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Author Topic: Ron Edward's Champions Now  (Read 17937 times)

Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2020, 01:32:45 PM »
I managed the find the Fuzion Plug-In that I had edited. That had been put up on the Hero Games Website in 1998.

Hero Games was having problems with their hosting. And it was not properly saved at archive.org. But I managed to find a copy of it in PDF that had been saved to a geocities account. And got a copy of it.

Since it was my first published work. I wanted it for sentimental reasons.
 

Abraxus

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« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2020, 02:10:46 PM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1124393
In Bold is the reality some have obviously been unwilling to accept.

Do these new RPG systems do the same thing/are as "modular" as Hero/Champions? No.

But what they don't get is: That it doesn't matter!

Close enough is good enough in 99 out of 100 cases. Hell, D&D has more or less maintained its market leader status on the "good enough" principle.

Underestimating the power of close/good enough has been the downfall of many a more complex RPG vs. its upstart competitors...

Agreed and seconded.

For example for many tables imo Mutants and Masterminds has pretty much replaced Champions as their superhero rpg of choice. Champions has a much more fleshed out background yet many are willing to overlook that for M&M being less crunchy and rules complex. I personally don't like M&M damage save beyond that and Champions mopre extensive background I just cannot see myself getting back into Champions or many a Hero System campaign. too much work for little gain both as a player and GM. Even on RollD2o one cannot find new games (Gurps is better in that regard).

Again not surprised when a company targets a very small segment of their fans and refuses to try anything new to get gamers into the Hero System.

Even with champions now why not do an updated 4E as opposed to 3E. With 4E which imo seemed and seems to be more popular then 3E by a long shot why not do a Champions Now version of 4E by someone else. It just seems kike they tried for the nostalgia factor on edition that they seemed to think was really popular. Then again it's Hero games who take every opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2020, 03:14:36 PM »
The problem with all of the major Fuzion power plug-ins was this: The authors tried to re-engineer the Hero System into Fuzion. Rather than making a power system that was original to Fuzion itself.

The problem with bringing Hero System methodology to Fuzion was: That they brought all of the same bad design issues over with it. All the same old inconsistencies. Which sort of defeated the point of designing a new game system in the first place.

Someone earlier in the thread proposed above a new edition of Fuzion. And honestly? That's something I don't oppose. But I believe that it would need to be approached without outside influences. That it would need to have systems that are original designs. And consistent within Fuzion itself. Meaning that all of the Hero System specific artifacts would need to be abandoned.

Can Fuzion be saved and upgraded? Yes. I truly believe it can be.

Back when I originally proposed the notes that led to the birth of Fuzion. I was operating from a very particular standpoint and view. That the Hero System had run its course. That there needed to be a successor. A new beginning. And I still believe that.

What we got with the first edition of Champions: New Millenium didn't go far enough to differentiate itself. And Champions: New Millenium 2nd Edition took a further step back from that needed development.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 03:25:58 PM by Darrin Kelley »
 

Omega

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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2020, 03:08:25 AM »
Bemusingly, or not so bemusingly. I unknowingly picked up 2 of his books in a discount pack.

One is Slay With Me. Which is near pure storytelling. Dice rolling seems an afterthought. And actually forget what the other one was.

Armchair Gamer

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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2020, 08:28:24 AM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1126741
The problem with bringing Hero System methodology to Fuzion was: That they brought all of the same bad design issues over with it. All the same old inconsistencies. Which sort of defeated the point of designing a new game system in the first place.

Someone earlier in the thread proposed above a new edition of Fuzion. And honestly? That's something I don't oppose. But I believe that it would need to be approached without outside influences. That it would need to have systems that are original designs. And consistent within Fuzion itself. Meaning that all of the Hero System specific artifacts would need to be abandoned.

Can Fuzion be saved and upgraded? Yes. I truly believe it can be.

Back when I originally proposed the notes that led to the birth of Fuzion. I was operating from a very particular standpoint and view. That the Hero System had run its course. That there needed to be a successor. A new beginning. And I still believe that.

