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Author Topic: Ron Edward's Champions Now  (Read 17938 times)

Darrin Kelley

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2020, 12:20:18 PM »
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1143935
IOW, Champion New Millennium didn't fail because of the Champions grognards as those people weren't even the game's target audience.

First edition Champions: New Millenium was an objectively bad product. Not playtested. With an incomplete unfinished game system. Champions: New Millemium 2nd Edition was even more of an attempt to shoehorn Hero System mechanics into Fuzion. When it needed to be its own thing. As a result, both of those editions failed pretty spectacularly.

I own both of those products. The grognards freelancing for the company were constantly putting pressure on the original owners to go back to the Hero System and publish Hero System 5th Edition. Which they had flat out rejected as being the wrong direction for their company.

They were being trolled so constantly from within and without that their products couldn't succeed.
 

shuddemell

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« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2020, 12:36:53 PM »
I too, own both those products, and it's one thing we definitely agree on. CNM wasn't ready for publication due to both rushing an untested system to market and it's unresolved identity crisis. Neither of these did Fuzion, Hero or any of the people involved any good. Though I still wonder how it is that a company decided a course of action was in it's best interest, and yet they allowed people griping about what they wanted to change what they believed to be their best course? While there are certainly parallels with the woke and SJW crowd, I am not sure it is really trolling if the people are just telling the company what they would like to see. In fact, sounds like customer service. Or is it only trolling when it doesn't achieve the result you want? Seems that the staff at Hero rethought their position and decided on a different course of action (and right or wrong, that is their choice.) At the time I looked forward to a new Hero/Fuzion, but neither materialized in a playable way, so at least for most of us 5th Edition was the way forward. And I would submit, if I as a grognard bought Champions Now and yet was unwilling to try something new, why would I waste my money that way? You assume a lot about other people's motives, especially re: trolling, that perhaps aren't really accurate.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 12:39:31 PM by shuddemell »
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.Bruce Lee

He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

Darrin Kelley

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2020, 01:22:39 PM »
I'm mischaracterizing nothing. I lived through the Fuzion mess and watched it unfold. There was a ton constant trolling from the pro-5th edition side. Straight up harassment of the original owners. Who didn't want to publish it.
 

shuddemell

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #108 on: August 09, 2020, 02:13:09 PM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143950
I'm mischaracterizing nothing. I lived through the Fuzion mess and watched it unfold. There was a ton constant trolling from the pro-5th edition side. Straight up harassment of the original owners. Who didn't want to publish it.

Define trolling in this context. I fail to see how anyone can force someone to publish something they don't want to.
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.Bruce Lee

He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

Darrin Kelley

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #109 on: August 09, 2020, 02:36:20 PM »
Constant sustained harassment. Online and off. It doesn't get more plain than that.
 

shuddemell

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« Reply #110 on: August 09, 2020, 02:56:42 PM »
Actually it could be more plain. Were there threats of violence? Or was it just people voicing their opinion? How did they force them to publish something that they didn't want to publish. You seem to be saying that somehow they forced them to publish against their will. Exactly how did that work? I don't know about you, but if I didn't want to do something, I don't care what you say, I am not doing it. Period, flat out, so there has to be more than that. People are easy to ignore.
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.Bruce Lee

He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

Abraxus

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #111 on: August 09, 2020, 04:00:01 PM »
From what i have seen at TBP before being banned years ago and on their forums the Hero Grognards are imo very much any change of any kind. When asked what they would do to try and reverse Hero Games downward, they either refuse to answer or just parrot repeat no change and maintaining the status quo. I can't talk about how the Hero System Grognards were toward Fuzion yet again not surprised. I would not be surprised if it was the same damnthing. No solutions other keeping and maintaining the status quo and any major changes will destroy the Hero System. Not that it's in a bag shape as it it is or anything it's in perfect health after all.

Whether it is here or another rpg forum try and start a conversation about trying to improve the state of Hero Games and/or the Hero System the same thing happens almost everytime. It's only different if say someone writes in the OP that if someone is going to respond to not post comments as maintaining the status quo and no changes.


It's like the Dark Eye they keep trying to make inroads to the North American market yet another example of an rpg company catering to their grognards and it dies on the vine. Especially with gamers who have been spooled with the D20 system.

Darrin Kelley

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #112 on: August 09, 2020, 04:51:21 PM »
It's even worse than that. If you say anything contrary to the party line anywhere on the net, they will know and they will do their best to make sure you are banned. They hold a tyrannical sway over that community and subject. So you are either with them, or you are the enemy to be obliterated from the internet.

There was an incident I heard of at a GenCon over 20 years ago about a bunch of the Hero elite going over to the publisher of a smaller competing superhero game. And literally bullying them out of the building in a mafia-style manner. I heard this account face to face from one of the perpetrators. So know it to be true. He was bragging. Showing pride for that behavior. And I was just disgusted.

I checked privately with that small publisher about that account. And they confirmed it happened exactly as described.

So I'm more than a detractor. I'm a witness.

The core Hero community was toxic before the term was popularized in the media. They thought they were untouchable. Unaccountable. But with the rise of publishers they couldn't bully out of existence, they aren't as relevant or valuable to the superhero RPG hobby as they were. Other games have knocked the Hero System off the pedestal it was once securely held above all others.

I don't celebrate the current condition Hero Games is in. Quite to the contrary. I was a Hero believer. I believed in its potential. What the company could grow to be. If it were allowed to actually grow and evolve its products.

