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Author Topic: Ron Edward's Champions Now  (Read 17944 times)

Abraxus

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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2020, 07:08:19 AM »
Quote from: thomden;1123986
I liked the original Champions quite well, though we abandoned it when MSH came out.

With my old gaming group it was MSH first then Champions

Quote from: thomden;1123986
One of the worst gaming sessions I've ever had in my life was playing Champions 4th edition with some grognards. Humorless, system obsessed, and they were engineers so delighted in all the number crunching.

To be fair that can happen with any rpg. I was unlucky enough to come across and play with some 3.5 and Pathfinder player more interested in making the best powerful character then complaining when the game has scenes without combat because they dump stated Charisma and took no social skills. While not blaming themselves for poor character creation and development instead blaming the DM and players.

Lynn

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« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2020, 12:09:09 PM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123765
The reason for it replacing Hero? Simple. Something more userfriendly. Something still built in the spirit of the Hero System. And one that still delivered on the original premises. But got rid of all of negatives that had built up. Simple product evolution.


I can see how that would be a tall order. As I said previously, I don't really find Hero 5th Edition not user friendly, and the revised book is such a wonderfully complete kit. But it is still a massive tome.


Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123765
A complete product. For one. One that actually delivered on all of the Hero System's promises. Without the unnecessarily complicated bits. But as I said above. Fuzion wasn't that because it was an incomplete effort. It didn't succeed because it couldn't. It wasn't allowed to even come close because the toxic part of the fanbase that has now succeeded in driving everybody else away but themselves.


That's interesting - thanks for the background info!

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123765
Champions Now is a chance at a new start. A chance at gaining a new audience. If the company can finally be brave enough to show the grognards the door. And never look back.


Grognards or not, I just don't see it changing their situation that much. They seem to be living on fumes and producing almost nothing. Hero Games has gone the route of trying to sell everything they've ever made as PDFs in a way that jumbles both system and content. I think that's a model that will only work for a few, select publishers (resellers like DrivethruRPG being different beasts).
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Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2020, 10:31:48 PM »
Quote from: Lynn;1124008
I can see how that would be a tall order. As I said previously, I don't really find Hero 5th Edition not user friendly, and the revised book is such a wonderfully complete kit. But it is still a massive tome.

The original owners didn't want anything close to that massive tome. This is why they originally rejected the 5th Edition manuscript Steve Long submitted, They wanted something relatively compact and user-friendly. And they got a significant amount of feedback indicating that the size of the 4th Edition rulebook was a bridge too far.

Quote
Grognards or not, I just don't see it changing their situation that much. They seem to be living on fumes and producing almost nothing. Hero Games has gone the route of trying to sell everything they've ever made as PDFs in a way that jumbles both system and content. I think that's a model that will only work for a few, select publishers (resellers like DrivethruRPG being different beasts).

And it's not working for them. Champions Now is the one last shot in the dark for them. But even it may be too late. Because games have sprung up to fill the role Hero once had a lock on. It's going to have to be something really special to breathe life back into the property.
 

Lynn

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« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2020, 02:22:59 AM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1124054
The original owners didn't want anything close to that massive tome. This is why they originally rejected the 5th Edition manuscript Steve Long submitted, They wanted something relatively compact and user-friendly. And they got a significant amount of feedback indicating that the size of the 4th Edition rulebook was a bridge too far. Champions Now is the one last shot in the dark for them. But even it may be too late. Because games have sprung up to fill the role Hero once had a lock on. It's going to have to be something really special to breathe life back into the property.

I can see the attraction. I bought the 1st edition at one of the early Dundracons in '81 I think and it was pretty much overshadowing everything else at the show. It packed a lot of fun into a svelte booklet.
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Abraxus

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« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2020, 07:09:54 AM »
Another issue with Hero Games is their stupidly stubborn insistence on pleasing the HS grognards and no one else. Already with 5E many were turned away from the massive tome so instead of changing that they doubled down with two similarly sized tomes with 6E. As soon as I saw that it was like watching  a train crash in action. With no major changes at least nothing to draw in fans who left for other simpler systems. Both SJGames and Hero Games instead of admitting to the flaws of their respective rpgs decided that somehow making a better looking book with full color art was what the fanbase only wanted. Many of us wanted better production values and art yet also making the system easier. In the case of HG making the core out of print and taking years to put it on Drivethurpg pretty much killed any momentum they had with the new edition. No new releases, older 6e books went out of print and only available through PDF , Hero 6E vol 1 being out of print and Vol 2 in print again for years. To me it was lesson on how not to run a business.

Not to mention this weird idea from the fanbase that Hero Games would not be re-releasing previous 5E sourcebooks. From what i have seen over the years in the hobby. almost every rpg when a new edition is released does the same. Why would anyone think that HG would be different. Especially that they never made such a claim. After all let's release a new edition of the Hero System yet not release say a new Champions or Viper sourcebook. If it is true what is being said about the previous owners and not wanting the massive tome going forward I don't blame them as they probably saw the writing on the wall and wisely sold their IP.

