Here's the main problem:  The content of this theoretical source book has to be good.  Which is why I said that it would be the proper tactics to follow for their given strategy, but that I don't think the strategy will work even if they did use proper tactics.  People doing good content don't want to be tied down to something like the Hero System.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143674Here's the main problem:  The content of this theoretical source book has to be good.  Which is why I said that it would be the proper tactics to follow for their given strategy, but that I don't think the strategy will work even if they did use proper tactics.  People doing good content don't want to be tied down to something like the Hero System.

The hell of it is, Hero had good content - the Champions Universe. And then they sold it outright for quick cash. They retained tabletop RPG publishing rights, but creative control went with the sale. When that cash ran out, they stopped publishing and started managing what little IP they had left - the Hero System indicia.

Quote from: RandyB;1143675The hell of it is, Hero had good content - the Champions Universe. And then they sold it outright for quick cash. They retained tabletop RPG publishing rights, but creative control went with the sale. When that cash ran out, they stopped publishing and started managing what little IP they had left - the Hero System indicia.

They didn't just sell the setting. They sold the characters, the individual superhero IPs they had. All of it. Completely strip-mined Champions as an entity.

The Hero System itself proved itself to not be worth anything without the Champions IP.

The Hero System ran its course. It's done. Over. And the time to move on from it was decades ago.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143328They are not the same. Not even a little bit. The only way to buy different modes of movement is to reskin and modify Flight. Which is extremely clunky at best. You cannot improve movement in any other way.

Wat.

No super parkour, no web swinging, no super-speed, no teleportation, no tunnelling?

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143697Wat.

No super parkour, no web swinging, no super-speed, no teleportation, no tunnelling?

Yeah. Which was totally my reaction. Complete shock. How could they forget something so basic? It utterly dumbfounded me.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143688They didn't just sell the setting. They sold the characters, the individual superhero IPs they had. All of it. Completely strip-mined Champions as an entity.

The Hero System itself proved itself to not be worth anything without the Champions IP.

The Hero System ran its course. It's done. Over. And the time to move on from it was decades ago.

Fortunately, you don't get to make that decision. It's still alive and well at my table.

Quote from: shuddemell;1143776Fortunately, you don't get to make that decision. It's still alive and well at my table.

Being popular at someone table does not mean as a whole the Hero System is alive and well.

It's great that it's played at your table as despite my issues with the system it deserves to be played and run.

At the same time I can say Rifts is still popular and profitable just because I was in a recent short lived campaign on Discord.

Subjectively and how a gamer feels the system is not dead. Objectively and what we can see with Hero Games  relying solely on 3PP it's not dead it's pretty close and on life support.

Do I want it to thrive and survive sure. Hero Games and the Hero Grognords have done their damn best to make sure it's not imo.

Your gone need to tell us more "well it's alive at my table!" to convince me and others as looking at it objectively Hero System has one foot in the grave.

Quote from: sureshot;1143792Do I want it to thrive and survive sure. Hero Games and the Hero Grognords have done their damn best to make sure it's not imo.

Your gone need to tell us more "well it's alive at my table!" to convince me and others as looking at it objectively Hero System has one foot in the grave.

   The dilemma is this: Can the HERO System both "thrive and survive" and remain recognizably the HERO System? A lot of the changes proposed, both here and elsewhere, wind up being so radical that the game would be about as close to vintage HERO as 5E is to the OSR--you can recognize the lines of descent, but the differences are strong enough that people can legitimately argue that they're not the same game any more.

   Now, that may be what's necessary for a game to be successful in today's market. But it also means you'd alienate most, if not all, of the vintage fans--and with no guarantee of attracting new ones to replace them. Again, that kind of gamble may be necessary for commercial success, but why should fans of the system as it is care about it? I'm not saying that DOJ (or what's left of them) shouldn't do it--I'd actually like a lighter, more streamlined HERO that retains the underlying coherence, flexibility and definition. But I am saying that if that's the direction you're going, you're probably not going to get much more than generic good wishes from many old-time fans at best.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1143798The dilemma is this: Can the HERO System both "thrive and survive" and remain recognizably the HERO System? A lot of the changes proposed, both here and elsewhere, wind up being so radical that the game would be about as close to vintage HERO as 5E is to the OSR--you can recognize the lines of descent, but the differences are strong enough that people can legitimately argue that they're not the same game any more.