But I'm also not going to sit back and pretend everything is hunky-dory within the Hero community itself. Because it's not. They have run off virtually every dissenting voice in nearly every form of gaming media. The level of control that corrupt community of grognards exert has been downright Orwellian.

Showing truth to power has always been one of my biggest motivations. And I am fed up with being a whipping boy in places like TBP for having the nerve of simply having a contrary opinion to those in power. I'm sick of being punished for it.

When Pundit recruited me for this board years ago. I was skeptical. And I did not post for a long time. Because I had grown accustomed to being bullied, disregarded and generally abused. It took time for me to feel safe in posting here. To believe enough in the place to truly be apart of it.

Pundit knows where I came from. The chat known as #randomworlds on Magicstar.net. Which used to be the unofficial RPG.net chatroom. He was convincing enough to get me to register. Convincing enough for me to try. He met me there under one of my various identities. And that's where he gave me the invitation. In the mental state I was, that was truly miraculous that it got through to me.

Pundit likely doesn't remember that bit of kindness to someone who felt absolutely disenfranchised. But to me? It got me to try again.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 05:38:30 PM by Darrin Kelley »
 

Aglondir

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #113 on: August 09, 2020, 05:51:31 PM »
Quote from: RandyB;1143675
The hell of it is, Hero had good content - the Champions Universe. And then they sold it outright for quick cash. They retained tabletop RPG publishing rights, but creative control went with the sale. When that cash ran out, they stopped publishing and started managing what little IP they had left - the Hero System indicia.

The 5E Hero line has amazing content. And I say that as a 6E fan.

Edit: The CU is great. But I'm thinking about Hudson City, Urban Fantasy Hero, The Terran Empire, Pulp Hero, etc. Some of my favorite RPG books. Regardless what system they use, they have some great source material, sort of like Gurps in that regard.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 06:05:17 PM by Aglondir »

Toadmaster

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« Reply #114 on: August 10, 2020, 01:04:02 PM »
Quote from: shuddemell;1143931
For a dead system, one you should have written off decades ago, you still have rather strong feelings about something that is dead and gone. It gives off a slightly creepy, jilted stalker vibe.

Very much so.

As far as his harassment claims. Darren makes similar claims against anyone who disagrees with his posts so it is a low bar.


The idea that the Grognards won because 6th ed I find hilarious. 6th ed made significant changes unpopular with many long time players. It did make the game even more complex which was a wrong move, but it was not a win for the grognards.


For what it is worth, I kind of like Fuzion, but it wasn't ready for prime time when released. With more work it might have been a pretty good game.

RandyB

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #115 on: August 10, 2020, 01:23:55 PM »
Quote from: Toadmaster;1144088
Very much so.

As far as his harassment claims. Darren makes similar claims against anyone who disagrees with his posts so it is a low bar.


The idea that the Grognards won because 6th ed I find hilarious. 6th ed made significant changes unpopular with many long time players. It did make the game even more complex which was a wrong move, but it was not a win for the grognards.


For what it is worth, I kind of like Fuzion, but it wasn't ready for prime time when released. With more work it might have been a pretty good game.

The biggest problem with Fuzion was the marketing. It was presented as the replacement for two highly popular systems, and it was different enough from each that both player bases felt betrayed and abandoned.

As it's own thing, distinct from Hero and Interlock yet compatible with both, and with each of the other two kept alive and actively published? Fuzion might have stood a better chance in that scenario.

jhkim

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2020, 01:23:58 PM »
As for fans harassing people -- to whatever degree it happened, that sucks, but that's its own thing. It doesn't mean that their tastes are invalid. It's fine for people to like the HERO System as-is without change. I think it's nonsense to demand of fans "They should like new editions so they can be successful." The whole OSR, for example, is about liking old editions.

Quote from: RandyB;1144092
The biggest problem with Fuzion was the marketing. It was presented as the replacement for two highly popular systems, and it was different enough from each that both player bases felt betrayed and abandoned.

As it's own thing, distinct from Hero and Interlock yet compatible with both, and with each of the other two kept alive and actively published? Fuzion might have stood a better chance in that scenario.
In the RPG market, almost any new system - especially a new generic system - is likely to be a flop. A generic system has to be quite exceptional to be successful, and Fuzion was not a great design. While I agree the marketing was handled badly, I think trying to market it outside the existing HERO and Interlock fans would be even harder.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #117 on: November 27, 2020, 01:39:38 PM »
Finally got a chance to look through Champions Now and it's exactly how it's been described. There's a sample character whose disadvantages include this:

"Psychological Limitation: Stands up for marginalized person’s selfhood (often)"

She belongs to "a group of dedicated super-powered activists" who "concentrate on activism, organizing events, and outreach to grassroots community efforts."

Another character of this group is a "lily-white East Coast Ivy Leaguer" who "leverages that privilege against his own class and makes people like it."


It's hard to believe that a man in his late 50s wrote this.

Darrin Kelley

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Re: Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #118 on: November 27, 2020, 03:20:49 PM »
I have this book. I've read it several times. And it always leaves me wondering one thing.

Who in their right mind is going to run this or play this?

The only thing this has done is convince me that Icons is my future in superhero gaming. Not this.
 

Thor's Nads

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Re: Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #119 on: April 20, 2021, 10:34:02 PM »
I have this book. I've read it several times. And it always leaves me wondering one thing.

Who in their right mind is going to run this or play this?

The only thing this has done is convince me that Icons is my future in superhero gaming. Not this.

May I humbly suggest Guardians?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/172576/Guardians?src=hottest_filtered
Gen-Xtra