SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Rules light is incredibly liberating.

Started by B.T., October 15, 2011, 05:10:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Justin Alexander

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;486159I can find examples of "rules light" as a usage as early as the beginning of 1996: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.frp.misc/msg/fbec58a73fdadd20?hl=en&dmode=source

I can back it up to at least 1994.

In a thread about how miniatures are evil and people talk about how the current edition of D&D totally uses them unlike all those other games out there. Ah me. How the wheel turns.
Note: this sig cut for personal slander and harassment by a lying tool who has been engaging in stalking me all over social media with filthy lies - RPGPundit

Justin Alexander

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;486498Note that you're coming at this from a player perspective, as well. For the GM, its a different set of NPCs or monsters every fight and so a new batch of calculations.

There's a reason that you set the assumed baseline of the game for the most common/expected scenario and then modify from that assumed baseline: Because it lowers the number of modifiers typically in play.

Other things that wouldn't be good ideas:

- Giving everyone a -4 penalty to AC when they're not behind cover.
- Giving everyone a -2 penalty to attacks when they're not flanking.
- Giving everyone a +4 bonus to AC when they're not helpless.
- Giving everyone a +4 bonus to attacks when they're standing up.
Note: this sig cut for personal slander and harassment by a lying tool who has been engaging in stalking me all over social media with filthy lies - RPGPundit

StormBringer

Quote from: Justin Alexander;486500I can back it up to at least 1994.

In a thread about how miniatures are evil and people talk about how the current edition of D&D totally uses them unlike all those other games out there. Ah me. How the wheel turns.
Except that isn't at all what they are talking about.  "D&D" shows up three times in the entire thread, and two of those are in a single post:

"1) The Wargamer:  He to whom combat is the main focus.  Rules-lawyers are the archetype of this.  The rules are most important often, not what makes sense (the D&D rules say you can't aim for his head so it's not possible).  He moved from wargames to roleplaying or started as a hack n'slash D&D'er & never graduated past it."

Neither of those instances are in regards to miniatures.

"Dungeon" doesn't make an appearance at all, so there certainly isn't any instances of "Dungeons and Dragons", let alone "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons".

In other words, your premise utterly fails because they aren't talking about D&D at all, let alone miniature use thereof.  Where they do talk about miniatures specifically, the thread is split around 50/50 positive/negative on their use.

The wheel only turns back to your argument still being completely wrong.  The half (or so) that argue in favour of them posit their use for easier battlefield representation:

"Sometimes the physical setting matters.  Even a great deal.  In that
 case, a sketch can come in darned handy.  And once you have a sketch,
 why not plop down some representational icons for the actors?  And why
 not make them colorful, and readily identifiable, even (gasp)
 individualized?"

No one there is even remotely suggesting miniatures are required for play, or that they feel the rules lock them into using miniatures.  In fact, since they don't appear to be talking about D&D at all, there is certainly no mention of how those rules are designed for use with miniatures.

I don't even know why you felt the need to bring this up again, other than your ego is so wounded, you are psychologically incapable of letting this go and admit your initial mistake.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Justin Alexander

Quote from: StormBringer;486505In other words, your premise

Dude. I think you might be taking an ironic comment about the second post in the linked thread a wee bit too seriously.

QuoteNo one there is even remotely suggesting miniatures are required for play, or that they feel the rules lock them into using miniatures.

Never said they did. You're a crazy dude, Stormbringer.

QuoteI don't even know why you felt the need to bring this up again, other than your ego is so wounded, you are psychologically incapable of letting this go and admit your initial mistake.

Ah. You think this is all about you.

That's because you're an idiot.

But, please, regale us again with your tale of how the published rulebooks for OD&D don't require Chainmail because you can totally just rewrite those rulebooks so that they don't. It will be no less amusing than the last time you decided to go full retard on this one.
Note: this sig cut for personal slander and harassment by a lying tool who has been engaging in stalking me all over social media with filthy lies - RPGPundit

StormBringer

Quote from: Justin Alexander;486507Dude. I think you might be taking an ironic comment about the second post in the linked thread a wee bit too seriously.
In order for 'irony' to be present, there has to be some mention of the thing one is being 'ironic' about.  Since there is no mention of what you say there is, what do you think is the ironic part?

QuoteNever said they did. You're a crazy dude, Stormbringer.
"In a thread about how miniatures are evil and people talk about how the  current edition of D&D totally uses them unlike all those other  games out there."
Irony isn't making up something and then pretending to defeat that statement.  That is a 'strawman'.  You excel at those, but it isn't irony.

