After the youtube diatribe and threat I'll just leave this here. ;D ;D
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/abuse-allegations-against-john-wick-formerly-can-someone-sum-up-this-john-wick-game-designer-thing.887003/
If you think thats bad you should see what happened to the guy that killed his dog.
"Waaaaaay back in time, on the old email lists for L5R and 7th Sea, JW ruled the roost, and frequently banned people that disagreed with him."
And this is considered a bad thing on RPG.net... how? :o
BTW, the Mods are now firmly in Wonderland.
I purchased several of Wick's 'little' games off of DriveThruRPG. Several of them are seemingly incomplete, as in there seem to be gaps in the rules. Someone commented on this and received a reply along the lines of, 'well, a good gm can still make them work. I guess this isn't for you.'
I decided I didn't need any more of his games.
Guidance:
Please keep anything related to Wick about his behavior to things you've experienced or heard. His approach to game design is irrelevant in this case. Thank you.
Isn't this dude speaking about his direct experience with John Wick's games? And if JW cons his customers with unfinished products isn't this very relevant to this thread?
I fear that RPG.net's Mod detachment from reality is complete - even from the unreal reality themselves created.
It's hilarious that he's trying to get on to our 'red list', but seems to have gotten himself on to the woke scold's one.
Well done Wick. It looks like your candle has finally dwindled. ;D ;D
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 21, 2021, 05:44:10 AM
After the youtube diatribe and threat I'll just leave this here. ;D ;D
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/abuse-allegations-against-john-wick-formerly-can-someone-sum-up-this-john-wick-game-designer-thing.887003/
Why....why do I take such delight in this (rhetorical question). Ah, I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
Imagine being a grown man and writing an attention whoring twitter thread about something that happened 20 years ago.
Quote from: horsesoldier on September 21, 2021, 10:44:25 AM
Imagine being a grown man and writing an attention whoring twitter thread about something that happened 20 years ago.
It's a bit childish alright... But on the other hand, it's funny to see Wick getting burned. Pun intended. :)
Quote from: horsesoldier on September 21, 2021, 10:44:25 AM
Imagine being a grown man and writing an attention whoring twitter thread about something that happened 20 years ago.
But you see, that is the point. I mean you or I wouldn't have done so (especially me since I don't have twitter). But, keeping a record of stuff that happened years ago is the MO of sjdubs. Isn't there a saying that 'there's always a tweet' (I know in this case not true, but my point is that this is a tactic of the sjdubs. Dredgin up history to justify cancelling).
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 21, 2021, 11:35:40 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on September 21, 2021, 10:44:25 AM
Imagine being a grown man and writing an attention whoring twitter thread about something that happened 20 years ago.
But you see, that is the point. I mean you or I wouldn't have done so (especially me since I don't have twitter). But, keeping a record of stuff that happened years ago is the MO of sjdubs. Isn't there a saying that 'there's always a tweet' (I know in this case not true, but my point is that this is a tactic of the sjdubs. Dredgin up history to justify cancelling).
Ironically, I encourage people to document and archive the socjus zealots' bullshit, since they have a habit of cleaning house if they think things are going to go into the crapper.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 21, 2021, 11:35:40 AM
Dredgin up history to justify cancelling).
Indeed it is, a classic tactic.
Most normal human beings (unless in a case of severe trauma) would put it down to a shitty work experience and leave at the appropriate time. Or tell the bully to fuck off. I had a few bad experiences when I was working under a slimy corporation who took liberties with the staff. But it was my first job, and I was a lot younger. But I left within the year after finding another and better job. Honestly, though, I'd almost forgotten about it until this guys tweet. ;D I don't dwell on things like this.
Typical RPg.net hypocrisy someone pointed that John Wick was a jerk for years and rpg.net never really cared as he was an indie designer received a seven day ban.
First they never cared cause he was the indie rog darling now to virtue signal he is the spawn of the devil.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2021, 11:46:41 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 21, 2021, 11:35:40 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on September 21, 2021, 10:44:25 AM
Imagine being a grown man and writing an attention whoring twitter thread about something that happened 20 years ago.
But you see, that is the point. I mean you or I wouldn't have done so (especially me since I don't have twitter). But, keeping a record of stuff that happened years ago is the MO of sjdubs. Isn't there a saying that 'there's always a tweet' (I know in this case not true, but my point is that this is a tactic of the sjdubs. Dredgin up history to justify cancelling).
