Just as a reminder, as of Savage Worlds Adventure Edition, Red has a "player" and it's a little girl in a cancer ward.

That's one of the big reasons she doesn't dress as "sexy" anymore.

I for one don't have any issues with PEG marketing themselves as the family friendly rpg system either. They have always drawn the line at hard R content.

Edit: Gabe, who always plays the Terry Crews looking character is a little boy in the same ward and the GM is a volunteer at the hospital.

Edit 2: PEG's products are written by people that have kids and often jobs outside of the industry. Savage Worlds is literally made for the working adult with a family.

It puts them in a distinct category that's different from all the childless weirdos who make things like FATE, Powered by Apocalypse, 5th edition and every other darling game the Big Purple likes from week to week.

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 03, 2024, 04:12:16 PMJust as a reminder, as of Savage Worlds Adventure Edition, Red has a "player" and it's a little girl in a cancer ward.

That's one of the big reasons she doesn't dress as "sexy" anymore.

I for one don't have any issues with PEG marketing themselves as the family friendly rpg system either. They have always drawn the line at hard R content.

Edit: Gabe, who always plays the Terry Crews looking character is a little boy in the same ward and the GM is a volunteer at the hospital.

Edit 2: PEG's products are written by people that have kids and often jobs outside of the industry. Savage Worlds is literally made for the working adult with a family.

It puts them in a distinct category that's different from all the childless weirdos who make things like FATE, Powered by Apocalypse, 5th edition and every other darling game the Big Purple likes from week to week.

Is that in the core book or the mini settings guide somewhere? Because I didn't know that, or had forgotten, but now that you bring it up, this isn't the first time I've seen that tidbit about the kids in the cancer ward.

You bring up a very good point, though. A lot of the books give off the distinct vibe that Shane played Savage Worlds with his kids. I wouldn't be surprised if Clint had, either.

Quote from: tenbones on May 03, 2024, 10:45:35 AMIt brings up an interesting question - are any of you boycotting Savage Worlds over this? Not judging, just curious.

I haven't been impressed with the quality of Savage Worlds supplements, so I'm less and less inclined to buy more of them - but that has nothing to do with illustrations of Red or the Confederacy in Deadlands. I'm still enjoying the core system, and continuing to use it for games.

Regarding the Sci-Fi Companion - from the Table of Contents, it doesn't look like there is anything about hacking or cyberspace in there. I'm considering running a Murderbot game (based on the novels) using Savage Worlds, but my main trouble in doing so is the hacking, which is really important to the books.

Quote from: Corolinth on May 03, 2024, 01:58:18 PMShane's idea for Deadlands is not too different from Shadowrun, except it happens at Gettysburg rather than the end of the Mayan calendar. The Confederacy surviving was his answer to, "Well how would this play out if zombies suddenly appeared at Gettysburg?" It wasn't a Confederate victory, rather the Union and the Confederacy had to join together to fight the zombies. Then there's a Cold War after that because both governments were more concerned with keeping a lid on the whole zombies thing to prevent a panic.

Quote from: Corolinth on May 03, 2024, 01:58:18 PMBasically, after 25 years of posses playing his game and fighting against his bad guys, Shane appeases the woke mob by rewriting the setting so that all those heroes have dealt a major blow to the Reckoners. I can live with that. Yes, he caved to pressure, but he respected his fans.

I picked up the original Deadlands when it came out, and I investigated to play it, but eventually had too many problems with it. My issues were mostly with mechanics and implementation, but I also had some issues with the timeline.

The controversial part of the Deadlands Confederacy timeline is that Jefferson Davis outlawed slavery in 1864 - just a year after Gettysburg. That is more ridiculous than zombies. The whole purpose of the Civil War was to preserve slavery. It's written into most of the rebelling states' constitutions. If slavery was outlawed by decree of the Confederate president, then why would the states still rebel against the Union? It not only goes against slavery, it goes against state's rights.

The previous SFC had very simple hacking rules and, IIRC, said to check out Interface Zero for a more involved take on how to handle hacking. IZ's system is more complicated and fits that setting, but it may not translate well to other games.

I'd also look to see if you can get the free Daring Tales of the Sprawl rules from Triple Ace Games. Last I checked, you could still get it from their website's legacy games area. It has hacking rules that are a bit more in-depth than the SFC's but still easy to use.