Keeping the status quo and not changing anything while also catering just to the Hero System Grognards has not done the company or the Hero system any favors imo. The status quo was kept up until 6E with the result being that the company has one foot in the grave and on life support. With the Hero System not as popular and being replace with Savage Worlds. It is a versatile toolkit of a system that one can use to pretty much writing up anything seen in movies, comicx, TV etc. Except many gamers don't want that kind of system anymore to the point by voting with their wallets and moving on.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1143798Noww, that may be what's necessary for a game to be successful in today's market. But it also means you'd alienate most, if not all, of the vintage fans--and with no guarantee of attracting new ones to replace them. Again, that kind of gamble may be necessary for commercial success, but why should fans of the system as it is care about it? I'm not saying that DOJ (or what's left of them) shouldn't do it, but I am saying that if that's the direction you're going, you're probably not going to get much more than generic good wishes from old-time fans at best.

Given how many Hero System Grognards at least in my experience and from what I have seen on forums hate changing the system they would alienate themselves anyway. One can't hold back trying to save ones company because the grognards are afraid of change yet at the same time want to keep the status quo and see a miraculous recovery of the Hero System...any day just any day now. It's a selfish thing to say yet to save the infected limb one must remove the infected gangrene part. Either way the grognards have made it clear for the most part they won't buy a less complex and rules crunchy and I see no need for Hero Games to be held hostage by them.

I get your point yet unless something new and different and dare I say it a new less rules complex and crunchy system I don't see the rot spreading I see it getting worse until either they keep limping along until they go out of business while being bought out by someone who will like it or not release a more simplified set of rules. It's a risk yet they have to try something new it's just 6E with better layout and old rules the grognards will call it a money grab and gamers like me will then claim it's not different enough.

This is, of course, granting the assumption that the company wants or needs saving. If they want to get out of maintenance mode, then yes, a major shift somewhere--whether in system or in the broader market--is almost certainly necessary. But it may be that the people in charge have enough other lines of business (the owners of Hero also own IPR, after all) that they don't see the need, or they don't think the chance of success is worth the gamble. Given how 5E seems to be achieving an almost suffocating domination of the new market, they may be right about the latter.

Quote from: sureshot;1143792Being popular at someone table does not mean as a whole the Hero System is alive and well.

It's great that it's played at your table as despite my issues with the system it deserves to be played and run.

At the same time I can say Rifts is still popular and profitable just because I was in a recent short lived campaign on Discord.

Subjectively and how a gamer feels the system is not dead. Objectively and what we can see with Hero Games  relying solely on 3PP it's not dead it's pretty close and on life support.

Do I want it to thrive and survive sure. Hero Games and the Hero Grognords have done their damn best to make sure it's not imo.

Your gone need to tell us more "well it's alive at my table!" to convince me and others as looking at it objectively Hero System has one foot in the grave.

I don't mean it is being economically successful, I was replying to the idea that it's time to move on. Why? Seems like this forum is definitely NOT about moving on, after all people are still reviving a game that is 46 years old. It's kind of interesting that there are a core group of fans still playing the same Hero they've been playing for years, and yet they get blamed for its supposed failure. Because they are happy with it the way it is? Change for change's sake is pointless. If anything, Hero made such a solid system that for the most part those that used it regularly were happy enough with what it offered that they didn't see a need for massive changes. That Hero still survives, to change it in a way that reflects current sensibilities about gaming would guarantee it isn't the Hero the grognards love. Based on that alone, I would say it's as alive as it's going to get. If by alive and well, you mean commercially sucessful... well obviously not. Then again some of the systems that are commercially successful are trash in my opinion... I feel that way about Savage Worlds. There's a system for everyone, but no system will please everyone.

But that's the problem. 5th Edition and beyond were marketed solely at the grognards who didn't want any change. And that's proven to be an abject failure by the state of the company today.

The Hero System is not selling because the system is too complex. That complexity drives off the more casual gamer and convinces them that the game is not for them. Before they even open the cover of the books. Which is a catastrophe for any company hoping their products will be successful.

You can't market to the grognards. Because they already have the version of the game they want. They aren't interested in buying new products. So catering to them is company suicide.

4th edition was the tipping point for many fans. The tipping point toward complexity started there. And only got worse as more products without editorial oversight came out.

The only thing I agree with Ron Edwards on was that third edition was an end of an era. One where Champions was still relatively accessible and user-friendly.

I also stick with the opinion, that the efforts that started Fuzion were steps in the right direction. But sadly with the constant complaining and push back from the grognard set that was even working for the company, Fuzion didn't really get a chance to truly succeed because it was sabotaged internally.

Fuzion succeeded as well as it did because of the fans. Not because of the companies that started it. All credit should go to the fan creators who took that bare skeleton of a system and made good things with it. They are the ones who truly deserve the credit.

The original notes I sent to Steve Peterson that resulted in the birth of Fuzion was a complete system analysis and set of suggestions for starting anew. That original advice I still hold as being as valid as it was when I first submitted it. It was a beginning. And that beginning could still eventually produce something useful. If it were allowed to.