Ironically, I encourage people to document and archive the socjus zealots' bullshit, since they have a habit of cleaning house if they think things are going to go into the crapper.
Oh can't argue that. I say if you have the ability, do archive their......public sayings and stuff. Cause you're right. They will purge if things go south.
Curiously, the "no personal attacks" rule went right out the window on that thread at rpg.net. Interesting how they pick and choose.
Quote from: brettmb on September 21, 2021, 11:55:14 AM
Curiously, the "no personal attacks" rule went right out the window on that thread at rpg.net. Interesting how they pick and choose.
Their ban on personal and general attacks has always been flexible, depending on who's being dissed.
Quote from: brettmb on September 21, 2021, 11:55:14 AM
Curiously, the "no personal attacks" rule went right out the window on that thread at rpg.net. Interesting how they pick and choose.
New here? ;D
"The lady doth protest too much me thinks"
Funny how that works out with people on the left time after time.
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2021, 01:27:22 PM
Quote from: brettmb on September 21, 2021, 11:55:14 AM
Curiously, the "no personal attacks" rule went right out the window on that thread at rpg.net. Interesting how they pick and choose.
Their ban on personal and general attacks has always been flexible, depending on who's being dissed.
Also, when someone becomes a non-person the rule doesn't apply anymore.
He shoved knicknacks in their face! KNICKNACKS!!!!
Holy shit.
I heard John Wick got an engineering degree and specialized in "Whisper Campaign Design".
That's what I heard.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2021, 01:27:22 PM
Quote from: brettmb on September 21, 2021, 11:55:14 AM
Curiously, the "no personal attacks" rule went right out the window on that thread at rpg.net. Interesting how they pick and choose.
Their ban on personal and general attacks has always been flexible, depending on who's being dissed.
From the very start I think. Years before I noticed the first whiff of radical politics there was a cool kids clique and fairly blatant favoritism in enforcement of who you were allowed to argue with and what was considered a personal attack.
RPG Net's rules only apply to Allies. Enemies are fair game, and you can tell when that designation shifts by how they enforce rules regarding the same subject over time.
If Wick's so bad, how long before any discussion of his games are banned from RPG.net?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 21, 2021, 05:44:10 AM
After the youtube diatribe and threat I'll just leave this here. ;D ;D
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/abuse-allegations-against-john-wick-formerly-can-someone-sum-up-this-john-wick-game-designer-thing.887003/
A summary? That site has cancer and freezes my PC.
Quote from: ponta1010 on September 21, 2021, 04:33:44 PM
If Wick's so bad, how long before any discussion of his games are banned from RPG.net?
... then we'll see him complaining about it here.
Quote from: Shasarak on September 21, 2021, 06:12:26 AM
If you think thats bad you should see what happened to the guy that killed his dog.
I laughed!
Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2021, 05:37:54 PM
Quote from: ponta1010 on September 21, 2021, 04:33:44 PM
If Wick's so bad, how long before any discussion of his games are banned from RPG.net?
... then we'll see him complaining about it here.
:o :P
Quote from: brettmb on September 21, 2021, 11:55:14 AM
Curiously, the "no personal attacks" rule went right out the window on that thread at rpg.net. Interesting how they pick and choose.
I guess it's no longer a personal attack if you've been unpersoned.
Quote from: Reckall on September 21, 2021, 06:30:00 AM
"Waaaaaay back in time, on the old email lists for L5R and 7th Sea, JW ruled the roost, and frequently banned people that disagreed with him."
And this is considered a bad thing on RPG.net... how? :o
Precisely! It is like he was directly inspired by the forum Nazis that run that cesspool.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 21, 2021, 11:35:40 AMBut, keeping a record of stuff that happened years ago is the MO of sjdubs. Isn't there a saying that 'there's always a tweet' (I know in this case not true, but my point is that this is a tactic of the sjdubs. Dredgin up history to justify cancelling).
I've got a folder of stuff going back to the mid 90s. Alot of it moderator stuff as I had to look into any reports and figure out what was going on.
Mostly old reminders of exactly why I banned someone. Or why I don't interact with someone anymore. Or why I warn people away from various artists who scam customers and then have examples of why. I wish I had kept more notes as decades later I glance at the banned list and wonder why so-n-so was banned. But then remember that it takes alot to get me to ban someone - so they are staying banned.
