Quote from: Marleycat;800977How about this fuck off? I understand perfectly it's you that doesn't and keep putting up more inane crap that most players wouldn't care about (like me) because a decent DM would have made it a non-issue in the first place. As I said before at this point you're just trolling so I'll troll back for the lolz.

I am merely saying that different players have different ideas about fairness.
What is fair to Sacro might be terrible for Will or Keiro. If you DM that game you try to hit a level that is reasonable and keeps most folk happy.

A good GM accommodates the people at his table.

Different tastes are a good thing

Quote from: jibbajibba;800984I am merely saying that different players have different ideas about fairness.
What is fair to Sacro might be terrible for Will or Keiro. If you DM that game you try to hit a level that is reasonable and keeps most folk happy.

A good GM accommodates the people at his table.

Different tastes are a good thing

If everyone had the same opportunity, that's what "fair" means.  If someone got luckier and has a stat with a +1 bonus higher than the person who chose to go array instead?  That's not unfair, it's luck.  And guess what?  The entire game is based off of luck or why have dice at all?  If they get upset and think it's not fair, then that speaks volumes to me about what kind of person you're dealing with.

Seriously, people need to stop using words in ways that don't fit what they mean.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800972Let me reiterate my point, because it seems to be getting lost.  You keep throwing out these values that realistically will never happen.  I.e., sure, I can see some players not being happy if another player shows up with a 20, 19, 18, 18, 16, 14.

But that doesn't happen.  What may happen (again, random rolls result in lower stats as well) is something like 17, 15, 14, 14, 12, 8.

So when you compare the results from actual random roll, compared to the non-random methods, are you expecting me to believe I will feel cheated and gimped compared to the above?  If I didn't even notice the difference in the much larger gap in my OP, I certainly wouldn't notice the more likely result above.

TL;DR: If the basis of your argument as to why random rolling is unfair based on a result that doens't actually every happen, rethink your argument.

So here you go PC in my game rolled - using 4d6 keep 3 arrange to taste.

#1

7, 16, 3, 6, 9, 13

Would that stat array have been fair next to a "16 16 12 16 13 17" (see the I rolled too good thread)
Any less fair than 6 18s versus that second set of numbers?
I could have said well tough mate you rolled now you have shit stats but you rolled like everyone else so man the fuck up.

I allowed them to reroll.
they got
#2
8, 14, 11, 7, 11, 9

I could have said stop being a loser and take these you had 2 changes to roll .... wanker.

Or

I allowed them to keep the best 6 out of 12 and rearrange.

Now that is a ludicrously generous system compared to everyone else. Out of the rest of them I allowed one guy to reroll an 8 as they had another 8 and only 1 stat over 15.

so for these 6 PCs I have I have allowed 1 an Uber random generation model. I have allowed 1 other to "cheat" the system and the other four got what they rolled.
Entirely unfair by any stretch of the term. However.... I made a judgement based on each player, 3 of whom I had actually never met before, and determined that they would all be totally cool with the outcome. They were.

The odd thing was that guy that rolled dire stats , twice, actually decided to roll for his HP once he reached 2nd level. As a Fighter he got a 2.... I made him keep it of course.

Quote from: Will;8009743d6 in order, 5 runs:

8, 8, 14, 8, 17, 13
10, 9, 13, 7, 12, 10
10, 10, 9, 12, 9, 15
10, 4, 5, 9, 8, 10
12, 6, 8, 11, 8, 17

I suspect person #4, with a max stat of 10, might feel a little outmatched by ... well, everyone else, particularly #1.

OMG my elf would be crying

Quote from: Marleycat;800977How about this fuck off? I understand perfectly it's you that doesn't and keep putting up more inane crap that most players wouldn't care about (like me) because a decent DM would have made it a non-issue in the first place. As I said before at this point you're just trolling so I'll troll back for the lolz.

And yet you have previously said that you hated to use rolled stats cos you are so unlucky and prefer to use an array of stats to make sure you get a reasonable PC.

I think you are being inconsistent.

If I am correct Sacro is saying fair is you all rolled the same dice so man up and take the result. He is entirely right.

He goes on to say that players that cry because their random stats weren't equal to the other players are less worthy and indicates the statistical variations are slight.

Well they don't have to be slight they can be huge (see example above) . Are they still fair, sure.
Might some players get upset of course, so why not accommodate them ? It is just a game of pretending to be elves after all

So I was going to chime in about my personal experiences with perceived "unfairness" or at least perceived "well my character can only do this one thing and not as well as the other characters and that one PC can do everything," but I figured as they were all Pathfinder related and weren't really pertinent to 5e and its bounded accuracy and divorcement of the number of skills known from intelligence.

But then well...I don't even known.