Champions Now I had hope for when I dropped my $35 for it. That maybe it could have been something finally after so many years that could have put Hero Games in a new direction. But sadly, I was disappointed by an objectively bad product. Another "could have been", instead of a product that could be taken seriously.

But right now? The game looking to best serve the ostracized audience that once surrounded the Hero System is actually ICONS. A game that is simple, direct, and contains no exploitable mathematical acrobatics that complicates and create exploits within the game. It just does what it does.

So I went from being one of the Hero faithful to seeing the system be superseded by the rising competition. The competition that rose from the same frustrations with Hero that I have and continue to express.

The Hero System is gone. It's not selling anymore. And it's not coming back. Nor does it have a legacy that would sell products anymore. It is just done.

The grognards won. The Hero System is no longer a viable saleable product anymore.

It's pretty obvious that you stick with the opinion that if only they had followed your direction it would be a great success. I've seen you espouse that position on numerous occasions. Perhaps you could be right that, if they had changed tack they would have gained a new audience, and of course, lost the old one. For a dead system, one you should have written off decades ago, you still have rather strong feelings about something that is dead and gone. It gives off a slightly creepy, jilted stalker vibe. Obviously, Peterson felt selling the property his best bet, rather than your proffered advice. I don't know if that is because he wanted out, didn't agree with your direction, felt it was best to cut and run, et al. I personally thought that, at least as it was presented, Fuzion didn't add any value to Hero. I think that was a lot of people's opinions at the time, though that could be purely because it was released as a half-baked melange of two systems, rather than a unified system taking good ideas from it's predecessors. I wonder too, if there really is an ostracized audience or if indeed, the players got what they wanted from the system and didn't see a need to change it. Is it perfect?, hardly, but what it does do well, it does exceedingly well, and myself and a number of others are happy with what they have. Personally, I can't see anything that you've argued changing making the system better, just more to your liking. I also don't think there is a way to retain the level of detail I and other grognards like me prefer without having a robust, and by some standards complicated, system to manage it. I have yet to play a more flexible, and detailed system, but it isn't going to get simpler and retain that detail and also remain even remotely the same "dead" system we have spent the past few decades "wasting" our time on, and at this point I don't think that it is a matter of winning or losing. Some of us will be happy with what we have and what we can create with it, and some of us will continually moan about what might have been.

One other thing is the idea that grognards don't buy new products. That is patently false, I spend more on this hobby than ever before as do most of my crusty, old friends, I always give new versions a chance, but you have to produce something BETTER not just different for it to be of value imo.

I too buy new stuff and consider myself a grognard though I gave myself the term of enlightened grognard. In that whether I like it or not sometimes rpgs need to grow and adapt to continue to thrive and survive while also leaving the grognards that hold them hostage behind. One keeps the status quo when one rpg company is profitable and thriving not when it is one foot in the grave. Hero fans especially the groganrds of the system leave in fantasy world of their own making where everything is well and good, nothing needs to be changed and a miraclious (only in their minds) recovery is around the corner any day...any day.

Grognards who buy new material are the exception not the norm it's why the term in rpg was created. Playing only one truwayism of a version of rpg and everything else is crap. Not all of course yet gamers also tend to be nortriously cheap expecting to get tommorow rpgs now at yesterdays prices.

Yes a completely new set of rules may make things worse yet keeping the status quo is just doing nothing for a dying company and system. Why not try something new even if it maybe the company and system last hurrah. I go to other forums and people like to complain and whine about how they cannot find new players for Hero System and regular Rifts yet in the same breath want nothing to change. One can't have it both ways complain about a lack of interest in rpg XYZ then also want no changes to the rpg.

I know Savage Rifts gets a lot of crap on these forums yet it brought gamers back into playing Rifts witha renewed interest though only Savage Rifts. With new products on the way. Palladium Books pollutes my email feed with them constantly shilling new PDFs sales instead of sending updates about new product.

The problem with a new editions is that it's a catch-22 sometimes one has to give new product yet also make it different enough that it's not a rehash. While also making it similar than the previous version.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143837I also stick with the opinion, that the efforts that started Fuzion were steps in the right direction. But sadly with the constant complaining and push back from the grognard set that was even working for the company, Fuzion didn't really get a chance to truly succeed because it was sabotaged internally.

Constant complaining by grognards can't cause a game to fail. Otherwise, third edition D&D would have been a disaster. D&D 3e didn't succeed by convincing 2e players to switch, it succeeded by attracting huge number of people that weren't currently playing D&D. That game had two advantages: firstly it was a well designed, playtested game and, secondly, the game it replaced (AD&D) was a bloated, clunky mess. For Champions, you had the exact opposite situation. A well liked version (4e) was replaced by a clunky mess of a new game.

IOW, Champion New Millennium didn't fail because of the Champions grognards as those people weren't even the game's target audience.