As I find segments of my time in the RPG gaming hobby taken by exploring different branches, I've come to appreciate the entire sandbox/sim approach. But it occurs to me that that the Chaosium/BRP family of games beats the pants off of D&D and it's iterations for pure sandbox/hexcrawl/rules-as-physics engine style gaming. Being a closer physics-engine style game as opposed to D&D, with more stuff making more sense. For example, Chaosium RQ2's encumberance system is much more elegant, it ditches stuff like Alignment and D&D's narrative hit points (with actual bleedout mechanics) and falling damage in RQ2 makes much more sense. RQ seems more ideal than D&D for OSR gaming - Bride of the Spider God certainly shows that the BRP family of games have OSR cred.

The Big Rubble of Pavis seems super ripe as a literal sandbox environment. I can't wait to apply sandbox/sim gaming principles to RQ6 when I run it for my meetup group in march.

I agree with the sim-engine part of your argument - RQ is better than D&D in that regard... if that's what you're looking for in your gameplay experience. But, I could see a GURPS fan making the same argument, but that GURPS is a better sim-engine than RQ or D&D.

I'm not sure whether it's any better than D&D for sandbox use. It has some great prepackaged sandbox products (Griffin Mountain, for example). So, maybe, if you're using the products as-is, or stealing inspiration from. But, I don't think that there are necessarily better tools in RQ for DIYing your own sandbox than what's found across editions of D&D.

This is always a tricky converstion because "better" is so hard to define. I can make a case that my favorite game is "better" just because it's so easy for me to run, just the same that someone else can take their favorite game and make the same case. Familiar makes better for most situations. However...

Quote from: K Peterson;720058I agree with the sim-engine part of your argument - RQ is better than D&D in that regard...

I'm not sure whether it's any better than D&D for sandbox use.

My experience with RQ (and I'll confess that I haven't really played it since the 1980's) is that it is great if you like detail and like a "build your own" character. I can see that RQ is fine for a simulation game (as are other skill-based games) but I don't see that it has any particular advantage in a sandbox style game.

I've been running sandbox style OD&D games since the 1970's and enjoy the freedom that comes with minimalistic NPC and monster data. If I see "orc, 1 HD, chainmail, sword" or something like that, I can run an encounter. For RQ I need a lot more information. The more information I need to prepare for an encounter, the less I "wing it" and the less of a sandbox the game becomes. The OD&D game I'm running right now requires essentially zero prep time, a map I downloaded off the internet, and a GM screen. I can't imagine running RQ that way.

Just my two cents.

Most RPGs can be used to run sandboxes and hexcrawls. The only requirement is that the referee focuses on responding to the players acting as their character and not to some agenda.

In other words if the players do X, the referee says that Y occurs because he views it as the most plausible of possible outcomes given the circumstances. Not because it advances how he thinks the games should go. This ideal is system neutral and totally depends on the referee not the rules to have it occur. The referee creativity comes in coming with interesting plausible outcomes not as acting as a epic novelist.

In my view how good of a sim an RPG is a personal preference. You play Runequest or GURPS because you like the type of simulation and/or degree of customization they offer.

For some people a better simulation means they can be immersed in the game more easily. As they can assume correctly how the physics operates whether it is fantasy, modern, superheroes, or even toons. A comfortable player is more likely to focus on exploration and interacting with the setting rather than worrying about whether they will survive or succeed in various encounters. But this is not an absolute and utterly dependent on the personality and interests of the player. The only hard rule is that there is no substitute for knowing your players.

However even abstracts system like D&D, Fate, or Fudge can be made to work for a sandbox campaign if the referee is smart about making his players comfortable and keeps his rulings consistent.

Quote from: K Peterson;720058I agree with the sim-engine part of your argument - RQ is better than D&D in that regard... if that's what you're looking for in your gameplay experience. But, I could see a GURPS fan making the same argument, but that GURPS is a better sim-engine than RQ or D&D.

I'm not sure whether it's any better than D&D for sandbox use. It has some great prepackaged sandbox products (Griffin Mountain, for example). So, maybe, if you're using the products as-is, or stealing inspiration from. But, I don't think that there are necessarily better tools in RQ for DIYing your own sandbox than what's found across editions of D&D.

Winner!

D&D was never a sim system to begin with, it was always abstract. In fact its LACK of sim quality inspired the RQ guys to make RQ in the first place.

Sandbox/exploration style play can be enjoyed across multiple systems and isn't tied exclusively to sim or abstract systems. Preferences in terms of rules volume and complexity trump any notion of "better" in this sense.