Quote from: Brand55 on May 03, 2024, 05:23:23 PMThe previous SFC had very simple hacking rules and, IIRC, said to check out Interface Zero for a more involved take on how to handle hacking. IZ's system is more complicated and fits that setting, but it may not translate well to other games.

I'd also look to see if you can get the free Daring Tales of the Sprawl rules from Triple Ace Games. Last I checked, you could still get it from their website's legacy games area. It has hacking rules that are a bit more in-depth than the SFC's but still easy to use.

I wrote the Hacking rules for IZ 2.0 and they're definitely more geared towards that kind of setting. Lots of Augmented Reality style Hacking.

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 03, 2024, 07:53:38 PM

Quote from: Brand55 on May 03, 2024, 05:23:23 PMThe previous SFC had very simple hacking rules and, IIRC, said to check out Interface Zero for a more involved take on how to handle hacking. IZ's system is more complicated and fits that setting, but it may not translate well to other games.

I'd also look to see if you can get the free Daring Tales of the Sprawl rules from Triple Ace Games. Last I checked, you could still get it from their website's legacy games area. It has hacking rules that are a bit more in-depth than the SFC's but still easy to use.

I wrote the Hacking rules for IZ 2.0 and they're definitely more geared towards that kind of setting. Lots of Augmented Reality style Hacking.

Oh that's cool. IZ 2.0 was what I used to run a sci-fi home brew game. I tinkered with it a bit to make it more flavored for space adventures. Even had one character specialized in hacking. Was a nice supplement.

Quote from: Corolinth on May 03, 2024, 04:44:10 PMIs that in the core book or the mini settings guide somewhere? Because I didn't know that, or had forgotten, but now that you bring it up, this isn't the first time I've seen that tidbit about the kids in the cancer ward.

  It's in SWADE; to get it, you combine the marginal comments at the start of the book with the illustration at the very end, in the Index,

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 03, 2024, 07:53:38 PM

Quote from: Brand55 on May 03, 2024, 05:23:23 PMThe previous SFC had very simple hacking rules and, IIRC, said to check out Interface Zero for a more involved take on how to handle hacking. IZ's system is more complicated and fits that setting, but it may not translate well to other games.

I'd also look to see if you can get the free Daring Tales of the Sprawl rules from Triple Ace Games. Last I checked, you could still get it from their website's legacy games area. It has hacking rules that are a bit more in-depth than the SFC's but still easy to use.

I wrote the Hacking rules for IZ 2.0 and they're definitely more geared towards that kind of setting. Lots of Augmented Reality style Hacking.

Thanks! I downloaded the "Daring Tales of the Sprawl" rules. Those use the mass combat rules, which feels too sloggy for my tastes - with several repeated rolls required to get any effect.

I read about the Interface Zero hacking here:

https://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/hacking-interface-zero-2-0/

That sounds good to me, with possible immediate effect from a single roll. That sounds good to me. There should be some variety of hacking maneuvers, I would think - like trying for immediate effect vs getting a more secure hold, as well as defensive maneuvers against hacking.

In the Murderbot novels, cybernetic Security Units (SecUnit) have potential to be excellent hackers combining human direction with fast computerized action. The action scenes almost always have hacking going on simultaneous to physical action - and the SecUnit can take both actions simultaneously.

Quote from: tenbones on May 03, 2024, 10:45:35 AMIt brings up an interesting question - are any of you boycotting Savage Worlds over this? Not judging, just curious.

Nah, I'm not boycotting SW or Deadlands over it.  We've spoken previously about the fact that SW bounced off my home group hard, so I'm not really buying it regardless.  I just think it was a cowardly move to try and split the baby.  Either fess up that you are changing the setting because you don't want to get canceled, or stick to your guns.  But this whole, "No, really, guys!  We didn't change because of fear and pressure.  This was all.... planned!  Yeah, that's it; that's the ticket!" is just disrespectful of fans' intelligence.

I will also note that, in the late 80s and early 90s, the whole "alternate history" stuff really took off.  Harry Turtledove had a whole series of smash hit novels based on the "what if the Confederates won?" concept, and there wasn't the same Marxist intolerance of even hypothesizing something back then.  So, in some ways Deadlands was a product of its time.  I'm sure if Gary had never lost D&D, he'd be up against the wall today the same way that other TTRPG publishers are.  I'd like to think he'd tell them to get bent, but I'm not so sure.  You either die a hero or live to see yourself become the villain...

