Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;582410I placed the order and will see about SW Deluxe. If I need only a few of the core rules I probably won't have to get the actual book. Which, at 300+ pages, hardly seems like the relatively rules-light game everybody claims it is. I do hope I won't be disappointed but I found a SW to CineUni conversion somewhere on the web that I'll use in the worst case.

The SW Deluxe core rules are 192 pages at 6" x 9", not over 300. Savage World of Solomon Kane is over 300, yes, but that combines rules, setting book, monster book and about fifty or so mini-adventures which form a linked campaign.

Quote from: Grymbok;582417The SW Deluxe core rules are 192 pages at 6" x 9", not over 300. Savage World of Solomon Kane is over 300, yes, but that combines rules, setting book, monster book and about fifty or so mini-adventures which form a linked campaign.

I must have gotten some numbers mixed up there. Well, that's a relief.

And a lot of that 192 is sample adventures, optional setting rules, designer's notes sidebars and the like.

I'm reading Solomon Kane and so far it's pretty cool, but it says on pp. 53-54 under Range  that one inch equals 2 yards in the real world. But then it says that  to know the real world range of a weapon I have to multiply the ranges  by 2.5... To add to my confusion the resulting number is multiplied by 2  to get the real world range in yards...

The text in SW Deluxe is identical:

QuoteRanges are listed  in inches so that you can use a ruler to move, shoot, and fight on the  table-top with miniatures.
Each inch is equal to 2 yards in the real world, so that 5" is really 10 yards, or 30 feet.
Weapon  ranges are "effective" ranges for the table-top. If you need to know the  real world range of a weapon (for battles that don't take place on the  table-top, for instance), multiply each range bracket by 2.5. A tank  round with a Long range of 300, for example, has a "real world" Long  range of 750", or 1500 yards.

Furthermore on page 70 of Solomon Kane it says:

QuoteMovement, weapon ranges, and the like are listed in inches to help when playing with miniatures. In the "real world" each inch is equal to 2 yards.

And similarly, on page 64 of SW Deluxe:

QuoteBecause the game assumes you are using terrain or a battle-mat and standard 28mm miniatures, movement and weapon ranges are listed in inches. If you need to translate that to regular distance, each inch is equal to 2 yards.

Can someone clarify this confusing couple of paragraphs for me?  Basically, what I want to know is how to calculate real world weapons  ranges from the listed stats. Do I multiply by 2 or by 5 (i.e. 2 x 2.5)? :confused:

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;594306I'm reading Solomon Kane and so far it's pretty cool, but it says on pp. 53-54 under Range  that one inch equals 2 yards in the real world. But then it says that  to know the real world range of a weapon I have to multiply the ranges  by 2.5... To add to my confusion the resulting number is multiplied by 2  to get the real world range in yards...

Multiplying by 2 gives the effective range in yards. This distance is supposed to be the farthest that an averagely-trained soldier using that weapon is supposed to be able to hit a man-sized target consistently, and is thus the number used on the tabletop. Beyond this range, you can consider the odds of hitting a target are remote enough to not model on the tabletop

What the text in Deluxe is saying is that if you really need to know what the maximum (not effective) "real world" range is, multiply by 2.5 instead. This can be useful (I suppose) if you're fighting battles that aren't taking place on the tabletop and need to know precisely how far away someone has to be before that Howitzer can no longer be lobbing shells in their vicinity.

It's easy enough just to use the multiple by 2 rule if no one at your table cares about the difference between absolute and effective range. I always just multiply by 2, myself, and it's never been a problem.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;581628It's also a myth, as proven by this: http://mostunreadblogever.blogspot.com/p/savage-worlds-characters-are-all-same.html

It's a wonderful discussion but I really don't understand the wizard.  Wizard's have a ton of options for unique powers and I see none of them.  I mean I could understand that nobody can do everything, but no healing magic, no invisibility, no teleport, no quickness.  It seems odd not to play to these strengths.

Or did I miss something?

Quote from: Votan;594484It's a wonderful discussion but I really don't understand the wizard.  Wizard's have a ton of options for unique powers and I see none of them.  I mean I could understand that nobody can do everything, but no healing magic, no invisibility, no teleport, no quickness.  It seems odd not to play to these strengths.

Or did I miss something?

As I comment on the final advances, Mr. Wizard was the one I was the least pleased with, because I took my eye off the concept.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;594312(...)What the text in Deluxe is saying is that if you really need to know what the maximum (not effective) "real world" range is, multiply by 2.5 instead. This can be useful (I suppose) if you're fighting battles that aren't taking place on the tabletop and need to know precisely how far away someone has to be before that Howitzer can no longer be lobbing shells in their vicinity.

It's easy enough just to use the multiple by 2 rule if no one at your table cares about the difference between absolute and effective range. I always just multiply by 2, myself, and it's never been a problem.