Armchair Gamer

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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2020, 11:02:55 AM »
I think it's only fair to note that the 5E that was published was, I believe, Long's rejected manuscript, and it was the foundation of a line that was successful for several years. It may not have had the longevity a properly implemented Fuzion would have had--the company was in trouble even before 6E slowed down production and drove a wedge into the fanbase--but it wasn't self-evidently a doomed endeavor from the beginning.

That said, I liked 5E more for the source material, and am sympathetic to the Fuzion goals of a system with most of Hero's core concepts and flexibility but without so much overhead. I especially like the concepts of Dials and Switches, to be able to tweak a core rules system to reflect a genre or milieu. What are the best Fuzion products or resources  out there for someone who'd be willing to hack and tweak something together that might have reached its potential, even if only for hobbyist tinkering or personal use?

Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2020, 01:38:59 PM »
That's the thing. Fuzion reached its potential because of its community of fans. Who made a whole host of plug-ins for it. Some of them have become products on their own that you can buy as universal plug-ins at Precis Intermedia. Pay close attention to the Atomik line. They were originally well regarded Fuzion plug-ins.

Also. Hero Games eventually put out a truly official superpowers plug-in that wasn't derived from the Hero System. (Which I happen to have an editorial credit for.) It was reasonably popular during the Cybergames era. And it was simply free on their website.

Where Fuzion was a failed effort on the part of the companies that produced it. It was the fans who made it a viable and vibrant product. One that went on to produce products for several small independent companies. Like Dilly Green Beans Games.

So no. Fuzion wasn't the bastard child of Hero Games. It was truly a child of its community. One that went on to inspire many of the games in popularity today.

You wouldn't see Savage Worlds at all without Fuzion. You wouldn't have seen the Action! System without Fuzion. You wouldn't see a lot of games out there. And I believe Fuzion gets an unfair rap from the Hero System grognards. While they continually try to trowel over the positive legacy Fuzion brought to the gaming community.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 01:41:47 PM by Darrin Kelley »
 

Armchair Gamer

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« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2020, 02:31:55 PM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1124244
That's the thing. Fuzion reached its potential because of its community of fans. Who made a whole host of plug-ins for it. Some of them have become products on their own that you can buy as universal plug-ins at Precis Intermedia. Pay close attention to the Atomik line. They were originally well regarded Fuzion plug-ins.  

   So I've heard; thanks for the confirmation.

Quote
You wouldn't see Savage Worlds at all without Fuzion. You wouldn't have seen the Action! System without Fuzion. You wouldn't see a lot of games out there.
  I'm aware of the Fuzion -> Action! lineage, but where does Savage Worlds fit in? The only link I was aware of was Sean Patrick Fannon.

Quote
And I believe Fuzion gets an unfair rap from the Hero System grognards. While they continually try to trowel over the positive legacy Fuzion brought to the gaming community.

  Perhaps a distinction needs to be made between Fuzion as a system, and Champions: The New Millennium as a product, the latter of which was apparently both poorly executed and launched at almost exactly the wrong time? Because I was on the Champions mailing list just before it came out, and while I don't recall the details of the reaction, I do know that there was a lot of anticipation for a 'proper' Champions 5E that was not met by C:tNM?

Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2020, 03:19:24 PM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1124248
I'm aware of the Fuzion -> Action! lineage, but where does Savage Worlds fit in? The only link I was aware of was Sean Patrick Fannon.

Savage Worlds was another part of the wave of games that arose as a reaction to Fuzion. Yes, Sean Fannon was a part of it. But it had roots that went further back into the Fuzion community.



Quote
Perhaps a distinction needs to be made between Fuzion as a system, and Champions: The New Millennium as a product, the latter of which was apparently both poorly executed and launched at almost exactly the wrong time? Because I was on the Champions mailing list just before it came out, and while I don't recall the details of the reaction, I do know that there was a lot of anticipation for a 'proper' Champions 5E that was not met by C:tNM?

I was a member of that mailing list too. But I was also a member of the Fuzion mailing list. So I got to see a lot of broader community action and reaction.

Champions: New Millenium was a bad product because it tried to stuff the Hero System into the Fuzion wrapper. When Fuzion needed to establish an identity of its own. Separate from the Hero System way of doing things. And when that happened, you got products like Dilly Green Beans Games Guardian Universe RPG. That was just a better approach and presentation all around.

Yes, Champions: New Millenium was outdone in nearly every way by a tiny publisher that took the necessary time to let Fuzion be Fuzion.