QuoteAh. You think this is all about you.

That's because you're an idiot.

But, please, regale us again with your tale of how the published rulebooks for OD&D don't require Chainmail because you can totally just rewrite those rulebooks so that they don't. It will be no less amusing than the last time you decided to go full retard on this one.
No, it's clearly all about your bruised little ego, or you would have simply posted "I have an instance in 1994", then proceeded to post in the other thread with this 'new' information.

Except for the fact that you are now fully aware that your argument is completely daft, wholly incorrect, and impossible to support.  You just refuse to admit it, instead dragging the point to an unrelated thread in the hopes of finding some support over here.

My advice:  Stick to your blog where people don't have the temerity to talk back.  And stick to 3.x, you seem woefully uneducated with anything prior to that.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

StormBringer

And with that, I am done.  :)

I maintain that 'rules light' can get a bit too light recently.  At some point, it simply moves away from 'game' and becomes 'round robin story creation'.  Which is a fine hobby, just not one particularly aligned with RPGs, in my opinion.

There is a certain level of rules that are necessary, and not just rules for interacting with other players.  As there is no quantifiable measurement for 'rules', it is clearly a matter of taste.  I find B/X D&D at about the lower end of useful rules light.  OD&D is even a bit sparse, really.  It is good for what it does, which is a very, very basic toolset for making your own game.  It's just not enough of a scaffold for me to deal with, having limited time and all.

I would have to dig through my collection to find other examples.  The core of CyberPunk 2020 (essentially Fuzion, if I recall) would make for a pretty good frame on which to build something pretty rules light-ish.  Task resolution, combat tables, character generation...  Nothing specifically for 'quirks', as in, metaphysical stuff;  spells, psionics and the like.  Still, add them in as skills and you at least have a working system for future tinkering.

Arguing back and forth over poorly worded guidelines for some of the really rules light games seems to be not much more than pixelbitching a trap or secret door in the worst TSR modules to me.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Bloody Stupid Johnson

Quote from: StormBringer;486564The core of CyberPunk 2020 (essentially Fuzion, if I recall) would make for a pretty good frame on which to build something pretty rules light-ish. Task resolution, combat tables, character generation... Nothing specifically for 'quirks', as in, metaphysical stuff; spells, psionics and the like. Still, add them in as skills and you at least have a working system for future tinkering.
 
Fuzion was fairly similar to the Interlock system (e.g. Cyberpunk 2020), though it was technically an amalgamation of that and HERO. Fuzion does have more detail on the metaphysical stuff and whatnot, though I guess it'd put it as rules-medium (?). IIRC, I think it sometimes uses +3d6 (the Hero method) rather than +1d10 for task resolution but stat purchase etc. is similar to CP2020.
 
There's a page here with details of the exact design process - I found it interesting since the design process itself (of trying to find common ground between two completely different systems) was sort of weird.
http://knol.google.com/k/fuzion-rpg-design#

StormBringer

#82
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;486615Fuzion was fairly similar to the Interlock system (e.g. Cyberpunk 2020), though it was technically an amalgamation of that and HERO. Fuzion does have more detail on the metaphysical stuff and whatnot, though I guess it'd put it as rules-medium (?). IIRC, I think it sometimes uses +3d6 (the Hero method) rather than +1d10 for task resolution but stat purchase etc. is similar to CP2020.
 
There's a page here with details of the exact design process - I found it interesting since the design process itself (of trying to find common ground between two completely different systems) was sort of weird.
http://knol.google.com/k/fuzion-rpg-design#
It was Interlock I was thinking of.  I don't know why Fuzion keeps getting stuck in my head with CP2020.  Didn't the horrible v3 use Fuzion, the one with the Barbie dolls for interior art?

EDIT:  Interesting article.  I want to do something similar to stat grouping and treat them almost like skills.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Justin Alexander

Quote from: StormBringer;486561
Quote
QuoteNo one there is even remotely suggesting miniatures are required for play, or that they feel the rules lock them into using miniatures.
Never said they did. You're a crazy dude, Stormbringer.

"In a thread about how miniatures are evil and people talk about how the  current edition of D&D totally uses them unlike all those other  games out there."

See, that I did say. You notice how it's not what you claimed I said?

I love it when you try that one.

QuoteExcept for the fact that you are now fully aware that your argument is completely daft, wholly incorrect, and impossible to support.

