Which ties in with what I'm about to say, that Batman may operate outside the law but he's not in it for himself. Soylent Green is right about fantasy plots in literature, particularly in the wake of Tolkien, but like earlier S&S literature, fantasy gaming can and often does feature PCs who are in it for barely-disguised greed and ambition. They go where they want, take on whatever challenges they feel like beating, kill 'em and take their stuff, or die trying. The world goes on either way.

Batman doesn't pick & choose which villains to face. And for many super-heroes, the stakes are such that if they "lose", a great deal of "the campaign" goes up in smoke.

For these reasons I believe that fantasy, particularly the S&S subgenre, is more open to less-constrained, player-guided play. Even if it's as simple as deciding whether to risk trying to open a locked, possibly trapped chest or move on to the next room.

Stuart's also right about dungeons specifically, because they limit choice (which makes preparation easy) without removing it entirely. If you could fit the idea of a dungeon into other genres, it would help, but somehow they're most easily accepted in fantasy.

(Should I pre-emptively suggest that people avoid the unhelpful and misguided tack regarding "dungeons" that may be found here? Somehow I feel a redux may be coming on...)

A fantasy world is different enough to be interesting and give us a comfortable separation between us and our characters and their actions, but familiar enough to be easy to get into.

Also, noism's point about fantasy letting you just play rather than be critiqued is also a good one. So there are both positive things about it, and avoiding-negative things about it.

Quote from: Stuart;285356The 4e system mixed with the IP from Marvel and/or DC would be absolutely killer.

It's not a D&D game system - it's a Superheroes game system they've tried to square-peg-round-hole D&D into.  I have very little interest in 4e... but if I could play 4e with the X-men with all the minis and buildings and stuff?

That would be so awesome!

I think I disagree. Superheroes are all about innovation (power stunts, that is doing things the flexible way) and picking maneuvers from a list you can use X times a day--is so not an aspect of comic book fiction. It's also worth noting that miniature games with superheroes--Marvel and DC Heroclix, and Marvel Heroscape have not done incredibly well. (I think Heroclix was more of a success than Heroscape, which has had no supplements since its release.)

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;285174I can't. I can't name the guns, the locations, or any of that stuff. I tried to run a western style game once set in the "Deserts of Montana" and a bunch of people told me there weren't any deserts there. Also I got the indian tribes wrong.

Fantasy lets you make it up. I could make up an indian tribe called the "Wahuaca Crows" or something, but I bet someone would come along and point out that I totally made that name up.

Also I agree with Technomancer- lack of perceived authority means that players are the authority. Many people who have never really "gotten" fantasy are totally amazed by that type of freedom.

I agree completely.  There's no guy at the table with a Masters in "Fantasy" to tell you about how you got the details wrong....well said, AM.

edit: doh, yeah, and Technomancer, too.

Quote from: Silverlion;285370I think I disagree. Superheroes are all about innovation (power stunts, that is doing things the flexible way) and picking maneuvers from a list you can use X times a day--is so not an aspect of comic book fiction.

I can buy into it for superheroes a lot easier than I can for a Swords & Sorcery fighter.

That is an interesting distinction Elliot makes. Fantasy characters in rpgs are nomrally in in for themselves, superheroes for the greater good. Chances are by the end of the adventure both will have gained a bucket of XP as reward, however the fantasy character is likely to also have a piles of gold and magical items.

Is the fundamental difference then that in fantasy characters get to loot? Is it reward system is simply more erm... rewading in fantaasy games?

In Fantasy (and especially a dungeon crawl) it's the environment that is a major part of the challenge, and focus of the adventure. The journey through the underworld is something you don't see in a lot of other genres.  Notable exceptions in popular film: The Goonies, Big Trouble in Little China.

Quote from: kregmosier;285372There's no guy at the table with a Masters in "Fantasy" to tell you about how you got the details wrong...

Ever play in the Forgotten Realms with a real fan of the setting?

The history may be fictional, but it's no less real to those who obsess over the setting.

Quote from: The Shaman;285447Ever play in the Forgotten Realms with a real fan of the setting?

The history may be fictional, but it's no less real to those who obsess over the setting.

That happens in any setting, though. I know of several mighty flamewars that have erupted over canon controversies in Traveller.

Or Middle Earth

Quote from: jeff37923;285454That happens in any setting, though. I know of several mighty flamewars that have erupted over canon controversies in Traveller.

Most definitely.

I'm disagreeing with the idea that just because it's a made-up world doesn't mean there can't be arguments about it.

Please excuse the double-negative.

Quote from: The Shaman;285456Most definitely.

I'm disagreeing with the idea that just because it's a made-up world doesn't mean there can't be arguments about it.

Please excuse the double-negative.

Gotcha.

Quote from: The Shaman;285447Ever play in the Forgotten Realms with a real fan of the setting?

The history may be fictional, but it's no less real to those who obsess over the setting.

I was in a campaign DM'd by a Forgotten Realms fan. It was like being in a very nice house full of things you can't touch because you'll break them or get them dirty.

"So I've put that my halfling character worships Hestia.."

"Hestia doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms."

"OK, so let's say Hestia is an aspect of this nature goddess which apparently halflings worship.."

"No, but she doesn't have that aspect."

"Yeah but..wuh..no...right you are then."

"Anyway, if you were a priest of Hestia you'd be at a disadvantage, because no one else in the Forgotten Realms worships her, so you'd never be able to find your temple if you went to a city."

"Hang on for a second. I'm going to ring the guy who wrote Forgotten Realms and get his permission for you to change it." [may not have been said aloud]

To be fair, I don't think the setting was to blame.

Quote from: Age of Fable;285462To be fair, I don't think the setting was to blame.

No doubt.

Quote from: Soylent Green;285386Is the fundamental difference then that in fantasy characters get to loot? Is it reward system is simply more erm... rewading in fantaasy games?

Well, sort of. I'm not really suggesting that imaginary treasure is much more important than imaginary experience points. Rather that, at any moment, characters on a treasure-hunting expedition can pretty much follow their whims and focus on big or small objectives. Batman doesn't walk through the bad guy's lair, see something off to the side, and ask himself, "I wonder what this button does? Let's push it and find out!"