To be honest, SW's art has always been adequate at best, so it's tricky to tell if them making Red kinda fugly here and there was for social brownie points or just because they didn't hire a very good artist.  When it comes to dressing women in a setting, I follow the 'good for the goose' rule: If they're gonna dress up a guy in a furry diaper and some boots and maybe a helmet with horns on it and zilch else, then chainmail bikinis are on the table.  If men are dressed conservatively, women should be similar.  It's not difficult.

Off the top of my head, I'd say the best SW art would have to go to either Totems of the Dead or Beasts & Barbarians. Strangely enough, they're both sword and sorcery games with black and white art. Even with them, though, there are some pieces which are just okay at best.

Also Low Life, of course, but then the art there is actually very key to the setting given how the artist is also the game's creator.

I'm assuming this image was included because it's fucking rad.

  That whole volunteer GM'ing for two kids at the hospital did not land with me the way I think the people writing it wanted it to.  I would view that situation with a very high degree of skepticism and cynicism IRL.

Quote from: jhkim on May 03, 2024, 04:51:06 PMThe controversial part of the Deadlands Confederacy timeline is that Jefferson Davis outlawed slavery in 1864 - just a year after Gettysburg. That is more ridiculous than zombies. The whole purpose of the Civil War was to preserve slavery. It's written into most of the rebelling states' constitutions. If slavery was outlawed by decree of the Confederate president, then why would the states still rebel against the Union? It not only goes against slavery, it goes against state's rights.

Except that it's not that ridiculous.

The Slave Trade Act of 1794, signed into law by George Washington, begins the abolition of slavery in the United States by prohibiting ships built or outfitted in US ports from participating in the slave trade. By 1807, importing slaves is a federal crime. By the 1830s, when Britain starts using the Royal Navy to stamp out the slave trade, the United States Navy is already carrying out those activities in the Caribbean.

The overwhelming majority of southerners did not own slaves. Do you really think the masses were going to fight to protect the wealthy elite's right to something the rest of them could never attain, unless there were other, additional causes for the war? It was mostly about slavery, but there were other factors.

In 1864, the Union has already passed the Emancipation Proclamation. The South's secession hampers the USA's ability to police the Caribbean. That means Britain would have to spend additional resources in that part of the world. In our timeline, the war is rapidly speeding to a conclusion, but in the Deadlands timeline the Civil War has stalled out and therefore the South's secession is successful. They now have to contend with the fact that they're heavily reliant on cotton exports to a Europe that is banning slavery. They've got the Union to the north where slaves had already been escaping to for decades. Secession means that Dred Scott v. Sandford and the Fugitive Slave Act no longer apply, and the Emancipation Simply puts the final nail in that coffin. Not only does the Confederacy have to worry about a slave uprising, but they can guarantee that any slave uprising will get some kind of assistance from Union troops. A slave uprising that they can't afford to quell because their economy is in shambles and Europe won't buy their goods. Simply put, the Confederacy can't survive as an independent nation unless they get on board with banning slavery. The wealthy aristocrats are just going to suck it up and deal with it, because the common citizen doesn't own slaves and probably wants the war to be over so they can go back to their lives.

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 03, 2024, 04:12:16 PMJust as a reminder, as of Savage Worlds Adventure Edition, Red has a "player" and it's a little girl in a cancer ward.

That's one of the big reasons she doesn't dress as "sexy" anymore.

I for one don't have any issues with PEG marketing themselves as the family friendly rpg system either. They have always drawn the line at hard R content.

Edit: Gabe, who always plays the Terry Crews looking character is a little boy in the same ward and the GM is a volunteer at the hospital.

Edit 2: PEG's products are written by people that have kids and often jobs outside of the industry. Savage Worlds is literally made for the working adult with a family.

It puts them in a distinct category that's different from all the childless weirdos who make things like FATE, Powered by Apocalypse, 5th edition and every other darling game the Big Purple likes from week to week.

Good to know. They've said the "family friendly" thing a number of times on livestreams. I don't need a game company pushing Hard-R material in a setting at me. I can do that myself just fine.

For me I prefer third-party settings (including my own) over Pinnacles, I'm in it for the rules supplements which I bend and tweak for my own uses.