The Hero System Grognards want to wipe all memory of Fuzion and the success it had from history. They refuse to see the good that came about because of Fuzion's existance. And frankly, I just believe it is pure bitterness.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 03:22:12 PM by Darrin Kelley »
 

Aglondir

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« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2020, 03:40:24 PM »
I don't want Champions Now, I want Fuzion Now.

A Fuzion revival. But nothing by Edwards, and not Action or Dilly Green Beans, either. A new edition of the system. When was the last version, 1998?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 03:46:22 PM by Aglondir »

Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2020, 04:25:17 PM »
Quote from: Aglondir;1124260
I don't want Champions Now, I want Fuzion Now.

A Fuzion revival. But nothing by Edwards, and not Action or Dilly Green Beans, either. A new edition of the system. When was the last version, 1998?

Honestly? That's an interesting prospect. The last Fuzion game I know of that was published was Cyberpunk 3rd edition. That would be the most current iteration of the Fuzion rules.

The core Fuzion book is still being sold by R. Talsorian Games. And honestly? I've wanted to pick up a copy just for the memories. It's not expensive.
 

Aglondir

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« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2020, 10:18:46 PM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1124268
Honestly? That's an interesting prospect. The last Fuzion game I know of that was published was Cyberpunk 3rd edition. That would be the most current iteration of the Fuzion rules.

What changes did they make to Fuzion in CP v3?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 10:47:40 PM by Aglondir »

Darrin Kelley

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« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2020, 11:11:02 PM »
Quote from: Aglondir;1124291
What changes did they make to Fuzion in CP v3?

I'm not sure. I don't own a copy. I just know that was the last published Fuzion game.
 

Jaeger

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« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2020, 06:42:39 PM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1124054
...
And it's not working for them. Champions Now is the one last shot in the dark for them. But even it may be too late. Because games have sprung up to fill the role Hero once had a lock on. It's going to have to be something really special to breathe life back into the property.


In Bold is the reality some have obviously been unwilling to accept.

Do these new RPG systems do the same thing/are as "modular" as Hero/Champions? No.

But what they don't get is: That it doesn't matter!

Close enough is good enough in 99 out of 100 cases. Hell, D&D has more or less maintained its market leader status on the "good enough" principle.

Underestimating the power of close/good enough has been the downfall of many a more complex RPG vs. its upstart competitors...


Quote from: sureshot;1124080
Another issue with Hero Games is their stupidly stubborn insistence on pleasing the HS grognards and no one else. ...


Well, if HG is now being run by 'grognards' itself...

Quote from: sureshot;1124080

Both SJGames and Hero Games instead of admitting to the flaws of their respective rpgs decided that somehow making a better looking book with full color art was what the fanbase only wanted. Many of us wanted better production values and art yet also making the system easier. ....


Part of the problem is that both SJG and Hero games are run by people who see nothing wrong with their respective game systems as they are.

You can see this effect with the new edition of runequest. Usable by RQ fans who have been running the system for decades. But the rulebook is a confused mess to anyone coming in to it cold.

Of course it is still tied to Gorlantha, so it will forever be a niche rpg no matter what else they do.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 06:45:15 PM by Jaeger »
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Abraxus

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« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2020, 07:03:23 AM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1124393
Well, if HG is now being run by 'grognards' itself...

I am not too sure about that myself. Yet even if the company is at least try to understand the reality of the situation HG and the Hero System finds itself in. The first on life support the second a generic system not many in the hobby want to play anymore or at least not enough numbers for the current version to be profitable imo. I cannot feel and sympathy for the current owners or the fans that want nothing to change at the state of both.

Quote from: Jaeger;1124393
Part of the problem is that both SJG and Hero games are run by people who see nothing wrong with their respective game systems as they are.

You can see this effect with the new edition of runequest. Usable by RQ fans who have been running the system for decades. But the rulebook is a confused mess to anyone coming in to it cold.

Of course it is still tied to Gorlantha, so it will forever be a niche rpg no matter what else they do.

That is another company  and fnabase like Hero Games who expect a miraculous turnaround of their rpg while wanting nothing to change. At this point it's one thing not to change the rules it's another for the book to still be poorly organized. It's like Rifts Ultimate Edition great for someone like myself or another familiar to Palladium rpgs a mess to those wanting to learn the rules and getting into the hobby. Hey another example is the DArk Eye every couple of yeara a new edition trys to gain market share in North america and goes nowhere because again every edition aimed only at the Grognards and those wanting nothing to change. Which makes the rpg hardly make a dent in the sales at least in North America. Even before the D20 system came out I found it just complexity for the sake of complexity.

The funny thing is then on Facebook groups for Rifts someone posts a topic complaining that no stores want to carry PB products in his area, gets told why then gets angry. At those daring to point out that changes needs to made to the rules and how Kevin runs his business. While once again making sure to tell everyone nothing needs to change. It's almost the same with every similar thread. " Why can't find a store  who carries or players to run Rifts"