OK, so in Educational Roleplaying thread, some people were bringing up the idea of role-playing as psychological therapy.  That seems like unrelated baggage to the topic of education, so I'm making a separate thread on it.  

It seems to me that a lot of what people are objecting to as "mixing" of psychological role-playing and casual role-playing is really a problem with therapy itself.  i.e. It's not like role-playing skull-fucking the corpse of a cabin-boy would seem any better if it were done by a professional psychiatrist as therapy.  It would still seem fucked up to me.  

Maybe my bias against therapists is showing here.

I guess my question is: what makes people so ready to trust the 'professional'?

Quote from: jhkimIt seems to me that a lot of what people are objecting to as "mixing" of psychological role-playing and casual role-playing is really a problem with therapy itself.  i.e. It's not like role-playing skull-fucking the corpse of a cabin-boy would seem any better if it were done by a professional psychiatrist as therapy.

So, is this what's known as a "strawman"?  Would you really assume that a professional therapist would roleplay skull-fucking the corpse of a cabin-boy as part of therapy?

Like I stated in the other thread, John, you're way too prone to hyperbole to engage in a productive discussion.  On this topic at least.

!i!

Roleplaying in therapy is pretty different from casual roleplaying for fun. Therapeutic roleplaying seems to mainly be about sympathising with others, whereas casual roleplaying involves overcoming challenges posed by another player. The therapeutic game I'm most familiar with is in couples therapy, where you pretend to be the other person and explain how you feel about some situation and why. It shares almost nothing in common with say, D&D, except that you adopt a persona.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineRoleplaying in therapy is pretty different from casual roleplaying for fun. Therapeutic roleplaying seems to mainly be about sympathising with others, whereas casual roleplaying involves overcoming challenges posed by another player. The therapeutic game I'm most familiar with is in couples therapy, where you pretend to be the other person and explain how you feel about some situation and why. It shares almost nothing in common with say, D&D, except that you adopt a persona.

All of the above and the fact that a therapy session is usually done by a trained professional who is accredited and certified in their field with a purpose of healing while a game is usually done by untrained non-professionals for fun. A person who turns to role-playing games as a form of serious therapy deserves the mind-fuck that they are about to get.

Again, I think we have to make the distinction between roleplaying, games, and roleplaying games.

Monopoly is a game, as is chess. However, they are different to a roleplaying game because... of the roleplaying.

Therapy and education can involve roleplaying. However, they are different to a roleplaying game because of... the game.

When you combine two things into another you often get something different. Adding roleplaying to games is like adding poisonous gas to flammable metal - chlorine to sodium - and useful and tasy salt. The combination provides you with something new, which has characteristics different to its components, characteristics you just don't expect from looking at the originals.

I'm a schoolteacher in a psych hospital, so I see this all around. Kids in treatment are generally forbidden from playing role-playing games, though they do ocasional roleplaying in treatment. I stay away from it. Issues invariably come up around role-playing games in treatment, regardless of the intentions with which they are used. I'm sure there's a means of sharpening a role-playing game to do just what you want it to do in a school. I'm sure it's much, much, much harder than proponents think it would be, but I'm sure it could be done.

In treatment, though, I think the whole exercise of role-playing--treatment, game, whatever--should be strictly limited. If I were in a rehab hospital where the kids were all recovering from destroyed knees and elbows, we wouldn't be playing a lot of volleyball. At my hospital, the kids' minds and imaginations are severely damaged. Role-playing recreationally would be like the volleyball. It's going to reopen wounds and do more damage.

You could argue that role-playing would be good stretching and positive exercise for kids who've healed sufficiently for the challenge. I won't disagree. Kids leave the hospital and go outpatient long before they're that sufficiently healed. So-I don't have many observations to inform that.

I'll play table games with kids to illustrate points in lessons, sometimes. But--in my situation--I stay away from games with a role-playing component.

When I was a kid I was a total jackass. In a desperate attempt to help, one of the many things my dad tried was various counselors and psychologists. In a couple of the sessions I played D&D, once with me as the GM and once with the counselor as the GM. I had fun and she got a chance to evaluate my responses to various types of problems in a setting where I was completely relaxed and not afraid to be myself. It worked well for what it was intended.

