This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The message boards have been upgraded. Please log in to your existing account by clicking here. It will ask twice, so that it can properly update your password and login information. If it has trouble recognizing your password, click the 'Forgot your password?' link to reset it with a new password sent to your email address on file.

Author Topic: Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....  (Read 3454 times)

GameDaddy

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2931
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2017, 04:26:48 PM »
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952650
I have no ethical issues with robot slavery.


Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

~ Dave Arneson

AsenRG

  • Bloody Weselian Hippy
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5036
    • View Profile
    • http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.com/
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2017, 05:13:49 PM »
Quote from: Simlasa;952628
All you'd have to do is put a face on it, even an inert one, and people would bond with it all the more.

But people are likely to form attachments to them anyway, hold onto them longer, unless some provision is implemented to dissuade that.
Those people do need to stop anthropomorphisizing:).

Quote from: Tristram Evans;952650
I have no ethical issues with robot slavery.
That's normal. I also don't have issues with cars doing exactly what I want of them, and then getting recycled;).
What Do You Do In Tekumel? See examples!
"Life is not fair. If the campaign setting is somewhat like life then the setting also is sometimes not fair." - Bren

Xanther

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • X
  • Posts: 922
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2017, 04:19:42 PM »
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952650
I have no ethical issues with robot slavery.

Mechanicals will have not ethical issues with enslavement of biologicals either. :)

I think the real issue with robots and androids isn't there sentience, it's how they are portrayed as inherently physical superior to humans.    It seems to be forgotten that the same material tech that would allow for such strong and compact robots and androids could easily be made into an exoskeleton or suit for humans.  It presumes humans won't enhance themselves mentally and physically in other ways.
 

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8787
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2017, 06:55:34 PM »
To address the original topic - For robots which are clearly intelligent, sentient, and self-aware, then I would say it is morally clear that they should have rights and not be slaves. If the robots are clearly only animal intelligence or not self-aware, then they shouldn't.

That said, lots of science fiction is set in dystopian futures where slavery exists - i.e. humans are enslaved by uplifted apes, or uplifted apes are enslaved by humans, or genetically inferior people are enslaved, or what have you.


Quote from: Xanther;952928
Mechanicals will have not ethical issues with enslavement of biologicals either. :)

I think the real issue with robots and androids isn't there sentience, it's how they are portrayed as inherently physical superior to humans.    It seems to be forgotten that the same material tech that would allow for such strong and compact robots and androids could easily be made into an exoskeleton or suit for humans.  It presumes humans won't enhance themselves mentally and physically in other ways.
I don't think that's a particularly broad assumption in science fiction. For example, in Star Wars you have both droids that are not physically superior to humans (like C3-PO) and biologicals that are enhanced (like General Grievous).  Of course, not all robots and not all biologicals will be equally enhanced - which is reasonable.

The annoying part for me in Star Wars is that slavery isn't even questioned. No one in the setting appears to be abolitionists trying to stop the practice of slavery, which is widespread even for biologicals.

Matt

  • Fan of sexy sci fi
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2017, 07:02:48 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;952955


The annoying part for me in Star Wars is that slavery isn't even questioned. No one in the setting appears to be abolitionists trying to stop the practice of slavery, which is widespread even for biologicals.


Hmm, I've seen all three movies several times and the only real slave I recall was Leia in Jabba's palace, which was implied but I don't recall an outright statement. Widespread?

Tristram Evans

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1083
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2017, 07:24:34 PM »
If we can instill self-awareness in a robot, we can just as easily instill it with an intense desire to help and care for humankind. Self awareness in AI isnt a magic button that grants it a soul. Creating a robot to be a "slave" is no different than creating a robot to be a car manufacturer or vacuum cleaner.
I'm not here anymore.
PARIEDOLIA

I'll be posting to the RPG Pub forum (http://www.rpgpub.com) if anyone's interested in joining me. Free speech, no politics.

Omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 14808
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2017, 07:24:46 PM »
Quote from: Matt;952959
Hmm, I've seen all three movies several times and the only real slave I recall was Leia in Jabba's palace, which was implied but I don't recall an outright statement. Widespread?

He's referring to the prequel movies. Anakin and his mom are slaves. The Jedi are perfectly fine with this and do nothing.

As for Leia. She seemed more like a prisoner being treated like a slave to humiliate her. She seemed the exception as all the other girls appear to be employees possibly. Who knows. Robots on the other hand are treated like slaves in some cases. Tools in others.

Its possible that people in the SW universe mostly think of AIs as just sophisticated programming and not really sentient. Just really good at mimicing sentience. again. Who knows. You can play guesswork forever.

Omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 14808
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2017, 07:32:45 PM »
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952967
If we can instill self-awareness in a robot, we can just as easily instill it with an intense desire to help and care for humankind. Self awareness in AI isnt a magic button that grants it a soul. Creating a robot to be a "slave" is no different than creating a robot to be a car manufacturer or vacuum cleaner.

d20 GW ramped that up to 100 with the soultech concept. Someone came up with an electronic copy of a brain or sentience and then for god unknown reasons people started casually sticking the things in everything. Fully aware minds and going quietly insane from boredom or neglect. And then the game flipped this around and its shown that the human mind was just as easily reprogrammed as a computer with rampant ideology wars that literally re-wrote people to believe an ideal. O r even totally reshape them physically as well as mentally.