Quote from: finarvyn;720061For RQ I need a lot more information. The more information I need to prepare for an encounter, the less I "wing it" and the less of a sandbox the game becomes.

One certainly can cut down on the information needed, but (a) there's still a higher minimum, and (b) that passes up some reasons for choosing RQ in the first place.

RQ therefore tends IME to work better in a more intimate situation, one in which NPCs tend to be recurring characters.

The exemplary site-oriented scenarios usually involve rather less sprawling complexes than old-style D&D dungeons; exceptions such as Big Rubble are not so detailed, making more extensive use of procedural content generation as opposed to being mapped down to a 3 meter grid.

A better physics emulation engine does not necessarily translate into a better tool for sandboxing.

I'll look into the RQ6 rules for wilderness travel and get back to the thread later.

Your favorite game being "better" is merely an opinion, my favorite game being "better" is objective fact.

Runequest is better for battles with small numbers of detailed opponents. D&D is better with large numbers of identical opponents. So, the game that's best for sandbox depends entirely on what types of things exists out in the world.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;720026As I find segments of my time in the RPG gaming hobby taken by exploring different branches, I've come to appreciate the entire sandbox/sim approach. But it occurs to me that that the Chaosium/BRP family of games beats the pants off of D&D and it's iterations for pure sandbox/hexcrawl/rules-as-physics engine style gaming. Being a closer physics-engine style game as opposed to D&D, with more stuff making more sense. For example, Chaosium RQ2's encumberance system is much more elegant, it ditches stuff like Alignment and D&D's narrative hit points (with actual bleedout mechanics) and falling damage in RQ2 makes much more sense. RQ seems more ideal than D&D for OSR gaming - Bride of the Spider God certainly shows that the BRP family of games have OSR cred.

The Big Rubble of Pavis seems super ripe as a literal sandbox environment. I can't wait to apply sandbox/sim gaming principles to RQ6 when I run it for my meetup group in march.

I think if you want more realism in your sandbox, this is true. I would simply be cautious about tying sandbox to realism or simulation, since you could have a sandbox campaign in a completely unrealistic setting. I have been doing wuxia sandboxes for a bit now and they pretty unconcerned with simulating reality.

"Cutting mistakes - In a thirty minute Runequest battle (Chaosium) involving 6000 armored, experienced warriors using Great Axes, more than 150 men will decapitate themselves and another 600 will chop off their own arms or legs."

-- Murphy's Rules, "Space Gamer"

Quote from: Old Geezer;720148"Cutting mistakes - In a thirty minute Runequest battle (Chaosium) involving 6000 armored, experienced warriors using Great Axes, more than 150 men will decapitate themselves and another 600 will chop off their own arms or legs."

-- Murphy's Rules, "Space Gamer"

Sounds perfectly realistic to me. :rolleyes:

So in the course of a couple hours, a force of 3000 will inflict enough damage on itself to break ranks without needing an enemy!

Quote from: Old Geezer;720148"Cutting mistakes - In a thirty minute Runequest battle (Chaosium) involving 6000 armored, experienced warriors using Great Axes, more than 150 men will decapitate themselves and another 600 will chop off their own arms or legs."

-- Murphy's Rules, "Space Gamer"

Sounds more like Rolemaster than any edition of Runequest I know of (though admittedly I'm not familiar with 1e).

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;720026...it occurs to me that that the Chaosium/BRP family of games beats the pants off of D&D and it's iterations for pure sandbox/hexcrawl/rules-as-physics engine style gaming...The Big Rubble of Pavis seems super ripe as a literal sandbox environment. I can't wait to apply sandbox/sim gaming principles to RQ6 when I run it for my meetup group in march.

BRP is definitely more like a sim than D&D; no argument there (although even BRP/RQ isn't what I'd consider an actual sim).  Whether that's better or not depends on what you're after.  I don't think it's necessarily better than D&D for sandbox-style gaming, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't be great at sandbox-style gaming.  I think it's a fun system (D&D and BRP are my two favorite fantasy RPGs), and a RQ6 sandbox game centered around Big Rubble/Pavis sounds like an absolute blast.

Quote from: The Butcher;720173Sounds more like Rolemaster than any edition of Runequest I know of (though admittedly I'm not familiar with 1e).

Rolemaster, now, that's a game I could see rival D&D at sandbox play.

Or one could use the osr game Blood Guts & Glory for a RM + D&D hybrid.

RQ, though...I've tried to like it but it ain't my thing. It's sim-ier though, absolutely.