I'm also sure that it could blow up in someone's face if they don't know what they're doing, and I'm dubious about it's usefulness when used with a patient who is more capable of divorcing themselves from the fantasy matter (i.e. someone older than 10).

For the record, I brought up D&D while discussing what kind of stuff I do for fun. I don't know if she'd ever have thought of using it as a tool or not.

Quote from: jeff37923All of the above and the fact that a therapy session is usually done by a trained professional who is accredited and certified in their field with a purpose of healing while a game is usually done by untrained non-professionals for fun. A person who turns to role-playing games as a form of serious therapy deserves the mind-fuck that they are about to get.

Quote from: James McMurrayWhen I was a kid I was a total jackass. In a desperate attempt to help, one of the many things my dad tried was various counselors and psychologists. In a couple of the sessions I played D&D, once with me as the GM and once with the counselor as the GM. I had fun and she got a chance to evaluate my responses to various types of problems in a setting where I was completely relaxed and not afraid to be myself. It worked well for what it was intended.

So while I'm sure there are pitfalls, I think James example disproves Jeff's generalization about use of RPGs being a "mind-fuck".  

Incidentally, here's a link to the article I mentioned: "Therapy is Fantasy: Roleplaying, Healing and the Construction of Symbolic Order" - which has a case study of someone with depression whose playing RPGs helped.  

On the other hand, I'm perfectly prepared to believe Stu that role-playing in general is inappropriate for kids who are hospitalized.  However, note that that's only a subset of the range of therapy.  

Quote from: stu2000You could argue that role-playing would be good stretching and positive exercise for kids who've healed sufficiently for the challenge. I won't disagree. Kids leave the hospital and go outpatient long before they're that sufficiently healed. So-I don't have many observations to inform that.

I'll play table games with kids to illustrate points in lessons, sometimes. But--in my situation--I stay away from games with a role-playing component.

That sounds pretty reasonable.

And again, McMurray's counsellor was the GM.

It wasn't just some dweeb who reckoned they could "help" the player.

Roleplaying as a part of therapy supervised by a qualified individual? Sure. Just like when the doctor prescribes you drugs, rather than you "self-medicating." No worries at all.

An rpg written, or an rpg session run, as "therapy" by some unqualified gamer? No.

The idea of rpgs written and presented by non-therapists and non-teachers as therapy or education shows a very superficial knowledge of the subjects. I wouldn't ask Gary Gygax to do an appendectomy on me, I don't see why playing around in my head, or teaching me about the world, is going to be any different.

I consider RPGs to be therapy in the sense that I play them as means of having fun and relaxing.  There are definite therapeutic effects going on.  Is it any different to any other social activity?  Well, the immersive nature of RPGs ensures they are pretty effective at helping me to escape the day-to-day stresses of life.  More so than just, say, hanging out with friends.  But that's a far cry from using RPGs as a tool for treating a legitimate medical condition.

And I don't think I'd want to play a game that was designed as a means of therapy.  I roleplay in order to kill things and take their stuff... not to be moulded into a better human being.

Quote from: Kyle AaronAnd again, McMurray's counsellor was the GM.

It wasn't just some dweeb who reckoned they could "help" the player.

Definitely. If some schmuck thinks he can help his girlfriend overcome childhood trauma by GMing her through a rape scene he should be beaten to death with his rulebooks before he does serious harm.

Quote from: James McMurrayDefinitely. If some schmuck thinks he can help his girlfriend overcome childhood trauma by GMing her through a rape scene he should be beaten to death with his rulebooks before he does serious harm.

I agree, violence is educational It might even be therapeutic. I once had a girlfriend who'd been molested as a child. In play she enjoyed playing a muscular barbarian woman who cleaved her foes with a greatsword. She said it was very therapeutic. "Empowering" I believe is the word she used. And I just used AD&D 1e DMG's random dungeon generator. I also had no therapeutic intentions. I was 16 years old, horny, had a beautiful curvy girlfriend and... rolled dice with her.

I wasn't very smart.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI was 16 years old, horny, had a beautiful curvy girlfriend and... rolled dice with her.

I wasn't very smart.

And yet I'm sure her father appreciated you.

!i!

I used to think Therapy? were a great band. Yes, I'm gullible. But, really, that has nothing to do with roleplaying, people.