I used to have a little track of all the aliases a particular artist went through during the course of many years of ripping customers off. About one every year for over a decade.
None of which is why these cultists go hunting for any little sin you've committed against the great god woke. Or if they are a designer or publisher doing it, for the great god $$$.
Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2021, 05:37:54 PM
Quote from: ponta1010 on September 21, 2021, 04:33:44 PM
If Wick's so bad, how long before any discussion of his games are banned from RPG.net?
... then we'll see him complaining about it here.
I've seen that forum. That forum is an extended gutter, and the gutter is full of blood, and when the drains finally scab over all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of the big purple will foam up about his waist and all the John Wick will look up and shout "This isn't fair!"
And I'll whisper "lol".
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 22, 2021, 06:35:16 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2021, 05:37:54 PM
Quote from: ponta1010 on September 21, 2021, 04:33:44 PM
If Wick's so bad, how long before any discussion of his games are banned from RPG.net?
... then we'll see him complaining about it here.
I've seen that forum. That forum is an extended gutter, and the gutter is full of blood, and when the drains finally scab over all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of the big purple will foam up about his waist and all the John Wick will look up and shout "This isn't fair!"
And I'll whisper "lol".
Oh it'll be a chorus of laughter. Believe you me.
Quote from: tenbones on September 22, 2021, 11:33:58 AM
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 22, 2021, 06:35:16 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2021, 05:37:54 PM
Quote from: ponta1010 on September 21, 2021, 04:33:44 PM
If Wick's so bad, how long before any discussion of his games are banned from RPG.net?
... then we'll see him complaining about it here.
I've seen that forum. That forum is an extended gutter, and the gutter is full of blood, and when the drains finally scab over all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of the big purple will foam up about his waist and all the John Wick will look up and shout "This isn't fair!"
And I'll whisper "lol".
Oh it'll be a chorus of laughter. Believe you me.
He who lives by the SJW sword will be first crucified than die by the SJW sword.
Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2021, 05:37:54 PM
... then we'll see him complaining about it here.
Every silver has a cloudy lining.
Wick would be welcome to come here. I had to prod my brains a bit but now I remember his Play Dirty columns, and they struck me as an extended treatise on How To Make Your RPG Unfun For Everyone.
So yeah, I'd welcome the opportunity to verbally curbstomp him. I don't mind invoking Niven and Pournelle's evolution in action on my players, but I'm not going to look for opportunities to fuck them in the ass at every turn either.
I always took that with a grain of salt aimed at the eye of Power Players.
Much like the superb book "Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads" by Mike Pondsmith, for CP2020 (but is useful for any newb-to-mid-tier GM).
But given his attitude, you're probably more correct he's just an opinionated dick. I won't hold that against him, of course. But you know, the Internet Tough Guy videos are pretty cringetastic.
Isn't Wick the guy who wrote a big sob story years ago about how running Tomb of Horrors made him lose all his friends?
Quote from: JeffB on September 23, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
Isn't Wick the guy who wrote a big sob story years ago about how running Tomb of Horrors made him lose all his friends?
I enjoyed some of Wick's stuff in the past, but allegedly he lied about Tomb of Horrors in that story.
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/38212/roleplaying-games/thought-of-the-day-john-wick-lies-about-the-tomb-of-horrors
I'm not familiar enough with ToB to say who is right; however, I'd bet on the Alexandrian if I was a gambler.
Quote from: JeffB on September 23, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
Isn't Wick the guy who wrote a big sob story years ago about how running Tomb of Horrors made him lose all his friends?
It makes sense if he's playing with oversensitive proto-parents of Future Participation Trophy Winners.
I have died dozens of times in ToH. I've killed dozens of PC's in ToH. Lose friends over it? WTF. It's a badge of honor to die in ToH. It will provide you with a collection of badges! BAH! Wick is a twat, trying to lick the boots of weak ass simps that proves only three things...
1) They were never friends.
2) He is an idiot for believing they were your friends (have some standards).
3) He is a sniveler for seeking their praise.
Now ;et the Visigoth Chickens return to their roost! Cry Cluck! and let the cannibal pecking commence!
Yep, OK. Thank you Eric Diaz. That's who I thought it was. I'm not familiar with him other than that whole BS ToH story.
And I'm right there with ya tenbones. What a joke. I'll enjoy seeing him get eaten by his own.
