Quote from: NathanIW;733652Great post estar.  I also think metagame as a concept has gotten a bad rap.

While I do understnad that it works for other people, personally I intensely dislike metagaming for traditional tabletop RPGs.

Quote from: NathanIW;733652People act as if the character and what they know is a real thing that you can act out when it's actually always just the players making decisions in their brains, imagining and expressing what the character is like or does.  Even the most immersive in-character only game is going to have some meta based decisions going on.  

The discussion that goes on your head when trying to roleplay a different personality or background is no way the same as metagaming. That in your head discussion is defined by who the character is and his immediate circumstances. If you thinking about other considerations outside of the character then that metagaming.
 
Also understand that I realize that it not practical or possible to detail all aspects of a setting during a campaign. That sometimes detail needs to be created on the fly when called for. But I feel that mechanics to supply these types of detail is just needless complexity. If you need the contents of of peasant hovel just make up something reasonable. While the referee has the final say, I have no problem with a player saying "Hey Rob, you know X should be here." And me going "You are right, you find X."

I will add that one type of metagaming that does come up a fair amount is slanting your roleplaying so not to upset another player or to keep the group together. I know for many, like Old Geezer , the answer is don't game with people like that. Life is rarely that simple. sometimes avoiding certain actions is just plain courtesy if it touches on a known sensitive issue.

Quote from: Old One Eye;733553If the players are not interested in the secret political agendas of the bloodsuckers, then drop that like a hot coal.  If you want the players to drive the action, you have to go with what they are interested in.  Presumably there are things they like about modern day fantasy?  Riff off that and ignore the whole paying homage to a prince thing by placing the game in an area without a prince.

I usually play an occult investigation game using hunter the vigil. Either I use on of the factions or they are gumshoes. You can combine hunter with one of those night horror books or any other antagonist book for weird monsters. Or slasher for serial killers.

I also like to combine hunter with the book of spirits, because bad stuff leaves wounds in the spirit world attracting evil spirits. They eventually break through the barrier and enter the regular world, possibly possessing humans and doing evil stuff. Creating a vicious circle. That's really cool. Another option might be the God Machine Chronicle.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;733865I usually play an occult investigation game using hunter the vigil. Either I use on of the factions or they are gumshoes. You can combine hunter with one of those night horror books or any other antagonist book for weird monsters. Or slasher for serial killers.

I also like to combine hunter with the book of spirits, because bad stuff leaves wounds in the spirit world attracting evil spirits. They eventually break through the barrier and enter the regular world, possibly possessing humans and doing evil stuff. Creating a vicious circle. That's really cool. Another option might be the God Machine Chronicle.

WoD: Book of Spirits is one of my favorite resources. It's a great fit for Vigil, but I prefer to use it as a bestiary for Forsaken and Awakening games. You can even use it with oWoD in a pinch, just a matter of assigning a spiritual "alignment" (Wyrm, Weaver, Wyld) for some spirits.