Quote from: BalbinusFor a while some designers tried to make this a moral issue, equating sharing a book among the group with copyright theft.

The public was, in the main, unsympathetic to their argument I think it is fair to say.  Probably because their argument was bollocks.

Yeah, it's use of a physical copy and doesn't infringe any of the owner's rights.

I do think it kinda sucks though, to have a group play a game for a year and not buy even a second copy.  I want people making cool games to continue to do so, so if I play a game I buy it.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonYeah, it's use of a physical copy and doesn't infringe any of the owner's rights.

I do think it kinda sucks though, to have a group play a game for a year and not buy even a second copy.  I want people making cool games to continue to do so, so if I play a game I buy it.

Sure, but often it just won't get used.

In my group I can count on one hand the number of times we've needed a second book at the table, generally one is enough to enable play.

Any business model predicated on selling folk stuff they don't actually have a use for is flawed, which is what led to the splatbook phenomenon - books players would actually want to buy and use.

But CoC or Gurps?  In my experience one copy at the table is plenty.  If a given group finds it useful to have more then no doubt they'll buy more, but my experience is fairly common and few people buy books to support the industry (not a practice I would personally encourage anyway).

A game like Exalted (or WotGs), on the other hand, almost requires this.  I've not been willing to run Exalted for my group just because no one else owns the book and no one else has read the book - even folk with easy access.  The prospect of running the game under those conditions is nightmarish, especially considering how mechanically involved it has been in groups where every member has owned and read the book.

Unless folk are actively borrowing the book(s) I think any well developed setting, say a classic D&D setting, is going to be more fun where folk have their own copies and can incorporate that setting into character background, in character stories, and decision making.

One factor at work is, to my mind, the easy availability of distrubution these days. A few years ago, you either:

a) Printed a book a sold it through three tier distro

or

b) Sneakily printed a few copies using the work photocopier and handed them our locally.

Now, I realise this is a gross oversimplification, but there is a kernel of truth. Switch now and you can put your PDF on RPGnow for next to nothing. You can have book printed in short runs for a handful of dollars. So, rather than a photocopied printout, you can have a nice book in your hands. Is this a good or bad thing? Thats not for me to say.

There is a parallel* with the music industry and downloaded music: nowadays you can release a song on MP3 and have it listened to by hundred, maybe thousands of people. A few years ago, who would have heard it? A few people who bought your single at gigs? Hell, I've been to loads of gigs where I've bought CDs produced by the bands themselves, loved them, but the bands never got any exposure outside a limited area. Now they can have people in Vladivostok, Libreville and Montevideo listening to them.

So, ease of distribution, the falling cost of production and the ease of communication all mean that more people are encourage to not only create games (which they have been doing since our hobby started) but bring them to the attention of a wider audience. Some will fall by the wayside, some will have some success, others will be huge successes.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonI'm with One Horse.  This isn't new and nothing has changed except, possibly, more people hearing about and trying small press games.  Look at how well Spirit of the Century has done (according to Fred's blog, very very well for a small press game).

The thing that hurts the indie community is their aversion to marketing their games.  More indie authors need to make use of message boards, LiveJournal, reviewers, and other resources to get people talking about their products.

Fred is a machine when it comes to publicity. God knows, I try, but that man is a dynamo. I've heard a rumour he doesn't actually sleep and has cloned himself to work harder.

Joking aside, publicity is a tricky beast. The line between being a shill everywhere you go and being too reticent about your product is a very one indeed. The Evilhat boys have mastered the art of friendly, open communication, extolling the virtues of their games without being overbearing. I certainly take many lessons from them.

Cheers
Malcolm

* I never said it was a very good parallel.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonI'm with One Horse.  This isn't new and nothing has changed except, possibly, more people hearing about and trying small press games.

I beg to differ. It has changed dramatically, compared to the 90s. How many 7th Sea supplements per year are coming out these days? None, not because the game is dead but because AEG hardly do RPGs any more. GURPS 4E: a new edition, supported by two books a year. How many Orpheus supplements do you own? Etc., etc.

