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Author Topic: Sandy Petersen criticizes Atlantic article on colonialism in board games, etc.  (Read 4806 times)

Warder

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..The fact some random mod believes they have the right to label somebody ''good' or ''bad'' based on their expressed political beliefs is very, very childish. Its a black and white choice. One would think an adult would try to actually understand what motivated the beliefs in the first place. Guess not.

Semaj Khan

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For fucks sakes, people, quit posting there. Quit reading there. Ignore that place.

RPG.net has, for time immemorial, been a cavalcade of asswipes. Too many of the voices there are the keyboard equivalent of the bean burrito special, and that is their sole purpose in life.  Let places like that suffocate in their own filth.

Play your games. Take what you want off your shelf, get together with like-minded friends, and have fun. It's that simple.
Walk amongst the natives by day, but in your heart be Superman.

Omega

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Boy, that was fast!  ??? My post was removed as "dismissive", but a mod assured me in private that "I'm not a bad person and I'm not getting a warning".

I wasn't even able to save it  :-

Anyway, interesting: true, my post was about why this problem, IMHO, doesn't exists, so, true, it was "dismissive"...

...Which means that you cannot dismiss the problem. I know forms of cancer that are less pernicious.

On BGG? I am rather surprised. Usually they just let the nuts shout down any dissenters rather than actually go after the 'problematic' posters.

Omega

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Dude. At least TBP will rub your face in it and make their bias public. That is so spineless.

BGG is all about covert control rather than overt. They are what The Other Place would have been with more competent subversives running it.

A game is dissaproved of? They will just quietly blind the game to searches and hotness. Or they will keep it in "WIP" limbo under some cocked up excuse. etc ad BGGium. Rarely does the curtain get pulled back enough to see the ugly gears turning.

Omega

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Does anyone think the Zulu empire was achieved by peaceful means?

EVERYBODY conquered and enslaved. Whites were just better at it for a time.

If I was black and could prove my tribe had been conquered by Shaka Zulu could I demand an apology from Zulu-descended, even reparations?

Hilariously most whites were bad at slavery and relied on natives wanting to get rid of people for their supply. If Africa and such werent so good at slavery the whole problem would have likely gone differently. But nope. Its all the white mans fault.

But to the SJWs its never going get pointed out because they feed on convincing people they are the victim and pitting them against someone else. Every iterations done this in some format large or small.

BoxCrayonTales

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Everybody likes to bash colonialism, but they get awfully quiet when you bring up the British, India, and the practice of 'suti'.

Lurkndog has it right: the issues are never cut and dried.
The sati was controversial and provincial (not widely practiced) in India even before the British colonized it. There are no circumstances in history where colonialism had a net positive or mostly positive effect on the people who were colonized. Even under the best circumstances, colonialism was overwhelmingly horrible for every indigenous culture that suffered it and those cultures still suffer the consequences today.
I'm sure this would be a great comfort to a widow burned to death that at least she wasn't being colonialized by dirty British.

Tell us more about your hatred of women.
My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.

Zalman

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My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded.

Exactly. You know where it was not controversial? Britain.

Regarding the OP, it's great to see a member of the old guard speaking out in an effective manner.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 01:32:51 PM by Zalman »
Old School? Back in my day we just called it "School."

Ghostmaker

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My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.
Controversial, as opposed to 'this is a terrible thing and should be ended forthwith'.

Lulz.

BoxCrayonTales

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My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.
Controversial, as opposed to 'this is a terrible thing and should be ended forthwith'.

Lulz.
Many Indian people thought it was horrible before the British invaded. These Indians interfered with the practice in afflicted areas. It was never universally practiced or enforced. India was never a monolithic bloc. India wasn’t even a single state before the British forcibly redrew the maps, and that hasn’t exactly worked out well.

I would appreciate if you don’t deliberately engage in bad faith, please.

Shrieking Banshee

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India wasn’t even a single state before the British forcibly redrew the maps, and that hasn’t exactly worked out well.
People have such a baby gloves view of the past. Every part of the world has been subject to subjegation, cleansing, and conquest. The nations that have benefitted just have largely forgotten that they where ever colonized or influenced by such things.

What the Brits/Europe did was not something that didn't happen to them or did not happen to the places they colonized before they arrived by other forces.
I really hate this kid gloves view of history. Move the fuck along people.

Reckall

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Boy, that was fast!  ??? My post was removed as "dismissive", but a mod assured me in private that "I'm not a bad person and I'm not getting a warning".

I wasn't even able to save it  :-

Anyway, interesting: true, my post was about why this problem, IMHO, doesn't exists, so, true, it was "dismissive"...

...Which means that you cannot dismiss the problem. I know forms of cancer that are less pernicious.

On BGG? I am rather surprised. Usually they just let the nuts shout down any dissenters rather than actually go after the 'problematic' posters.

My post was rather long, but basically I pointed out two things:

- That if you apply the word "problematic" to BBG's game database you have to cancel almost everything. "Twilight Struggle" has you launching CIA-sponsored coups in Chile and supporting red revolts in Vietnam. You must literally do these kind of things if you want to win. And one could write a paper on the "problematic Europa Universalis".

