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Author Topic: RPGs bad for your health?  (Read 9903 times)

Saphim

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RPGs bad for your health?
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2010, 09:26:46 AM »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;396547


Saphim, you're falling into the good old internet standby, the "fallacy of the excluded middle."

"I'm against capital punishment."
"What? So we should just let them all go?! You fucktard!"
"I'm in favour of capital punishment."
"What? So we should execute people for jaywalking?! You fucktard!"


Right back atcha.

"wow the american health system is really bad for a first world country, in other countries we take these things for granted, like you know not paying operations and stuff"
"we just need to eat properly and move a lot and everything will be fine (except some freak occurences)"
 

Spinachcat

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« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2010, 12:23:54 PM »
Kyle, good points all around.  

The West sits on its ass too much and we eat too much processed food that has been salted and sweetened to the extreme.   Even though I have an excellent diet, I am guilty of sitting for transport, work and leisure and I have to schedule exercise instead of it being a natural part of my daily actions.

It's odd because even 50 years ago, this wasn't an issue.  Some level of physical exertion was just a daily part of life for almost everyone and now we see exertion as something we must consciously add to your day.

Quote from: D-503;396539
Oh, on the US healthcare issue, I think most Americans would be amazed at the pity and incomprehension with which their system is perceived in Europe.


In the movie Sicko, you can see the US getting pitied by Cubans!

But nobody should pity the US in the slightest.   Our healthcare crisis is our own doing.  We the People are happy to crush any kind of reform and decry universal healthcare as an insidious communist plot.

Not all Americans mind you, just enough to make sure the politicians never have to go against their lobbyists.   If Obama had a nutsack, he could have rallied the populace to universal care this year - easily!  If Billy Clinton had rallied the country behind Hillary with a universal care program in 1994, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Werekoala

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« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2010, 01:09:23 PM »
There is no healthcare crisis.

We're living longer, and healthier (despite being huge whales) than at any point in human history. Imagine how much better we would be IF we were also active and ate well? Medical technology and pharmacology has done all this DESPITE Westerners being lard-asses (and I'm one, though decidedly less lardy than a couple of months ago), it hasn't turned us into them.

Nobody is going to live forever, and not everyone is going to be as healthy for as long as everyone else, no matter what. If people were dying in the streets from malnutrition or disease, THAT would be a crisis. Not being able to afford your cholesterol and blood-pressure drugs you need because you eat a whole pizza at a sitting, or having to actually (gasp) pay a deductible for a doctor visit or procedure, is not a crisis. If anything, people are OVER treated and OVER medicated. This is driven by advertising telling us we HAVE to ask our doctor about "xyz" drug, for treating something with such a huge range of symptoms that anyone can self-diagnose it and then convince themselves they need it (and their doctor too). You drive up the demand, without increasing the supply, and what happens kids?

Thankfully, Government (tm) is Here to Help!

Fat, out-of-shape hypochondriacs demanding free healthcare, because how else are they going to maintain their "lifestyle"? How could that possibly go wrong?

Also, for the record, Big Pharma was one of the BIGGEST SUPPORTERS of the Healthcare bill (government paying for drugs - the same people famous for $300 hammers - sign us up!) so I'm not sure what lobbyists Spinachcat is snorting about. And the Bill did pass, and was signed, so how much more rallying were you looking for?

Stupid "voters" - not knowing what's good for 'em! Thank god we have rational actors like politicians to make their decisions for them.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 01:18:57 PM by Werekoala »
Lan Astaslem


