Quote from: J ArcaneYeah, but the problem there is not the mechanics.  It's the LOTR is one of the most boring books ever written.

Well, let's say both books tie in this specific category.
ICE books often read like some kind of technical manual. Without the clear structure or decent TeX typography

Quote from: J ArcaneMechanically it's the same as Dec Trek, which is one of the best damn books and games ever, and if anything slightly simpler than D20 (on which is rather heavily based).

D20 is rather complicated. The core mechanism might be simple enough, but so is RM's. Basically any game with a separate roll for parrying is more complicated...

Not many games have as many combat options as D20 does. Attacks of Opportunity, trips, bull rushes (badly done), overrun (WTF?), grapples (show of hands who understands all the rules 'bout this sucker)... This in combination with all the feats and that every spell acts as a specific rules addenda adds to the hidden complexity of modern D&D.

If I'm not mistaken, the Decipher system removes some of that complexity, but still retains most of the features. I'm not particularly fond of the 2d6 spread, though.

Quote from: J Arcane...  I've read MERP.  I've read, and played quite a bit of D&D.  MERP was more complicated by far...

One question: how is that this 'more complicated MERP' was able to keep all of its rules -- including charts -- in a single book of 128 pages, whereas the 'simpler' D&D 3e requires 3 books of 400+ pages?


Anyhow, I have to give a lecture in 8 hours, so I'm out.  Otherwise, I'd further dissect and destroy your objections.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'll speak to that.

If I have to refence more than one chart during play, I won't run the game.  Simple as that.  They're boring, stutifying, aggravating, confining, and annoying.

This is largely my feelign as well.  I don't mind charts and tables BEFORE play, like lifepath tables in CP2020, or random dungeon tables, but in play, they can bugger off.

Just having to reference a special table to find wound results in SWD6 was one of my biggest annoyances with what was otherwise a very simple game.

Quote from: AkrasiaOne question: how is that this 'more complicated MERP' was able to keep all of its rules -- including charts -- in a single book of 128 pages, whereas the 'simpler' D&D 3e requires 3 books of 400+ pages?


Anyhow, I have to give a lecture in 8 hours, so I'm out.  Otherwise, I'd further dissect and destroy your objections.

THat's funny, the book I read was 272 pages, almost all of it rules, with, I might add, a remarkable lack of actual Middle Earth related material.  I tihnk the most useful part of the book was the bit in the back that gave complete rules on how to just convert to another system not so damn complicated, like AD&D. and be done with it.  Even the creators didn't think much of it apparently.  

D&D's cure rules do fit in one book.  You take the PHB, add a few pages from the DMG and MM, and you've got one complete book with all the core rules.  

What doesn't fit in one book are the countless extra optional resources for GMs, like an entire book filled with fun critters, and another book filled with GM advice, tools, and nifty loot to hand the PCs.

Charts can be good or bad depending on the context.

I guess you could divide it between "tables" and "charts".  "Tables" are things that can be rolled at random, more or less, to add details/flavour to an environment or situation.  I ADORE random tables; Toolbox is still one of my favourite D20 supplements ever.

"Charts", on the other hand, are when you use the same methods as a required means of referencing results for mechanics, which is boring as all fuck.

The intermediate point are things like "critical charts", which are capable of being unbelievably fucking cool if they are well done, like WFRP's.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneThat's funny, the book I read was 272 pages, almost all of it rules, with, I might add, a remarkable lack of actual Middle Earth related material.

I have to disagree here, at least if you're talking about MERP. The different peoples of Middle Earth are quite well - described, with some interesting mechanical options for each one. I will agree that MERP system is not the most faithful to Middle Earth (IMO, Decipher CODA system made a most excellent work in recreating the feeling of the world, though the combat system is very broken).

And I think that the supplimental material released from ICE is, without exception, top - notch. So much, actually, that I run my Middle Earth games using either CODA system or Legends of Middle Earth (wonderful little game that you can get for free!), but I always use MERP books as reference.

I love MERP / RM dearly

Quote from: J ArcaneTHat's funny, the book I read was 272 pages, almost all of it rules, with, I might add, a remarkable lack of actual Middle Earth related material.  

Well, there were different printings of the game.  I suspect that you're referring to the second edition (1993), which was essentially the same game but -- contrary to your claim -- added information on Middle-earth, and included something like 20 pages of pregen characters for completely mysterious reasons.

Both first and second editions also included two complete adventures within the core rules.