The short and skinny is that part of the POINT of R4k3 IS the higher chance that the PCs have at least one high stat and several above "average" stats. Bringing up how you are "supposed to feel cheated" when you obviously don't is almost as daft as stretching all the way to "rolling for random levels" and "well if you use 3d6 in order."

But this right here

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800985If everyone had the same opportunity, that's what "fair" means.  If someone got luckier and has a stat with a +1 bonus higher than the person who chose to go array instead?  That's not unfair, it's luck.  And guess what?  The entire game is based off of luck or why have dice at all?  If they get upset and think it's not fair, then that speaks volumes to me about what kind of person you're dealing with.

Seriously, people need to stop using words in ways that don't fit what they mean.

THAT is the point of using any kind of random character gen.
It is FAIR because everyone got to roll their stats.
It should also be fair because the group should have decided either by consensus or just agreement to roll up stats.
It is not like someone is going to hold you hostage, forcing you to play in a game where you have roll your stats.

The fact that I *could* win the lottery makes it patently unfair, somehow. So we need to all just play the same numbers every week in ensure equity.

Seriously, this thread is idiotic. If you don't like random rolls, don't fucking use them. Saying random rolls aren't "fair" reveals major issues with comprehending the word "random".

Quote from: misterguignol;800988OMG my elf would be crying

Yeah, but your elf's brother cries more tears than him. How do you feel now!

He's not even the best at crying in his own family. Ha!

Quote from: One Horse Town;800993Yeah, but your elf's brother cries more tears than him. How do you feel now!

He's not even the best at crying in his own family. Ha!

An elf who doesn't cry enough?  Clearly the only answer is to suicide that worthless PC for one who cries better.

Quote from: Brad;800992The fact that I *could* win the lottery makes it patently unfair, somehow. So we need to all just play the same numbers every week in ensure equity.

Seriously, this thread is idiotic. If you don't like random rolls, don't fucking use them. Saying random rolls aren't "fair" reveals major issues with comprehending the word "random".

The thread is basically 'if you don't like random rolls, you are a fucking idiot.'

Surprisingly, some people take issue with that!

Quote from: Will;800996The thread is basically 'if you don't like random rolls, you are a fucking idiot.'

Surprisingly, some people take issue with that!

Dude.  Seriously.  Stop with this bullshit already.  No one has said that.  What people (at least me) have said is that if you think you're being gimped or treated unfairly because someone else has a higher stat, then that doesn't make sense to blame it on random stat rolling.  As of yet, no one has been able to show why it is unfair or how you're being gimped.  At least not with scenarios that will actually happen in a game, as opposed to these huge exaggerations that never actually happen.

Your insistance with this line of strawman argument is rapidly deteriorating any credibility you may have had.

Quote from: Marleycat;800979How would you know? And what DM wouldn't allow for some sort of reroll? Especially if you're using such a restrictive chargen method not even listed as an option in 5e. (Most experienced players would ask or just be Opa and not care). In otherwords it's a situation unlikely to happen in an actual game.

Well, I find it weird when people want a random system... and then for a bunch of exceptions when the results go bad.

It seems to me that what many random folks want is random distribution, not random point totals (which, as I've pointed out plenty of times, is fairly easy to separate)

But if you actually have a guy with a 17 in primary stat and another with 10... I think it'd be reasonably obvious, particularly if they are similar characters.

If 17-guy is a melee type, she has a +3 over the 10 guy.

Although in 5e, to be fair, the person with the 10 can get a lot more bang out of magic items and ability score bonuses. After a few boosts, she could catch up to the person with the 17 (assuming both shoot to hit 20); the person with a 17 would then have been able to boost a secondary stat, but that's probably less bang for your buck.


So 5e, on the one hand, makes a stat difference more noticeable (because of bounded accuracy and less stacking nonsense), but on the other hand the stat 20 cap and the amount of ability score increases help make up for weak stats.

Quote from: One Horse Town;800993Yeah, but your elf's brother cries more tears than him. How do you feel now!

He's not even the best at crying in his own family. Ha!

I feel like my inner Gary is crying.

It's almost like people think you can't ever just roll up a new set of stats for your character if their stats suck.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;801003It's almost like people think you can't ever just roll up a new set of stats for your character if their stats suck.

Did you read my entire post?

If you really like random generation but you don't want 'the stats to suck,' maybe you don't want random total, you want random distribution.

Which, as I've said elsewhere, is easy to do AND have a consistent point total.

Methods:
Use standard array, or maybe select one of several balanced arrays. Roll to determine which ability you put each score into (maybe, if you have multiple arrays, randomly choose which array you use, too)

Roll 3d6 in order. Check total. If total is too high, randomly remove points until it isn't. If total is too low, randomly add points.


There are other ways, if people care I can outline them.