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Ian Absentia

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« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2010, 02:15:51 PM »
Quote from: Werekoala;396570
There is no healthcare crisis.
Systematic rises in type-2 diabetes, respiratory ailments, broad-spectrum allergies, obesity (to which you admit, but don't see as a problem), not to mention exponential increases in the cost of health maintenance costs as a result of corporate leveraging of the catastrophic insurance model.  The "crisis" may not strike you as acute, but can you deny that it's chronic?
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We're living longer, and healthier (despite being huge whales) than at any point in human history.
I've heard this argument before, invariably from people who are both overweight and with adequate health insurance coverage, by some coincidence.  Living longer and healthier lives, yet with a compromised quality of life.  Hooray for progress.
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Imagine how much better we would be IF we were also active and ate well?
And there it is. If you can imagine that, then, yes, that's part and parcel of the chronic "crisis" that you refute.
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Fat, out-of-shape hypochondriacs demanding free healthcare, because how else are they going to maintain their "lifestyle"? How could that possibly go wrong?
Hyperbole and the fallacy of the excluded middle don't suit you.  What about trim, active, health-conscious professionals who demand affordable maintenance healthcare so that they don't have to spend a disproportionate amount of their monthly salaries on supporting a wasteful, profit-driven private industry that is set up to hedge against liability to the very clientele it is intended to serve?

!i!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 02:21:05 PM by Ian Absentia »

Peregrin

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« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2010, 03:12:40 PM »
Or what about those of us born with diseases which don't come from poor lifestyle but rather genetics, those of us who require expensive, long-term treatments, the type of patients the insurance companies love to drop if they can find even a t you didn't cross on your paperwork.
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Ian Absentia

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« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2010, 03:19:39 PM »
Quote from: Peregrin;396582
Or what about those of us born with diseases which don't come from poor lifestyle but rather genetics, those of us who require expensive, long-term treatments, the type of patients the insurance companies love to drop if they can find even a t you didn't cross on your paperwork.
Hypochondriac whiners, every one of us.  Trust in private industry to do what's best for non-shareholders, because that strategy has a long and illustrious history of success.

!i!

Werekoala

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« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2010, 03:20:15 PM »
*clap, clap clap* - you take my very first sentence and twist it to your own ends. Good job!

To all you folks with actual, real diseases, who the insurance companies want to drop and all that - you probably need the help. I'm not talking about you - I'm talking about the Wal-Mart crowd (to pick a target you're all comfy with attacking).

To re-state it again - HEALTHCARE is fine. Better than ever. Never has there been more of it, or has it been more available to more people. HEALTH is NOT fine, unless you somehow equate inprovements in medicine to an increase in diabetes and the other ailments you mentioned.

Three months ago, I was taking seven pills a day for various things. I cut my calories back to 1500 a day (living like royalty, eating like a king - isn't it nice to be rich?) and walk for 10 minutes, three times a day (oh, the luxury of such time, to be able to afford to spend all day exercising!) - I've since dropped almost twenty-five pounds and I'm taking one pill a day (that I probably won't need much longer).

So, through the miracle of insurance coverage that only I and nobody else has access to, millions of dollars of disposable income, and copious free time, I've managed to reduce my medical expenses by about $150+ a month, and am looking and feeling better to boot. God damn, is it awesome to be me or what.

Do I need to finish this story to make my point?

Oh, why not. I was one of the lazy, pill-dependent people that I mentioned before. Sure, exercise, blech. Not eating to excess - man, I miss those days (not really). But with a MINIMUM of effort, I have turned myself around, saved MYSELF money (both on meds and on food), and am better off for it. And trust me, if I can do it, almost anyone can. And you know what the best part is?

I didn't demand that anyone ELSE do it for me. I didn't EXPECT taxpayers to support my program and ensure my better health. I got up off my ass for 30 minutes a day and fucking DID it. Now, hey! I'm not at the mercy of avaracious insurance or medical companies who demand that I pay hundreds of dollars for their medicines. Wow - amazing. And without Congress' help.

I have a ways to go, and I'll need to increase my effort now that the easy weight is gone, but I've come this far, so I intend to do so - by myself, most likely. If other people would do the same - imagine how much less stress there'd be on the medical system? Why, we wouldn't need to worry about raising taxes and enacting new laws so that people who take eight 'scrips a day can "afford their own" medicine. They wouldn't need expensive treatments or doctors visits as often, and likely would live healthier and longer lives. And more importantly, people who REALLY DID need doctors and medicine would be able to get both - cheaper, and faster.

