Quote from: James Gillen;726335

RIFTS
a Michael Bay Production

Exactly. Only cooler.

RE: This subject - I had a review of RIFTS Ultimate Edition that I had previously sent to The Banning Place several years ago, and I think my critiques are relevant to the current conversation, but I don't want to give those guys more web traffic.  Would it be possible to repost it in the Reviews section here?

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;724460Well, that's because point-buy systems care about dope-smoking-freak concepts like "game balance."

JG

I like Rifts; I GMed it a lot in highschool. I’m a little old school, so I’m of the thinking that game balance is up to the GM: No matter what!  

You could do a point buying system for Rifts-but this would involve (I take it) all players starting with the same amount of points; hence, you example is the extreme of something you wouldn’t do if you had a point buying system.

Dragons and Demi-gods OK-

Dragons and (human I assume) Vagabonds?-you’re right, this would be unbalanced.

My opinion is that life is unbalanced-I’ve run games like this-and found that sometimes it works (for Rifts) sometimes it doesn’t. It’s often the classic problem of role playing vs roll playing; as a gaming group dynamic. Balance is more of an issue of roll playing; where people really need to have about the same level of power-or else some in the gaming group will be unhappy with how much damage they can’t do vs what the other players can do. Also this occurs with experienced players-where they do everything they can do to max out a character within the rules.

I never ever-ever tried to buck the system I created, if my group was a bunch of roll players (BTW: I don’t mean this in a negative light, just what the players would have the most fun with) I made sure everyone had about the same power level. If I had a group of role-players we could have/create an imbalanced group-and still everyone would have a good time.

Quote from: RPGPundit;727295Exactly. [Michael Bay] Only cooler.

I've got to disagree. I find Rifts is best as exaggerated and over the top black comedy.

Quote from: James Gillen;727660RE: This subject - I had a review of RIFTS Ultimate Edition that I had previously sent to The Banning Place several years ago, and I think my critiques are relevant to the current conversation, but I don't want to give those guys more web traffic.  Would it be possible to repost it in the Reviews section here?

JG

I reposted all my reviews here. You might as well.

Quote from: danbuter;727743I reposted all my reviews here. You might as well.

Well, if someone from there wants to object it would be problematic in that it would demonstrate that somebody is reading this site.

JG

Quote from: The Butcher;724282Here's my personal test for whether a system can do Rifts:

You can have a Vagabond (a post-apocalyptic hobo, really) and a Dragon Hatchling (young, but physically very powerful and able to learn magic) in the same party.

Sounds simple enough, but most point-based systems can't do it. Unless you hand different point totals to different players and that's bullshit.

You might be surprised. . . . As an experienced rules-rapist, I can tell you that some of us can make a few points go a very long way.

This stupid thread forced me to re-read some of my Rifts books last night. Two things I noticed when skimming the main book:

1) This game is made to be played, not over-analyzed in a vacuum.

2) Clunky rules, but really, it's just D&D with laser guns. For all the knocks on the system, I never once had any issues with it in actual play. Robotech or Palladium Fantasy or Rifts or TMNT or Heroes Unlimited or Ninjas and Superspies or even Beyond the Supernatural. Just make your fucking character and play, stop complaining about balance or whatever.

Quote from: Brad;728474This stupid thread forced me to re-read some of my Rifts books last night. Two things I noticed when skimming the main book:

1) This game is made to be played, not over-analyzed in a vacuum.

Yes.

Quote from: Brad;7284742) Clunky rules, but really, it's just D&D with laser guns. For all the knocks on the system, I never once had any issues with it in actual play. Robotech or Palladium Fantasy or Rifts or TMNT or Heroes Unlimited or Ninjas and Superspies or even Beyond the Supernatural. Just make your fucking character and play, stop complaining about balance or whatever.

The idea of "balance" as conceived even by TSR-era D&D is foreign to Rifts and introjecting it (e.g. with a point-buy system) will rob the game of at least a bit of its magic.

The rules are poorly written, but the system, being a D&D hack, is very amenable to rulings.

Quote from: The Butcher;728525The idea of "balance" as conceived even by TSR-era D&D is foreign to Rifts and introjecting it (e.g. with a point-buy system) will rob the game of at least a bit of its magic.

Balance doesn't even occur in point-buy systems; I think a lot of people miss that fact. They are great for making characters to fit within a certain paradigm (supers especially), but if you read the HERO or GURPS boards for any length of time it's pretty obvious you can gently abuse and rape those systems beyond belief. I've probably said this before, but my best Rifts character ever was a mundane vagabond. His ability to go unnoticed and undetected in a variety of situations far outweighed his lack of powers, magic and cybernetics; he could easily blend in anywhere. Points can never make up for good roleplaying or using a character in creative ways.

QuoteThe rules are poorly written, but the system, being a D&D hack, is very amenable to rulings.

I wouldn't necessarily say poorly written, but definitely poorly organized. It's a lot easier to understand the megadamage combat rules if you just use Robotech and ignore everything Siembida ever wrote in his numerous rules "clarifications".

Quote from: Brad;728553Balance doesn't even occur in point-buy systems; I think a lot of people miss that fact. They are great for making characters to fit within a certain paradigm (supers especially), but if you read the HERO or GURPS boards for any length of time it's pretty obvious you can gently abuse and rape those systems beyond belief.

There is at least an attempt at such, while a lot of the same people who bitch about "balance being a myth" are the same ones who bitch about how Pathfinder or some other D&D spawn breaks down at higher levels or makes casters overpowered.  
Another aspect of the point-buy approach (which especially applies to Champions, which is where HERO started) is that more traditional systems that start with effect first can't "improvise" well enough to create the various powers that superhero comics invent all the time.  You can try, but that basically requires extrapolating from the existing material and hoping your players don't take your new power and rape the system beyond belief.  

QuoteI've probably said this before, but my best Rifts character ever was a mundane vagabond. His ability to go unnoticed and undetected in a variety of situations far outweighed his lack of powers, magic and cybernetics; he could easily blend in anywhere.

You'd have to, because if he stuck his neck out he'd be squashed like a roach in the Mega-Damage universe.  Not that cockroaches don't survive and thrive, but there's a reason they don't follow the spotlight.

QuoteI wouldn't necessarily (RIFTS is) say poorly written, but definitely poorly organized.

"Editor's Note: I don't exist."

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;728048Well, if someone from there wants to object it would be problematic in that it would demonstrate that somebody is reading this site.

JG

Unless you signed something saying that what you wrote belongs to them now, they have no basis to object.   In fact, you should have a right to object to your writing continuing to be on their forum generating them money (in theory).