   This does raise the question of 'what do you need the Hero System or Hero Games for, especially with Fuzion under an open license?' You may be right about the commercial viability or design limits of the Hero System, but if you think starting over is necessary, I don't see how leaving the old stuff to the dwindling satisfied fanbase is a problem.

DeadUematsu

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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2020, 11:13:07 AM »
IME, largely no one wants to run Hero System and those who do find the meager player base unwilling to play anything inconvenient (e.g. having standards, not being at exactly the right time for their schedule, not the genre they want, etc.). I have largely given up advertising my HS game and the other HS GM I frequently chat with couldn't find anyone for his comedic super villain game. Combined with the fact that I can literally have my choice of M&M players even with 3E on the doldrums, it's really hard to be supportive of anything Hero System related nowadays.
 

VisionStorm

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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2020, 03:18:27 PM »
I sometimes reference Champions/Hero System (5e hard copy or Champions Complete PDF--6e, I believe) when researching effects for my own system, but I've never played the game and I don't have an interest on new manuals for most of the reasons mentioned by many here (and fact that the books I already own cover my purposes for the game). I find the system to be more complicated than it needs to be for what it tries to do and I don't really like the core system (stats, task resolution, phased combat rules, etc), beyond the effects component.

I also find the manuals wordy and hard to follow (though, I've adapted over the years), with excessive use of hard to remember acronyms for stats and abilities that use multi-word phrases like "Offensive+Combat+Value" (OCV) or "Defensive+Combat+Value" (DCV) when single words will do (Combat or Defense). Now I have to remember literally dozens of acronyms, like I'm on the freaking military cuz the game designers can't come up with ability names that are less than 3+ words long, yet can't be bothered to write those names in full for 90% of the manual, even when dealing with obscure Power Modifiers, "adders" or whatever they're called.

If I wanted to play an existing effect-based system I would just go with Mutants & Masterminds (which is already close to my ideal, except for some stuff I would've done differently or don't like about d20 System's 3e) or a modified version of the old Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) RPG to allow for random damage.

Aglondir

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« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2020, 12:50:50 AM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1126741
Someone earlier in the thread proposed above a new edition of Fuzion. And honestly? That's something I don't oppose. But I believe that it would need to be approached without outside influences. That it would need to have systems that are original designs. And consistent within Fuzion itself. Meaning that all of the Hero System specific artifacts would need to be abandoned.
That was me. I was going to start a thread on the subject, and I started some initial work on a Fuzion revision, but got distracted by something else.

Not all of the Hero influence needs to be abandoned, and frankly some of the Interlock influence could go. Yes, a new power system is needed. The 1998 "black and yellow cover" edition scrapped the Hero approach and included a bare-bones Powers system (which I think came from Dream Park) but it too left a lot to be desired.

My motivation is probably different than yours. I like Hero 6E and play in a weekly game. Even back in 98, I never saw Fuzion as replacing Hero, but a different game that I played for different reasons. I enjoy/ed both Fuzion and Hero, and if I revise the game it would be with that positivity in mind.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 12:54:18 AM by Aglondir »

Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2020, 05:52:05 PM »
Quote from: Aglondir;1126886
That was me. I was going to start a thread on the subject, and I started some initial work on a Fuzion revision, but got distracted by something else.

Not all of the Hero influence needs to be abandoned, and frankly some of the Interlock influence could go. Yes, a new power system is needed. The 1998 "black and yellow cover" edition scrapped the Hero approach and included a bare-bones Powers system (which I think came from Dream Park) but it too left a lot to be desired.

My motivation is probably different than yours. I like Hero 6E and play in a weekly game. Even back in 98, I never saw Fuzion as replacing Hero, but a different game that I played for different reasons. I enjoy/ed both Fuzion and Hero, and if I revise the game it would be with that positivity in mind.

Mine has always been this: That Fuzion needs its own identity to stand out. It's own unique approaches. Otherwise? What's the point?
 

remial

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« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2020, 08:50:03 PM »
I can't remember, was it Ron Edwards or Luke Crane who said that people who like playing D&D are brain damaged?

Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2020, 05:35:54 AM »
Quote from: remial;1127690
I can't remember, was it Ron Edwards or Luke Crane who said that people who like playing D&D are brain damaged?

