who tend to buy and share.  Whether that material is purely cosmetic or integral to play is up for debate (but WotC has done nothing to justify lending them the benefit of the doubt), but they are very clear that they want to make more money from the players via the digital market and tools.  Mistwell is just hoping that no one will actually read the interview to see it says the opposite of what he claimed...

Osman Gazi

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #448 on: December 12, 2022, 12:06:04 PM »
because the daycare thing was more about psych workers touted as experts when they weren't, and out of control prosecutor office trying to make a reputation.

Here's a pretty good short documentary on the recovered memory scandal that fed into parts of the Satanic Panic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqczlYOdi8s

Great video.

I see this even used in the realm of Gender Dysphoria today--"I remember at age two knowing that I was really a girl, even though I had a penis."  But ideologically, "Affirmative Care" is the rule among North American psychologists and medical people, despite any other existing conditions (and, just like the video pointed out, there's a lot more money to be made in "Affirmative Care" than in talk therapy to help a client process other issues). 

And yet, the Woke crowd (at WOTC or the larger gaming industry) has so bought into this ideology that even asking simple questions is considered a Transphobic attack...just like those who challenged "Recovered Memory" as not supported by the evidence were accused of really being in league with Satanists and child abusers.  It's a mad world, and extremely disheartening to see it in our hobby (especially considering what we saw 30-40 years ago).