But then, they'd have to give up their Big Macs and Oprah (well, 1/2 an episode at least), and we can't have that I guess. Oh Congress - please help us with the "Healthcare" crisis! I'll be sure to vote for you as soon as I can get in my Hoveround.

*spit*
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 03:39:50 PM by Werekoala »
Lan Astaslem


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Ian Absentia

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« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2010, 04:14:05 PM »
Quote from: Werekoala;396584
*clap, clap clap* - you take my very first sentence and twist it to your own ends.
No, I didn't.  It was sitting there, begging for clarification.
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I'm talking about the Wal-Mart crowd (to pick a target you're all comfy with attacking).
No, I'm really not.
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HEALTHCARE is fine. Better than ever. Never has there been more of it, or has it been more available to more people.
For those who can afford it.  The economic bar to entry and availability has been rising far in advance of wages for the last decade.  Even those who can afford it do so at an increasingly disporportionate cost to their personal incomes.  Of course, that cost becomes less disproportionate after a certain wealth threshold, one that I certainly haven't achieved.
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HEALTH is NOT fine, unless you somehow equate inprovements in medicine to an increase in diabetes and the other ailments you mentioned.
I clearly equated those sundry ailments to increased costs in healthcare.  You're leaning on the excluded middle again.
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Three months ago, I was taking seven pills a day for various things. I cut my calories back to 1500 a day (living like royalty, eating like a king - isn't it nice to be rich?) and walk for 10 minutes, three times a day (oh, the luxury of such time, to be able to afford to spend all day exercising!) - I've since dropped almost twenty-five pounds and I'm taking one pill a day (that I probably won't need much longer).
So you were receiving sub-par healthcare that addressed only your symptoms instead of promoting your welfare.  Is this an example of "the best medical care in the world" that I hear about so often?  Do you think you would have received better care and advice if you'd been more affluent?  Lucky you that you're so strong-headed, smart, and disciplined -- and I mean that -- because not being wealthy enough to afford real quality healthcare wasn't doing you any favors.

You actually help make my point, and I'm largely onboard with your disdain for the culture of victimhood.  But, man, it looks like you're giving private industry a pass on the very same complaints you register against big government.  It appears that it's okay to be bloated and incompetent as long as a private interest can profit from it, instead of a bureaucracy frittering its funding away. That's fucked up no matter which way you cut it.

!i!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 04:16:25 PM by Ian Absentia »

Werekoala

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« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2010, 04:21:24 PM »
Saying that the choice is between letting industry do it or government do it is ALSO an excluded middle - a huge one. That excluded middle is letting the PERSON do it for themself. Seriously, people need to be responsible for their own health, as much as possible (again, not counting those who are really seriously ill and need treatments), and then *poof* they'll save money and won't be at the mercy of either industry OR government. Until such time as Big Pharma can find a way to force pills down your throat, there are only two ways to stop them - don't send them your money (because you're taking care of yourself and so don't NEED to send it to them) or have government control it.

Ah, but there's that nasty "self control", "personal responsibility" thing again. I'm so heartless. Its easier to let Washington do it.

There's a REASON you can't watch 5 minutes of TV without seeing a pill commercial for something - and its not that everyone is sicker, its that industry WANTS YOU TO THINK you are. And pay up.

Again - only government can put a gun to your head and force you to fork over the cash. Business can't... unless they can get Washington to do it for them (again, Pharma was a support of the Healthcare bill because there will be a far GREATER demand for their product when it is paid for and mandated by Washington). If you don't want them rolling around in swimming-pools full of cash, then how about we all get healthier instead of taking a pill for anything and everything.
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Ian Absentia

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« Reply #84 on: July 29, 2010, 04:45:37 PM »
Quote from: Werekoala;396590
Ah, but there's that nasty "self control", "personal responsibility" thing again. I'm so heartless. Its easier to let Washington do it.

