Quote from: Arduin;713896I thought that WotC is designing Next so that if you like 4e style you can play that, if you like 3.x you can play that.  Or, play all styles at the same time...

That may have been a goal at one time, but I am not sure it matters.

My reasoning is that people generally fall into two catagories:

"Play anything"

"Only play the one tru rpg"

Quote from: Arduin;713896I thought that WotC is designing Next so that if you like 4e style you can play that, if you like 3.x you can play that.  Or, play all styles at the same time...

The playtest files do not reflect that. Nor do the released adventures. Very much back into the classic/3.X mode.

The problem is that D&D 4e is as different from 3.X/Classic as GURPS.

The "4e" additions to Next will be in the form of a grid based tactical rules. But it won't be anything like 4e. You would be better of going with 13th Age if you want something supported.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;713859It isn't just you, as evidenced by the poll where 96% of the respondents had played 4e.  It's overwhelmingly clear the type of people who were responding to polls at that time.

I didn't want to put too fine a point on it, but I was hoping that would be the inference that was made from my post.

Quote from: estar;713911You would be better of going with 13th Age if you want something supported.

I was under the impression that 13th Age was gridless, and not really a direct 4E clone, no?

Quote from: Mistwell;713823Why do you keep saying this?



Right after the articles talking about what they're developing at that time.  Right now they are working on monsters.  Here is the most recent one in the Wandering Monsters series of articles (and they list the four most recent polls before that one at the bottom):

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20131127

And then of course they have the D&D Next surveys, a link of which is provided when you sign up and download a playtest package.

My bad I forgot about the polls that asked if you like a creature presented with or without fur. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;713824Once again, you fail.  The announcement of Next didn't come out until 2012, after your initial polls you posted.

Well shit, you got me there.  I didn't realize that.  I fucked up.  You win.


Wait a minute... look at those poll results from January on.  Still not seeing this overwhelming desire to go back to the oldnewness.  Those poll results do not reflect what was in the initial playtest.

Quote from: Bill;713908That may have been a goal at one time, but I am not sure it matters.

My reasoning is that people generally fall into two catagories:

"Play anything"

"Only play the one tru rpg"

I've found more variation on that, but its more to do with what the game's about than what rules system it uses.

Quote from: estar;713911The playtest files do not reflect that. Nor do the released adventures. Very much back into the classic/3.X mode.

The problem is that D&D 4e is as different from 3.X/Classic as GURPS.

The "4e" additions to Next will be in the form of a grid based tactical rules. But it won't be anything like 4e. You would be better of going with 13th Age if you want something supported.

Okay, that makes more sense.  I couldn't figure out how to mix 4 & classic/3.x at the same table.  

So, it is the one game to rule (from Basic - 3.x) paradigm.  Even that is going to be extremely tough.  It'll be more Camel than Horse.

Quote from: Bobloblah;713924I was under the impression that 13th Age was gridless, and not really a direct 4E clone, no?

My impression it is the second coming of 4e. It can be related to 4e and be gridless. Remember the heart of 4e is that it is a EXCEPTION based system. So you can make a very different game by how you define the exceptions i.e. powers. Note I don't think 13th age is that different, my understand it works pretty much like 4e except the powers and abilities are designed to easily work without a grid just as in AD&D you didn't have to use miniatures but you could.

Quote from: Arduin;713934So, it is the one game to rule (from Basic - 3.x) paradigm.  Even that is going to be extremely tough.  It'll be more Camel than Horse.

It not going to be one game to rule. They know that between the OGL, Pathfinder, the OSR, and other the market is packed with D&D variants some close and some not.

Yes they will be pushing products but my opinion is they want to build THE BRAND into something that everybody will enjoy. Some people's first choice but everybody second choice.

And it not tough, like I said because of the OGL there are dozens of variants, some with a substantial history behind them. In essence the entire open gaming community has done their playtesting for them. Not in terms of design but how people react and USE various type of D&D variants.


It going to be a game that is easily learned and played by anybody know D&D from classic to 3.X as well as novice. A game that they can build events around like Delves, Experiences, etc. A game where they introduce variety by offering adventures, and setting. More importantly WELL-WRITTEN adventures and settings.

Of course they could fuck it up or somebody get promoted as brand manager who clueless of the world outside of Wizards.

It really the only approach they can take at this point due to Pathfinder's grip on 3.X and open gaming grip on everything else.

And it not a bad thing either. The heart of tabletop roleplaying is the experience of playing a character in another place and/or time. It not a wargame, it is not a story, but being somebody else somewhere else. Offer a fun and interesting experience you won half the battle.

Quote from: estar;713992My impression it is the second coming of 4e. It can be related to 4e and be gridless. Remember the heart of 4e is that it is a EXCEPTION based system. So you can make a very different game by how you define the exceptions i.e. powers. Note I don't think 13th age is that different, my understand it works pretty much like 4e except the powers and abilities are designed to easily work without a grid just as in AD&D you didn't have to use miniatures but you could.

Ah, ok. Thanks! I have to admit that once I heard it compared to 4E I ceased to be the least bit interested in it, although I have heard a number of positive reviews since it's been released. I'm sure that just the fact that it doesn't have D&D on the cover helps people see it in a positive light.

Quote from: estar;714002It not going to be one game to rule. They know that between the OGL, Pathfinder, the OSR, and other the market is packed with D&D variants some close and some not.

Yes they will be pushing products but my opinion is they want to build THE BRAND into something that everybody will enjoy. Some people's first choice but everybody second choice.

And it not tough, like I said because of the OGL there are dozens of variants, some with a substantial history behind them. In essence the entire open gaming community has done their playtesting for them. Not in terms of design but how people react and USE various type of D&D variants.


It going to be a game that is easily learned and played by anybody know D&D from classic to 3.X as well as novice. A game that they can build events around like Delves, Experiences, etc. A game where they introduce variety by offering adventures, and setting. More importantly WELL-WRITTEN adventures and settings.

Of course they could fuck it up or somebody get promoted as brand manager who clueless of the world outside of Wizards.

It really the only approach they can take at this point due to Pathfinder's grip on 3.X and open gaming grip on everything else.

And it not a bad thing either. The heart of tabletop roleplaying is the experience of playing a character in another place and/or time. It not a wargame, it is not a story, but being somebody else somewhere else. Offer a fun and interesting experience you won half the battle.

This is the best analysis I've read so far vis-a-vis their marketing predicament.

Quote from: Bobloblah;714031Ah, ok. Thanks! I have to admit that once I heard it compared to 4E I ceased to be the least bit interested in it, although I have heard a number of positive reviews since it's been released. I'm sure that just the fact that it doesn't have D&D on the cover helps people see it in a positive light.

13th age looks like a betetr game than 4E to me.

But it does retain some things from 4e that you may not like.
Healing surges/recoveries/whatever you call them are still there.
At will powers exist.
That being said, it is gridless and rules lite, and looks great to me.

I have one nit pick, and it is rolling too many damage dice.
But some people don't mind that at all.