I can't wait for the Stormbringer to show up who claims that "inches" terminology was used because that was the convention for miniature play. I hope you two start arguing with each other again!

You're a crazy dude, Stormbringer.
Note: this sig cut for personal slander and harassment by a lying tool who has been engaging in stalking me all over social media with filthy lies - RPGPundit

Bloody Stupid Johnson

Quote from: StormBringer;486626It was Interlock I was thinking of. I don't know why Fuzion keeps getting stuck in my head with CP2020. Didn't the horrible v3 use Fuzion, the one with the Barbie dolls for interior art?
 
EDIT: Interesting article. I want to do something similar to stat grouping and treat them almost like skills.

I haven't seen that product, but after searching the rpggeek review says yes it was Fuzion-based (and yeah had the dolls).
 
Great the article was of interest, anyway, though I don't know that stat grouping was one of Fuzion's greatest ideas.

StormBringer

#85
Quote from: Justin Alexander;486681See, that I did say. You notice how it's not what you claimed I said?

I love it when you try that one.

I can't wait for the Stormbringer to show up who claims that "inches" terminology was used because that was the convention for miniature play. I hope you two start arguing with each other again!

You're a crazy dude, Stormbringer.
Even your responses are incoherent now.  The circle is complete.

EDIT:  Semantics is the last gasp of a poor argument.  If your claim is that scale inches are in the rules because of miniatures usage, and further that almost all the spells and magic items use scale inches, then your claim implies that one cannot play properly without miniatures.  Hence, miniatures are required for play.  Your attempt to weasel out by claiming you only said 'it uses' instead of 'it requires' is laughably pathetic.

Which is irrelevant, because there is no evidence that anyone in that thread you posted was talking about D&D in the first place, let alone that there was extensive use of miniatures in D&D.  The rest of your feeble thrashing is immaterial, because there are three mentions of D&D in that thread, and two of them are in reference to hack 'n' slash, not miniatures.  Hence, you saw "D&D" in the thread and wanted to re-hash an argument you had already failed to provide any reasonable level of evidence for, and were presented with more than ample evidence that countered your claim.  But here you are, ready to pretend you were right all along from a misreading of a thread you found.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

StormBringer

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;486686I haven't seen that product, but after searching the rpggeek review says yes it was Fuzion-based (and yeah had the dolls).
I picked it up and read a few pages some years back.  It isn't very good.  And the layout is all shades of green.
 
QuoteGreat the article was of interest, anyway, though I don't know that stat grouping was one of Fuzion's greatest ideas.
Like most things, the kernel of a good idea is buried under the poor implementation.  My perennial favourite example is the AD&D 2nd edition Monstrous Compendiums.  Fantastic idea, horrible execution.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

B.T.

Will you two shut the fuck up about your dumbass feud?  Nobody else cares.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;530561Y\'know, I\'ve learned something from this thread. Both B.T. and Koltar are idiots, but whereas B.T. possesses a malign intelligence, Koltar is just a drooling fuckwit.

So, that\'s something, I guess.

Justin Alexander

Quote from: StormBringer;486709EDIT:  Semantics is the last gasp of a poor argument.  If your claim is that scale inches are in the rules because of miniatures usage, and further that almost all the spells and magic items use scale inches, then your claim implies that one cannot play properly without miniatures.  Hence, miniatures are required for play.  Your attempt to weasel out by claiming you only said 'it uses' instead of 'it requires' is laughably pathetic.

You realize that you're the one using semantics, right? You're trying to "prove" that I said something that I explicitly didn't say by re-interpreting my words.

Which, I suppose, is better than when you were just rewriting what I said so that you could vigorously hump the strawmen you created. Wait...

QuoteBut here you are, ready to pretend you were right all along from a misreading of a thread you found.

Apparently you're still doing that, too.

You're a crazy dude, Stormbringer. (And kind of an egomaniac. Your assumption that the world revolves around is kind of funny in its paranoia.)
Note: this sig cut for personal slander and harassment by a lying tool who has been engaging in stalking me all over social media with filthy lies - RPGPundit

Narf the Mouse

Quote from: B.T.;486734Will you two shut the fuck up about your dumbass feud?  Nobody else cares.
More polite, but still agreeing - Take it to PMs or something. The rest of us have an OP to discuss.
The main problem with government is the difficulty of pressing charges against its directors.

Given a choice of two out of three M&Ms, the human brain subconsciously tries to justify the two M&Ms chosen as being superior to the M&M not chosen.