There's a REASON you can't watch 5 minutes of TV without seeing a pill commercial for something - and its not that everyone is sicker, its that industry WANTS YOU TO THINK you are. And pay up.

[...snip...]

If you don't want them rolling around in swimming-pools full of cash, then how about we all get healthier instead of taking a pill for anything and everything.
And there's the healthcare "crisis" in a nutshell.  Two nutshells, I suppose.  US healthcare has become a consumer industry instead of a humanitarian service.  Throw affordable "wellness" education/health maintenance medical checkups -- the sort of thing your family doctor is supposed to do -- onto that last sentence and I'm totally onboard.

See?  You and I go 'round and 'round on each other enough, we end up agreeing.  That's why I always end up liking you despite our rather polar political views.  And, yes, I mean that.

!i!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 04:48:02 PM by Ian Absentia »

Spinachcat

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« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2010, 05:02:34 PM »
Quote from: Werekoala;396570
Also, for the record, Big Pharma was one of the BIGGEST SUPPORTERS of the Healthcare bill (government paying for drugs - the same people famous for $300 hammers - sign us up!) so I'm not sure what lobbyists Spinachcat is snorting about. And the Bill did pass, and was signed, so how much more rallying were you looking for?


I was completely against the "Healthcare Bill" because it offers no real reform.   The only "radical" idea in the whole bill is that insurers can't discriminate against pre-existing conditions.  But other than that, it's status quo all the way.

That's why Big Pharma and their lobbyists supported it wholeheartedly.  We need Universal Healthcare with a complete refocus on preventative medicine.   Not a pill dispenser on every corner.

Quote from: Werekoala;396584
To re-state it again - HEALTHCARE is fine. Better than ever. Never has there been more of it, or has it been more available to more people.


Wow.

I dare you to visit the poor.   Or just the working class single parents.    Or just some old people.  They don't live like middle class Americans.  

We have millions of senior citizens who are barely able to afford medication and food.   These are fellow Americans who worked all their life for the benefit of the next generation.   We have so much because of the lifelong efforts of these seniors and those who came before them.

But they're old so fuck'em?

Quote from: Werekoala;396584
If other people would do the same - imagine how much less stress there'd be on the medical system? Why, we wouldn't need to worry about raising taxes and enacting new laws so that people who take eight 'scrips a day can "afford their own" medicine. They wouldn't need expensive treatments or doctors visits as often, and likely would live healthier and longer lives. And more importantly, people who REALLY DID need doctors and medicine would be able to get both - cheaper, and faster.


You are 100% right.

But that's a preventative medical focus.   And that requires a focus on education of the populace.   This is the Health Reform I want to see and Big Pharma isn't behind it.

There was a time the US had "for profit" fire departments.   You would pay for "fire protection" or if your house was on fire, they would offer you a chance to pay them.   Obviously, this was a crappy system.

It's the same with the US health system.  If you take out the absurd level of profit motive from healthcare, you get a system that can focus on preventitive care.   Your local fire department doesn't want more fires and would prefer less 911 calls and that's why they focus on fire prevention.

And capitalism is still alive in the fire world.   Lots of companies are working every day on new fire alert, prevention and extinguishing technologies.   We can do the same with healthcare.

Werekoala

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« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2010, 05:13:41 PM »
Quote from: Ian Absentia;396594
And there's the healthcare "crisis" in a nutshell.  Two nutshells, I suppose.  US healthcare has become a consumer industry instead of a humanitarian service.  Throw affordable "wellness" education/health maintenance medical checkups -- the sort of thing your family doctor is supposed to do -- onto that last sentence and I'm totally onboard.

See?  You and I go 'round and 'round on each other enough, we end up agreeing.  That's why I always end up liking you despite our rather polar political views.  And, yes, I mean that.


The problem is that "going to see the doctor" morphed into "healthcare" - not the same thing at all. You go to see the doctor when you're sick; you have healtcare as an ongoing thing. As you said, it becomes a consumer product and service, not something that is only used as needed, then it becomes an industry, then it becomes marketing... and then you have legislation.