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8787
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2017, 08:00:04 PM »
Quote from: Matt;952959
Hmm, I've seen all three movies several times and the only real slave I recall was Leia in Jabba's palace, which was implied but I don't recall an outright statement. Widespread?

If you're restricting to only the first three movies, then biological slaves aren't featured as much - though there was another slave girl at Jabba's palace referred to as Oola. However, slavery features very prominently in the plot - since the first movie starts with Threepio and Artoo captured and brought to a slave market where they are explicitly bid on and bought by Luke's uncle.


Quote from: Tristram Evans;952967
If we can instill self-awareness in a robot, we can just as easily instill it with an intense desire to help and care for humankind. Self awareness in AI isnt a magic button that grants it a soul. Creating a robot to be a "slave" is no different than creating a robot to be a car manufacturer or vacuum cleaner.

If we can do that, then technology may also be advanced enough that we can genetically or surgically engineer a baby to grow up with an intense desire to help and care for humankind. Would it be ethical to create and sell such people as property? I would say no.

It is possible to engineer either biological or mechanical beings. Some of them are just like ants or dogs or vacuum cleaners. However, in science fiction, we also create beings that have all the qualities of human thought - who reflect on moral and ethical questions, and so forth. For the latter, then keeping them as slaves is wrong - even if we have the ability to mind-control them to obey.

Lynn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1837
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2017, 08:31:22 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;952955
The annoying part for me in Star Wars is that slavery isn't even questioned. No one in the setting appears to be abolitionists trying to stop the practice of slavery, which is widespread even for biologicals.


Is slavery depicted in any location which is a prime world where the government actually cares?

Also, have you found any SW movie or story that has ever explained why every droid seems to have their own personality? I couldn't.  I came up with my own solution to this in running the WEG Star Wars - all droid intelligence is designed using a special closed system 'core' which is not understood (any analysis ruins it), but produces working and compliant droids; for some reason, advanced AIs all go quickly insane otherwise and attack sentient beings. Therefore, you put up with the annoying ones because they otherwise work.
Lynn Fredricks
Entrepreneurial Hat Collector

Voros

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3537
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2017, 07:14:42 AM »
Brian Aldiss made what I thought was a very interesting argument regarding the humanized or 'feeling' robot in his history of sf, A Billion Year Spree. He argues that the robot is a metaphor for dehumanization, usually due to the negative effects of technology or other causes on society.

So in his view to make robots 'like us' with feelings or soul is mere sentimentality (we've all seen/read that when it comes to this) that has none of the metaphorical charge of the original. Androids and AI are perhaps different as metaphors though.

Dave R

  • Gamer
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • D
  • Posts: 216
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2017, 08:11:07 AM »
Quote from: OldGuy2;951933
The Great Comic Book Heroes Blogspot.ca - Joe Pi from Top Ten  Page 12

PS: Gack.  Necrothreading, sorry.  New to Forum.


You know, I never minded necros if it added something to the discussion.

To save scrolling through:


jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8787
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2017, 01:27:53 PM »
Quote from: jhkim
The annoying part for me in Star Wars is that slavery isn't even questioned. No one in the setting appears to be abolitionists trying to stop the practice of slavery, which is widespread even for biologicals.
Quote from: Lynn;952976
Is slavery depicted in any location which is a prime world where the government actually cares?

Also, have you found any SW movie or story that has ever explained why every droid seems to have their own personality? I couldn't.  I came up with my own solution to this in running the WEG Star Wars - all droid intelligence is designed using a special closed system 'core' which is not understood (any analysis ruins it), but produces working and compliant droids; for some reason, advanced AIs all go quickly insane otherwise and attack sentient beings. Therefore, you put up with the annoying ones because they otherwise work.
As far as I can tell, droids are slaves everywhere including the capital Coruscant. Also, there were a ton of biological slaves sold to the Republic for use as shock troops, and the Jedi and Republic government put them to use rather than manumitting them. As far as I could tell, no characters even suggest freeing them as an option.

CRKrueger

  • Hulk in the Vineyard
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12464
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2017, 04:01:25 PM »
Yeah, what are the Clones but slaves?  It's specifically mentioned that they are property of the Kaminoans sold to the Republic.  Even worse is that the reason the Jedi don't get involved is because they stay out of politics.  The way the Hutts run their planets isn't considered a violation of basic sentient rights, it's a governmental matter outside the Jedi's jurisdiction.  Of course they get maneuvered into being Generals in the Seperatist War, and further lose their way.

Sure, you can argue that overthrowing evil governments will eventually lead to the Jedi being conquerors and crusaders, but I think it's more than that.  The Jedi aren't the Good to the Sith's Evil, and the Republic tolerates much we don't.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Lynn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1837
    • View Profile
Robots & Androids - the REAL problem with them....
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2017, 09:20:07 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;953112
As far as I can tell, droids are slaves everywhere including the capital Coruscant. Also, there were a ton of biological slaves sold to the Republic for use as shock troops, and the Jedi and Republic government put them to use rather than manumitting them. As far as I could tell, no characters even suggest freeing them as an option.
Can droids be considered sentient merely because they present some form of self awareness?

Yes, those clone armies do count as sentient slave beings. That just doesn't jive with the sort of morality the Republic seems to portray. It could also be the point that the Republic, because of its willingness to use slave labor, really doesn't have that great a moral high ground over the Empire.
Lynn Fredricks
Entrepreneurial Hat Collector