Wick's always come across as sort of douchey and pretentious to me. That said, I've also enjoyed a lot of his work (Wield, Houses of the Blooded in particular) but he's gonna learn a hard lesson here, methinks.
John Wick has always been a controversial figure. He's always been an ego maniac, and something of a 'rockstar' among a subsect of the RPG fanbase. I'm a fan of several games he's had a hand in. L5R and 7th Sea being the biggest ones (Though he screwed the pooch on 7th Sea second ed as far as I'm concerned). Honestly if you read a lot of his GM advice he does come off as something of a narcissistic psychopath. It doesn't surprise me his assholish behavior is finally catching up with him after so long.
The one bright shining thing here he can say, is at least he's not a sex pest, like a quarter of RPG.net's own moderators turned out to be.
I like his Houses of the Blooded game. My old group in Montreal had tons of fun with it.
Otherwise I don't have too much to say about this. Has he been virtue signaling about what a good and wholesome person he is at all times? If so he's probably a massive hypocrite, but I honestly never caught how he presented himself online.
He claims he was woke before it was fashionable and paid a huge price for it. He literally said that in a video on YouTube.
Quote from: Batjon on September 25, 2021, 11:14:30 PM
He claims he was woke before it was fashionable and paid a huge price for it. He literally said that in a video on YouTube.
Oh dear. ;D In what way did he "pay" for it?
Quote from: Trond on September 26, 2021, 12:11:01 AM
Quote from: Batjon on September 25, 2021, 11:14:30 PM
He claims he was woke before it was fashionable and paid a huge price for it. He literally said that in a video on YouTube.
Oh dear. ;D In what way did he "pay" for it?
No idea. I'm sure he will claim he was shunned in the community or something and was the woke trailblazer.
Well he was quite proud of writing self described gay erotica as part of the opening fiction of 7th Sea second edition.
7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.
That combined with some other over arching setting changes and a system change that converted it right into a story game made me regret being one of the backers.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:27:50 PM7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.
That's not surprising. Way back in the day, when asked why he created a fantasy version of history instead of creating a historical RPG, he said that it was because he wanted female PCs to not have historic restrictions.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 26, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:27:50 PM7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.
That's not surprising. Way back in the day, when asked why he created a fantasy version of history instead of creating a historical RPG, he said that it was because he wanted female PCs to not have historic restrictions.
This is something I don't have an issue with, as long as people still tolerate others playing games with, say, traditional Arthurian ladies or whatever. I might have loosened up female restrictions a bit in an Arabian Nights game too for instance. But it soon turned into "well it's OK to like those games DESPITE their PROBLEMATIC content" (ignoring that people might like it BECAUSE of the content). And from there to a more "Thou shalt not!" kind of attitude.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 26, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:27:50 PM7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.
That's not surprising. Way back in the day, when asked why he created a fantasy version of history instead of creating a historical RPG, he said that it was because he wanted female PCs to not have historic restrictions.
Well, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon. The 7ft tall Infamous Pirate who was the scourage of the Seas and like a nightmare version of Captain Hook Reus inexplicably became a woman.
Allande, the former first born son of Castille who had thrown away his crown in secret and founded the free nation of the Brotherhood of the Coast inexplicably became a woman as well, with zero connection to the previous set up except for helping found the Brotherhood of the Coast.
There's a whole lot of things like that. Meanwhile, interesting as hell female NPC Villains like Fauner Posen one of the Leaders of Eisen just ended up ceasing to exist. Fauner Posen was interesting because she was Lawful Evil in that sense of, a Villain because she honestly believed the ends justified the means, and had a chance at redemption... But poof, no longer exists! Instead replaced by... a Vampire. Just a Woman whose clearly a Vampire.
There was a lot more overt homosexuality introduced too, which I mostly don't have an issue with, as 1st edition was lacking that, and I am for Gay representation in media. But the way Wick handled it in 2nd edition bordered on the realm of straight up exploitive. Like I mentioned the opening fiction is a straight up homoerotic sex scene... For a Swashbuckling game.
Rather than take the already exisiting awesome material that was already progressive and add a few more gay/lesbian characters, he went the route of pandering to the SJW crowd, and it comes across as that... Pandering, and it seems a little soulless because of it.