As was implicitly argued in recent threads, in the 21st century supply has been narrowed down from satisfying a reading demand to satisfying actual play demand.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI beg to differ. It has changed dramatically, compared to the 90s. How many 7th Sea supplements per year are coming out these days? None, not because the game is dead but because AEG hardly do RPGs any more. GURPS 4E: a new edition, supported by two books a year. How many Orpheus supplements do you own? Etc., etc.

As was implicitly argued in recent threads, in the 21st century supply has been narrowed down from satisfying a reading demand to satisfying actual play demand.

Only when you limit yourself to looking at the Mid tier publishers, who are getting squeezed out by WotC on the top and a million Small Press and Indie publishers from below. Look at the new products coming out on OneBookShelf, for example.

-clash

Yes, if you go there, certainly... but I've always been wondering how much of the stuff that isn't either "3 New Bags of Holding" or serious small press material (of which there's not THAT much) actually gets bought in four-digit quantities.

Given my known pdf scepticism, I may be off... but how many people buy 200pp. pdfs for reading?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityYes, if you go there, certainly... but I've always been wondering how much of the stuff that isn't either "3 New Bags of Holding" or serious small press material (of which there's not THAT much) actually gets bought in four-digit quantities.

Given my known pdf scepticism, I may be off... but how many people buy 200pp. pdfs for reading?

For reading? I wouldn't know if they are reading or playing, but my 200+pp stuff outsells my small stuff by about 10-1 at least. StarCluster 2 is my best seller, and almost hits 300pp. Then again, I don't write about "3 Bags of Holding" either. YMMV.

-clash

Quote from: grubmanNext month we start a Star Wars Saga Campaign.  I have about 4 months of adventures planned.  Beyond the core RPG book, and the minis I already own, nothing will be purchased.

Not even the new Starships of the Galaxy?

Quote from: C.W.RichesonThe thing that hurts the indie community is their aversion to marketing their games.  More indie authors need to make use of message boards, LiveJournal, reviewers, and other resources to get people talking about their products.

Please define "indie" in this particular case, because from where I'm looking at it there's a lot of guerrilla marketing out there.

Quote from: JongWKPlease define "indie" in this particular case, because from where I'm looking at it there's a lot of guerrilla marketing out there.

Indie: Creator owned small press works.

Some people do excellent marketing but, on the whole, I've found a lot of concern over 'being a shill' and a general aversion to it.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonIndie: Creator owned small press works.

Some people do excellent marketing but, on the whole, I've found a lot of concern over 'being a shill' and a general aversion to it.

Exactly. The problem is the people who keep engaging in dubious marketing tactics ("being a shill", suggesting games that have nothing to do with what a gamer is looking for, etc).

Quote from: SkywalkerNot even the new Starships of the Galaxy?

I should have put that differently...I WILL buy every supplement that comes out for the game, I guess I meant to say no one else in the group will buy anything, and I really don't NEED to buy anything.  If I was less anal about owning everything, I probably would pick and choose what I purchase.

What I meant to say is that it's really easy to get by with just a core book for most games, especially if they are complete, and you like doing your own thing.  I could play forever with the D&D rules Cyclopedia without the need or desire to buy anything.  Same for the D&D 3 core books.  Star Wars is a little different, because, as far as setting I'm not "doing my own thing" I'm working in the framework of someone elses thing...so supplements are good for me.

I also meant that I won't need any OTHER RPGs durring the time of play.  When you figure hundreds of RPS and supplemental material comes out each month, when I go 6 months without buying misc. crap, that's a lot of cash I'm not pumping into the RPG market.

Quote from: JongWKExactly. The problem is the people who keep engaging in dubious marketing tactics ("being a shill", suggesting games that have nothing to do with what a gamer is looking for, etc).

I meant that a lot of indie authors do not engage in marketing because they're overly concerned with this perception, NOT that a lot of shilling occurs.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonI meant that a lot of indie authors do not engage in marketing because they're overly concerned with this perception, NOT that a lot of shilling occurs.

They should all watch Fred Hicks -- he knows his shit on this topic.  By which I mean he sells the games without looking like a shill.  He's a real and enthusiastic participant without getting either salesmanoid or defensive.  He sold me.  Hell he sold me on games he hasn't even written yet.