- OR you can understand the concept of "escapism" in entertainment, and understand that people know very well what is true and what is imaginary. "Puerto Rico" is based on a romantic vision of colonial times that never was (nor "Twilight Struggle is a 1:1 re-enactment of the Cold War). If it disturbs you there are alternatives. Maybe you are stimulated to do research, learn more about the World, and good for you. But, by now, "Puerto Rico" has done its job. Why to change it into something that it never was meant to be? Isn't it better to design a new, fresh game that tackles topics you feel important in a realistic way? "This War of Mine" is a good example that it can be done.

I also pointed out how the inability to distinguish between escapism and the real world leads to things like the Satanic Panic that surrounded D&D; when people went against kids that knew very well how their spellcasting and demonic summons were imaginary things happening in an imaginary World. Kids that, in some instances, had their young lives ruined (some were separated from their friends and even sent to military school) only because they played a game that other people judged "problematic"; because these other people couldn't understand how D&D was not a realistic portrayal of satanic rituals but escapism.

As I said, my post was much longer and contained more examples - including literature ("One Thousand and One Nights" is not a portrayal of the realities of the ancient Arab world. Should we judge it "problematic"?) - but that was the gist.

What happened was that I posted my message, I checked a mail and then I thought "Hmm... Better to save it" - and, poof!, it had already disappeared! Five minutes!

Considering how long it was, my only hypothesis is that the Mod read the first line...

"After reading this thread I think it is only fair to offer an opposite view."

...Judged it "dismissive" and cancelled it. There is no way that someone could have read it, much less reflect on what I wrote.

Call me naive. I expected to be debated, attacked, banned, cancelled (in the bad way). Fine. But after someone had read my opinion. Instead it would seem that "Offering an opposite view" is enough to activate the auto-deletion bot.

This is worse than being counter-opinionated . This is composing an opinion only to see the other side covering their ears and chanting "La la la!" There is no way out. For them, I mean.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Ghostmaker

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My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.
Controversial, as opposed to 'this is a terrible thing and should be ended forthwith'.

Lulz.
Many Indian people thought it was horrible before the British invaded. These Indians interfered with the practice in afflicted areas. It was never universally practiced or enforced. India was never a monolithic bloc. India wasn’t even a single state before the British forcibly redrew the maps, and that hasn’t exactly worked out well.

I would appreciate if you don’t deliberately engage in bad faith, please.
Your words, not mine. Don't blame me for your habit of eating the crayons between postings.

There's a difference between 'controversial' and 'actively attempting to end this'. Try selling that line regarding slavery sometime. Make sure you do it from range, though; people get awfully ornery.

SHARK

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Greetings!

Well, there are many Indians that have positive views on the British in India. The British Empire certainly performed evil deeds and policies, in India and elsewhere. However, it is important to remember that Britain imposed, awakened, and inspired many good things.

India become united entirely under the British Empire.

India gained RAILROADS--en masse, all over the country.

India gained inspiration for Democracy. Today, India is the word's largest Democracy.

India became more lawful, refined, and disciplined. India always had an appreciation for scholarship, wisdom, law codes, and many other great aspects of civilization. The rule of the British Empire, however, brought an even greater emphasis for law and order, law codes, and discipline in everything. These effects and influences can be seen in everything in India today, from their courts, to law schools, jurisprudence, how secular schools are organized and administered, and more. The forms and philosophy of the British throughout Indian consciousness in regards to such is foundational and huge.

And many more things. Many Indians take a far more nuanced view of these things. India is a VAST country, and has been invaded, conquered, and mixed with foreign conquerors and blood for thousands of years. The Saka and their conquering nomadic armies, The Aryans, The Persian Empire, Alexander the Great and the Greeks, The White Huns, The Kushans of the Kushan Empire, the Mongols, the Turks, the Mughals of Central Asia, and finally, the British Empire.

India has endured for 5,000 years and more. Their civilization, much like China, can trace distinct origin points back to virtually the Neolithic period. After the Flood, when people were still hunting and gathering, learning basic agriculture, and even learning to speak. The British did both some good and some bad things--just like every other invading, conquering power has in India over thousands of years of history.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Steven Mitchell

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Reckall, the last few months I posted on BGG, if the post was more involved than a few sentences, I wrote them offline and then pasted them into the post.  It was already getting to the point where I didn't trust that the site.  Realizing that I didn't trust was one of the things that caused me to wonder why I was putting in all that trouble and finally leave.  (Answer, there was a handful of people there for whom I really wanted to see what they had to say.) 

I was more worried that they would edit my posts without my consent instead of deleting, but I think it a good idea to have an independent record of anything you post on such a site.

I wrote my epic Dragon Quest review entirely offline and posted it in sections so that I wouldn't be beholden to BGG for that content. 

Shasarak

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My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.

The colonisation was so bad in India that she had to move to America and get a job in University to escape from it.
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