That combined with lots of other inexplicable changes and the removal of lots of conflict from the setting, and the storey game rules really made it a heart breaker for myself and lots of other backers and not in a good way. To this day I have a ton of the produced 2nd edition supplements I haven't bothered to read because the setting just lost me. Unlike 1st edition where I devoured everything that came out for it.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 26, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:27:50 PM7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.
That's not surprising. Way back in the day, when asked why he created a fantasy version of history instead of creating a historical RPG, he said that it was because he wanted female PCs to not have historic restrictions.
Well, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon. The 7ft tall Infamous Pirate who was the scourage of the Seas and like a nightmare version of Captain Hook Reus inexplicably became a woman.
Allande, the former first born son of Castille who had thrown away his crown in secret and founded the free nation of the Brotherhood of the Coast inexplicably became a woman as well, with zero connection to the previous set up except for helping found the Brotherhood of the Coast.
There's a whole lot of things like that. Meanwhile, interesting as hell female NPC Villains like Fauner Posen one of the Leaders of Eisen just ended up ceasing to exist. Fauner Posen was interesting because she was Lawful Evil in that sense of, a Villain because she honestly believed the ends justified the means, and had a chance at redemption... But poof, no longer exists! Instead replaced by... a Vampire. Just a Woman whose clearly a Vampire.
There was a lot more overt homosexuality introduced too, which I mostly don't have an issue with, as 1st edition was lacking that, and I am for Gay representation in media. But the way Wick handled it in 2nd edition bordered on the realm of straight up exploitive. Like I mentioned the opening fiction is a straight up homoerotic sex scene... For a Swashbuckling game.
Rather than take the already exisiting awesome material that was already progressive and add a few more gay/lesbian characters, he went the route of pandering to the SJW crowd, and it comes across as that... Pandering, and it seems a little soulless because of it.
That combined with lots of other inexplicable changes and the removal of lots of conflict from the setting, and the storey game rules really made it a heart breaker for myself and lots of other backers and not in a good way. To this day I have a ton of the produced 2nd edition supplements I haven't bothered to read because the setting just lost me. Unlike 1st edition where I devoured everything that came out for it.
1st edition was inspired and awesome. There were a few mechanics within that weren't fully fleshed out if I recall correctly. I played the hell out of the card game too. Great game.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.
That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.
The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.
On a more recent side note. ;D
Wicki said he never 'bans' people commenting on his youtube channel, or blocks them. Basically, in order to show everyone what 'bigots' they really are.
Of course, that's not really true... I've a few youtube accounts. And I dropped a comment letting the good viewers know of the rather nice thread that's currently on rpg.net about Wicky and I was shadow banned very shortly afterwards.
It seems Wicky skin isn't quite as thick as he pretends it to be...
Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 27, 2021, 07:45:19 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.
That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.
The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.
Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.
Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
Call me an SJW.
You are a SJW.
Any other requests, I am here all day.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 27, 2021, 07:45:19 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.
That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.
The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.
Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.
Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.
Because Dragons.
That's your argument here. Without knowing jackshit about the game worlds you're talking about. HISTORICAL Fantasy indeed.
How historical? You don't know, but if anyone dares not play
The One True Way then they are istophobes am I rite? Why? Because Dragons.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:04:53 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 27, 2021, 07:45:19 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.
That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.
The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.
Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.
Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.
Because Dragons.
That's your argument here. Without knowing jackshit about the game worlds you're talking about. HISTORICAL Fantasy indeed.
How historical? You don't know, but if anyone dares not play The One True Way then they are istophobes am I rite? Why? Because Dragons.
We are literally talking about 7th Sea. A game that doesn't take place in the real world, and was created specifically with the idea of a society where women for the most part are given equal rights as men. There is one country where this is not the case and women have no rights.
You're crapping on me in this thread without understanding of the debate taking place because I don't agree with you in another thread. Stop being emotional, learn to separate different debate topics from one another, and don't take it personally.
I literally pointed out an example where I would keep things as they're presented. The World of Darkness "Dark Ages" setting for example.
But 7th Sea allowing you to play women and minorities and not for the most part have to face racism and sexism (Outside of Voddacce where the women have no rights because they have magic fate powers the men want to control) isn't fucking pandering.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:11:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:04:53 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 27, 2021, 07:45:19 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.
That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.
The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.
Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.
Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.
Because Dragons.
That's your argument here. Without knowing jackshit about the game worlds you're talking about. HISTORICAL Fantasy indeed.
How historical? You don't know, but if anyone dares not play The One True Way then they are istophobes am I rite? Why? Because Dragons.