The confusing part for me was that the example in the text I quoted has the range multiplied by 2 x 2.5, not by 2.5 instead of 2, which is what you are suggesting and would make much more sense.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;594507The confusing part for me was that the example in the text I quoted has the range multiplied by 2 x 2.5, not by 2.5 instead of 2, which is what you are suggesting and would make much more sense.

Maybe I misspoke... The absolute range is 2.5x longer than the effective range. the absolute range is "how far can the projectile travel" whereas the effective range is "how far could I reasonably shoot and expect to hit anything".

Really, though, you can just use effective range and be fine forever with the standard x2 calculation, I've been playing Savage Worlds for almost a decade now and have never had to bother with anything but the standard effective range. I'm honestly not sure why they even bothered with adding the "real world" range as they call it. I can't really think of more than one or two cases where it would matter at all. I have to think it was put in to placate gun bunnies who balked at the ranges given not being "realistic" or something.

So my advice is just ignore that very small part of the rules. Inches x 2 = yards is very very likely all you'll ever need. So don't sweat it. Just double the inches and use that. It works fine.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;594486As I comment on the final advances, Mr. Wizard was the one I was the least pleased with, because I took my eye off the concept.

Good point.

That being said, the way you did the other 4 characters was really, really useful for understanding how SW characters advance and differentiate themselves.  There does seem to be a massive trade-off between versitility and being really good at what you want to do.

The sniper is just scary and the leader is quite good at feeling like a leader.

Quote from: Votan;594571Good point.

That being said, the way you did the other 4 characters was really, really useful for understanding how SW characters advance and differentiate themselves.  There does seem to be a massive trade-off between versitility and being really good at what you want to do.

It's not massive no, because of how the competence curve works in Savage Worlds. Obviously a specialized character will always be better at their specialty, but there isn't a necessity to specialize in order to be good at something, either. I think Tommy specialized deliberately to point out how different he could make the characters, something that would be harder with characters with a broader focus.

Ultimately, since there is no cap on advancement, you don't need to top out where Tommy topped his character's out at, either, so you could have a gentler specialization curve, or switch specializations after a certain point, etc. there is no absolute limit on advancement. And Savage Worlds is a great system if you want a generalist character and a generalist wouldn't be at any great disadvantage amongst a team of specialists. It also supports specialization for those who truly want to be the very best.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;594312What the text in Deluxe is saying is that if you really need to know what the maximum (not effective) "real world" range is, multiply by 2.5 instead.

Actually, what the rules are saying is: if a weapon has a long range band of 36" then it has a maximum range of 90". If you need to use 'real world' measures then these are 72 yards and 180 yards respectively.

The two multiplier are not mutually exclusive.

Quote from: dbm;594613Actually, what the rules are saying is: if a weapon has a long range band of 36" then it has a maximum range of 90". If you need to use 'real world' measures then these are 72 yards and 180 yards respectively.

The two multiplier are not mutually exclusive.

No, they are mutually exclusive. You use one set of ranges or the other, not both.

Basically, it's like this: since the "real world" maximums are generally too big to fit on a tabletop, the ranges are, in general, divided by 2.5 for effective range as a standardized constant to give a tabletop effective range. The conceit is this is the weapon's effective range in a skirmish level combat situation.

If you aren't playing on a tabletop and for some reason having real world maximum ranges is important to you, you can multiply each of the range bands by 2.5" to get maximums.

You would only use one of these scales, not both. you wouldn't use both 72 yards and 180 yards. You'd use 72 yards unless you are not playing on a tabletop AND you care about real world ranges enough for it to matter.

The biggest use for this I can see is converting a real world weapon to savage worlds yourself, you can divide its real world maximum range by 2.5 to calculate tabletop effective range.

My point is, it works fine to just use the tabletop effective ranges even if you aren't running on the tabletop. It works just fine, and makes for one set of mechanics. Only if someone was a real stickler for real world ranges would I think someone would care about the real world maximums. The rule can easily be ignored.

Quote from: dbm;594613Actually, what the rules are saying is: if a weapon has a long range band of 36" then it has a maximum range of 90". If you need to use 'real world' measures then these are 72 yards and 180 yards respectively.

The two multiplier are not mutually exclusive.

That was also what I was getting from the way it's phrased in the books and hence my confusion. The factors being mutually exclusive would make much more sense. I think the text could definitely do with some clarifying rephrasing.

Doctor Jest, I understand perfectly what you are saying. My confusion merely arose from the way it is explained in the books.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;594620No, they are mutually exclusive. You use one set of ranges or the other, not both.

The rules are very clear:

Quote from: Deluxe Edition Rules p49A tank round with a Long range of 300, for example, has a "real world" Long range of 750", or 1500 yards.

300 * 2.5 = 750
750 * 2 = 1500

QED