I think that's an overly simplistic view. As would be calling D&D a simulator of thieving and racist murder. It's not telling the whole story. Not even remotely.

The true goal of D&D was to simulate heroic fantasy.  With heavy inspiration by popular fantasy novels. It was far beyond just killing different races and creatures and taking their stuff. Yes, the game could be played that way. And many do. But it is not the base premise that fantasy RPGs were based on.

I know the basic premise because I read books designed by the fathers of the hobby to act as an introduction to the hobby for those who were complete outsiders. They were very clear and quite meticulous in detailing their intentions were for applying what they designed. And, yes, I still own those books.

D&D can clearly be misused. Pushed beyond the scope of what its creators intended. Just like any other RPG can be. just like anything else can be used to do things beyond its original intention.
 

S'mon

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« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2020, 06:50:26 AM »
Quote from: remial;1127690
I can't remember, was it Ron Edwards or Luke Crane who said that people who like playing D&D are brain damaged?

Edwards said playing 1990s style railroads caused brain damage. That would apply to Dragonlance and Vecna Lives!, and presumably to Pathfinder APs, but not to old school D&D sandbox games.

ArrozConLeche

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« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2020, 09:31:53 AM »
Quote from: S'mon;1127744
Edwards said playing 1990s style railroads caused brain damage. That would apply to Dragonlance and Vecna Lives!, and presumably to Pathfinder APs, but not to old school D&D sandbox games.

Interesting that he was replying to a quote that mentions Vampire and "a number of other offspring of a particular application of champions". Edit: He does say he thinks the WHite Wolf stuff was the worst perpetrator, if not the first.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=18707.0

A page later, he writes this in one long response:

Quote

5. Early role-playing history includes a vast diversity of play-approaches and game design. Commercially, it was canalized toward specific forms of Gamist play in the late 1970s, and that effect had a big impact on role-players of approximately my age (41), and a little younger. However, especially if we (this age group) didn't participate in role-playing much between the late 1980s and late 1990s, it's hard for us to understand what happened to the new wave-fronts. The commercial canalization was absolutely overwhelming, dropping the diversity of published game design to practically none. Gamist play and its troublesome relationship with other agendas is simply not the issue that drove the values-issues in role-playing culture during that time. Yes, it's hard to buy that, because to us, "good role-playing" was predicated on nothing but how one dealt with Gamist play (yes, no, how much, in what way, etc).

Instead, starting with the college crowd in the late 1980s, hitting the next wave of high-schoolers in the early 1990s, and peaking in the middle-late 1990s, the primary issue was as I've described above, this whole "story" thing, and again, dividing and re-coalescing and agonizing over (as I say above) "just say it, the dice don't matter," vs. gutting it out with the dice and saying it anyway. Both of which ultimately rely on Force for anything resembling story to emerge.

In many ways, the older bunch, especially a specific subset of RuneQuest and Champions players, understand how stories can emerge through actual decisions and actions during play better than the younger bunch. Not that it was common back then, but at least it was a matter of groping in the dark rather than gouging out one's eyes as a starting point. (Hey, John Kim, I think this is where you and I, for all our disagreements, do connect and recognize one another.)


Bold emphasis mine. This sounds a lot closer to what oldsters say about "story" round these parts than it does to any theory I've seen in storygamer circles. I noticed the absence of D&D in the quote, but I don't think it's necessarily meaningful (though it might be, who knows).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 09:38:32 AM by ArrozConLeche »

S'mon

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« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2020, 12:03:53 PM »
Edwards does not understand OSR DnD because he does not understand immersion as a goal, and does not understand how simulation and gamism are mutually supportive. But he has not accused it of damaging brains.

Steven Mitchell

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« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2020, 12:10:31 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;1127767
Edwards does not understand OSR DnD because he does not understand immersion as a goal, and does not understand how simulation and gamism are mutually supportive. But he has not accused it of damaging brains.

Yeah.  The whole game/simulation/narrative trifecta has its problems, but also has some positive discussion angles.  At least it does as long as you ignore the whole Forge/Edwards "thought" that they are essentially mutually exclusive.  That's got to be one of the dumbest, ivory tower statements about game design, ever.