We are literally talking about 7th Sea. A game that doesn't take place in the real world, and was created specifically with the idea of a society where women for the most part are given equal rights as men. There is one country where this is not the case and women have no rights.
You're crapping on me in this thread without understanding of the debate taking place because I don't agree with you in another thread. Stop being emotional, learn to separate different debate topics from one another, and don't take it personally.
I literally pointed out an example where I would keep things as they're presented. The World of Darkness "Dark Ages" setting for example.
But 7th Sea allowing you to play women and minorities and not for the most part have to face racism and sexism (Outside of Voddacce where the women have no rights because they have magic fate powers the men want to control) isn't fucking pandering.
You're correct, it isn't fucking pandering, it's pandering AND presenting a narrative about Teh Evul Patriarchy.
No, I'm not emotional you said "In your historical fantasy game" did you not? That's a generalization of ALL games that fit the descrition, it's what I'm arguing against.
Now, IF you didn't mean it as said generalization then my bad. Next time I'll try harder to read your mind.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:11:39 PM
We are literally talking about 7th Sea. A game that doesn't take place in the real world, and was created specifically with the idea of a society where women for the most part are given equal rights as men. There is one country where this is not the case and women have no rights.
I remember when we used to play games that dont take place in the real world.
Good times, good times.
Quote from: Shasarak on September 29, 2021, 07:32:48 PM
I remember when we used to play games that dont take place in the real world.
Good times, good times.
I miss those times... then it went to shit.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PMYeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.
That's my point. If your criteria for what makes a good game is a low percentage of straight white male characters, then an easy way to make the game better is to remove more straight white male characters. Which is exactly what happened to 7th Sea.
Besides, you were the one who used the term "pandering" to describe adding female NPCs to a game when now you're saying that it isn't pandering but, instead, making a good game. Which is it?
QuoteWeird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.
You're talking about two totally unrelated things here. The number and types of NPCs in the game world has no bearing whatsoever on the character options a player has. Which is really the main problem with representation in media: the idea that you can only play a game, or like a movie, if there is a character in that game or movie that looks like you.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.
Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.
I agree. In a game like 7th Sea, I have no problem with minorities, LGBT, or women in the game. In fact, that's true of most RPG settings. Settings that are meant to be historically accurate (like your example of 1200s England) are a bit trickier in that regard.
Quote from: Shasarak on September 29, 2021, 05:59:26 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
Call me an SJW.
You are a SJW.
Any other requests, I am here all day.
Greetings!
*Laughing* ;D So funny, Shasarak!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Recently reading about this and jessica price and this wick guy got me thinking.
There has also been some talk about the terrible pay and conditions at Paizo too.
So shitty pay, shitty bosses...just intolerable unenlightened leadership at poor paying jobs...what's an adult to do?
I know this is totally radical but I thought what would happen if you tried to change jobs. Like maybe quit. But then I realized it makes more sense to bitch online, disparage everyone associated with the business in question after wallowing in misery for years.
But then again, I am a hypocrite. I had a job like that some years ago and I only stayed until I found a better job, secretly plotting my escape and spending time floating resumes. I just lack the commitment to fight the power and move on with life.
Sometimes even now I regret my better pay and working conditions and realize I should have been spending my life speaking truth to power.
Quote from: Dapig on October 01, 2021, 07:00:21 AM
Recently reading about this and jessica price and this wick guy got me thinking.
There has also been some talk about the terrible pay and conditions at Paizo too.
So shitty pay, shitty bosses...just intolerable unenlightened leadership at poor paying jobs...what's an adult to do?
I know this is totally radical but I thought what would happen if you tried to change jobs. Like maybe quit. But then I realized it makes more sense to bitch online, disparage everyone associated with the business in question after wallowing in misery for years.
But then again, I am a hypocrite. I had a job like that some years ago and I only stayed until I found a better job, secretly plotting my escape and spending time floating resumes. I just lack the commitment to fight the power and move on with life.
Sometimes even now I regret my better pay and working conditions and realize I should have been spending my life speaking truth to power.
LOL.
If you're in a job where you honestly dread getting up and going to work -- not just the usual 'bah work' but actively hate it -- it's time to start looking at other options. Send out resumes, increase your skills if you need to, network with friends and family.
And when the call comes, punch out and never look back.