I had no trouble 'mastering' the MERP rules after a single reading when I was 12 years old.  I went on to run many successful campaigns.  It was certainly relatively easy and intuitive for me.

:shrug:

Quote from: J ArcaneI tihnk the most useful part of the book was the bit in the back that gave complete rules on how to just convert to another system not so damn complicated, like AD&D. and be done with it.  

Even the creators didn't think much of it apparently.

:confused:

There were conversion rules in the Middle-earth modules (for AD&D and Runequest), but not in the core rules.  They were included simply to make the campaign settings and adventures useful for a wider audience.  That was smart marketing, not an admission by the creators that they thought 'more highly' of these other games.

Quote from: RPGPundit... The intermediate point are things like "critical charts", which are capable of being unbelievably fucking cool if they are well done, like WFRP's....

If you like WFRP's critical charts, you should definitely check out the critical charts in Arms Law (the combat book for Rolemaster).  They're WFRP's critical charts turned up to 11. :cool:

Quote from: AkrasiaObviously.  I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone here.  And I'm not a Rolemaster 2e 'fundamentalist' by any stretch of the imagination.  I like Basic/RC D&D, C&C, and True20 very much as well.

And just to be clear, I played RM2 for nearly a decade, and I think it's fucking brilliant game. We always used RMC1 & 2, btw, and picked and chose from later Comps. It's been a while, but I'd still say that those comps (particularly the skill definitions in RMC2) are necessary to fully utilise the system.

I never liked AD&D (and never played Basic/RC D&D - we playing Runequest and Traveller pretty much exclusively in those days) and so D&D3e was an amazing bolt from the blue for me. I had to get over a great deal of "D&D? No fucking way!" prejudice before I would even try 3rd ed, but when I did was very impressed.

And just to compound my sins, the final nail in the coffin of my conversion to D20 was reading the Gamism article on T** F****. I am a bad man.

Ned

Quote from: ImperatorI have to disagree here, at least if you're talking about MERP. The different peoples of Middle Earth are quite well - described, with some interesting mechanical options for each one. I will agree that MERP system is not the most faithful to Middle Earth (IMO, Decipher CODA system made a most excellent work in recreating the feeling of the world, though the combat system is very broken).

And I think that the supplimental material released from ICE is, without exception, top - notch. So much, actually, that I run my Middle Earth games using either CODA system or Legends of Middle Earth (wonderful little game that you can get for free!), but I always use MERP books as reference.

I love MERP / RM dearly

The supplemental stuff was quite nice yes, I particularly liked the Elvish dictionary that came in one of the companion books.  Comes in very handy even in non-Tolkien games.  

QuoteThere were conversion rules in the Middle-earth modules (for AD&D and Runequest), but not in the core rules. They were included simply to make the campaign settings and adventures useful for a wider audience. That was smart marketing, not an admission by the creators that they thought 'more highly' of these other games.

Look in the back of your 2nd edition book, it's there.  If you don't have one, MERP.com can provide you with one for no charge.

Quote from: J ArcaneThe supplemental stuff was quite nice yes, I particularly liked the Elvish dictionary that came in one of the companion books.  Comes in very handy even in non-Tolkien games.

I would have loved if the CODA system had made such a fine cultural distinctions as MERP does at the mechanical level. I'm working on and off in adapting the different races of MERP to CODA. Actually, the only part of MERP that was to me truly un-tolkienesque was the magic system. The rest of the game is cool as hell.

This talk of charts and tables is fucking with my comfort level!

I'm glad the RPGSite is here, because it gives Blakkie the opportunity to bitch.

I think a number of people here would feel a whole bunch better if they would just go outside and remove the TP decorating their house.

Lack of familiarity with a game's mechanics does not mean the game is complicated. By the same token familiarity with a game's mechanics does not mean the game is simple.

I kid because I find all this storm and fury funny as fuck.

Quote from: J Arcane... Look in the back of your 2nd edition book, it's there.  If you don't have one, MERP.com can provide you with one for no charge.

Well I'll be damned ... you're right.  I always assumed that it simply covered Rolemaster and HERO (since ICE owned HERO at that time).  

My apologies.  :imsorry:

Still, I don't see how including this material indicates that the authors in any way thought less of their own system.

Quote from: Imperator.... Actually, the only part of MERP that was to me truly un-tolkienesque was the magic system. The rest of the game is cool as hell.

I agree with this 100 percent.