And I like you, too - I just get frothy all the time and it gets in the way of sanity (working on that too).

And SC - when did I say "fuck 'em" when they get old? Do you agree or disagree that as a whole, even with all the problems, people are living longer and healthier lives than ever in human history? That's what I said. HEALTHCARE is better than ever. Just because everyone doesn't have it at equal levels isn't a problem with the treatments or medicines.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 05:24:03 PM by Werekoala »
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RPGs bad for your health?
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2010, 07:17:02 AM »
It is true that the US healthcare system is generally overpriced and shite, and the poor get fucked in the arse without any lube and not even dinner beforehand.

It's also true that many people are born with conditions which have not much to do with their lifestyle, though they may made worse by it.

But it's also true, as Kurt says, that many issues of quality of life and general health can be addressed by eating good food and moving your body. And it's those sorts of health issues we're usually talking about with the typical gamer with his spaghetti arms and "alpha male bump".

People who eat badly and don't move their bodies much tend to be sick more often, are constipated or have diaorrhea most days, have mysterious aches and pains in back, knee and hip, have depressed affect, and aren't terribly high in the self-esteem department. As they improve their diet and move their bodies more they lose those aches and pains, get sick less often, go to the toilet normally, and feel overall happier and more fulfilled.

And some of them become arrogant and say that anyone who's like they used to be is a lazy lardarse. But a dietary and exercise change can be a difficult thing to get started, and difficult to keep up with. So I don't blame or scorn, I just encourage.

We definitely need more focus on prevention rather than cure, though. It was better when kids have home economics classes so they knew how to cook, and when kids walked to school and played outside a lot.
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jibbajibba

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« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2010, 08:19:19 AM »
I am failing to understand the Koala position.

Can someone enlighten me.
If I can sum up his argument thusly

i) Healthcare in the states must be good because people are living longer
ii) Therefore since the free market system provides such excellent healthcare its hte best system.
iii) There are too many adverts on TV for drugs and healthcare stuff
iv) People in the US comsume too much and are overmedicated
v) Its up to the indivual to take control of their own lifestyle
vi) Excpecting the government to fix it is lazy and pathetic

Is it just me or is there some inconsistencies here

i) Its the healthcare for profit system in the US that generates the adverts
ii) Its the adverts and sweeteners given to doctors that leads to overmedication which is what the companies providing eh care want as its driven by profit
iii) From i and ii above we can see that obviously the private healthcare for profit model is 'broken' as it relies on overmedication and individuals refusing to take responsibility for their own lifestyles becuase they pay professionals a lot of money to do that for them

I also suspect that there is a lack of awareness of some basic facts here

i) Life expectancy  - the US is the 38th ranked country in life expectancy in the world behind Cuba, Macao and Greece (as well as 34 other countries of course)
ii) GDP spend on Healthcare - The US is ranked number one spending 15.4% of GDP on healthcare a whopping 4.5% more then Switzerland in second place (by the way Switzerland is ranked 4th in average life expectancy)
iii) Despite having a private system in which 15% of the population have no insurance and 35% have insufficient insurance the US is ranked 3rd globally in government spending on healthcare at $2033 per capita.
iv) The disparity between ethnicity (Black men have a 5 year lower life expectancy that whites) and wealth are amongst the highest in western developed nations
v) Doctors in the US earn on average twice what doctors earn in Europe and yet the number of doctors per person in the US is ranked 54th in the world below heavy hitters like North Korea, Uruguay (for Pundit ranked 15th) and Kazakhstan

Yeah you have absolutely no Healthcare crisis. Have another twinkie, put Oprah on and don't worry about it ...
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Cranewings

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« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2010, 10:40:46 AM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;396664
Yeah you have absolutely no Healthcare crisis. Have another twinkie, put Oprah on and don't worry about it ...


That's what I've BEEN doing.