I'm sure it bothers you that you didn't raise hell, but I guess as Pratchett once put it, falling into a big bag of money (or even a respectable pillow-sized bag of money) helps soothe your mind :D
Haha!
It's like basic life skills!
They post all these long screeds when they could, I dunno look for another damn job!
How many fucking cooks, bus drivers, accountants or whatever have a douchey boss? We're supposed to weep for these game rpg "luminaries" because they have a more visible job? Get bent!
Quote from: Dapig on October 01, 2021, 08:15:38 AM
Haha!
It's like basic life skills!
They post all these long screeds when they could, I dunno look for another damn job!
How many fucking cooks, bus drivers, accountants or whatever have a douchey boss? We're supposed to weep for these game rpg "luminaries" because they have a more visible job? Get bent!
Except that the people we are talking about are habitual, almost reflexive liars. They also like to indulge in drama as a tactic, and frequently don't fully understand what they are talking about.
They make "unreliable narrators" look like paragons of honesty and discernment in contrast. What you say is logical--a magical unicorn from their perspective.
AEG used to be located in SoCal so Wick & crew were often at SoCal cons and I've gamed with them many times, even playtested various of their games.
I haven't followed Wick's work very much after AEG, but I am forever grateful for his creation of Legends of the Five Rings 1e and 7th Sea 1e. Wonderfully fun games. A bit of wonkiness in the systems, but nothing that really mattered in actual play.
Did Wick have a big ego? Yeah, highly creative people often do. It takes a bit of a god complex to face a blank page and produce a book.
It will be fun to see if Wick flees from the woke scolds, kneels to them, or tears Rob Vaux and the rest a new asshole. Anyone keeping up on the debacle?
Quote from: Reckall on September 21, 2021, 06:42:43 AM
BTW, the Mods are now firmly in Wonderland.
I purchased several of Wick's 'little' games off of DriveThruRPG. Several of them are seemingly incomplete, as in there seem to be gaps in the rules. Someone commented on this and received a reply along the lines of, 'well, a good gm can still make them work. I guess this isn't for you.'
I decided I didn't need any more of his games.
Guidance:
Please keep anything related to Wick about his behavior to things you've experienced or heard. His approach to game design is irrelevant in this case. Thank you.
Isn't this dude speaking about his direct experience with John Wick's games?
No, they're criticizing design aspects of his games, not his personal behavior, and it's a needless distraction. In this case the mod call was right.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 21, 2021, 11:35:40 AMkeeping a record of stuff that happened years ago is the MO of sjdubs.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2021, 11:46:41 AMI encourage people to document and archive the socjus zealots' bullshit, since they have a habit of cleaning house if they think things are going to go into the crapper.
I have had to keep receipts for my own safety, and it's saved my ass on more than one occasion.
Quote from: ponta1010 on September 21, 2021, 04:33:44 PM
If Wick's so bad, how long before any discussion of his games are banned from RPG.net?
Good question, as it's all but inevitable.
Quote from: ChrisFox on September 21, 2021, 11:08:14 PM
Quote from: brettmb on September 21, 2021, 11:55:14 AM
Curiously, the "no personal attacks" rule went right out the window on that thread at rpg.net. Interesting how they pick and choose.
I guess it's no longer a personal attack if you've been unpersoned.
Especially when their entire ideology rests on the concept of
legitimized personhood.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 29, 2021, 01:15:23 PM
On a more recent side note. ;D
Wicki said he never 'bans' people commenting on his youtube channel, or blocks them. Basically, in order to show everyone what 'bigots' they really are.
Of course, that's not really true... I've a few youtube accounts. And I dropped a comment letting the good viewers know of the rather nice thread that's currently on rpg.net about Wicky and I was shadow banned very shortly afterwards.
It seems Wicky skin isn't quite as thick as he pretends it to be...
To be fair you cannot accurately attribute any bans, blocks, or edits to the people who actually own accounts on #YouTube as The Algorithm is capricious and will strike down anything with even a whiff of doxing, let alone suggesting people check off-site sources.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on December 14, 2021, 11:11:18 AM
To be fair you cannot accurately attribute any bans, blocks, or edits to the people who actually own accounts on #YouTube as The Algorithm is capricious and will strike down anything with even a whiff of doxing, let alone suggesting people check off-site sources.
The 'algo' would not have redacted anything that I commented on. There was no doxing or the like involved. He just didn't like my comment...
Truth hurts as they say.