Quote from: Beedo;597585Either way, the road not taken doesn't 'go into stasis' like some Schrodinger's cat.

It's a big pet peeve of mine how frequently people misuse Schrodinger's Cat.

Quote from: red lantern;597263Some of this can happen because a GM puts one vital clue in a place that has to be found, but, for whatever reason the PCs don't find it. Maybe they failed a spot hidden roll or the clue simply was not as clear as the GM thought it was, his riddle had another perfectly good interpretation, etc.

We did that once. GM had a dungeon that was almost entirely traps. We failed perception rolls (Hero system) at least 20 or 30 times to find the mechanism to open the dungeon. (It wasn't particularly well hidden. I've never seen to many high rolls on a 3d6 bell curve, in a row.) GM is question is . . . stubborn about how things should be done.

We finally solved it using our one magic item, a rod that would "burn a hole through anything." See, we knew where the cap stone to the dungeon was, we just couldn't figure out how to open it. So we burned a hole in it, dropped a 30 tree in to the hole, and levered the cap stop out of the ground. Which, coincidentally, deactivated every trap in the place. After several hours of sitting around blowing die rolls, GM just said,  "You walk in and grab the (whateve we were supposed to get) and leave."

That is one of two times I have ever seen a gamemaster with his mouth literally hanging open in shock (as we decribed the plan).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596057This seems like a legitimate concern and something that might actually happen in play.

The RPGNet discussion is defining it as "forcing your players to make a decision". Which is a pretty stupid definition and will never happen in actual play. It gets even dumber when they claim that it's as bad as actual railroading because you're "forcing your players to do something".

It's like claiming that refusing to spoon-feed a grown adult is as bad as locking that grown adult in a room and refusing to give them any food.

In either case, I don't find the term "reverse railroading" to be particularly descriptive of the behavior being described. The opposite of railroading is not railroading.

I think it comes down to Players having issues and/or timid DMs

I've seen players do this.  Usually it happens after the Dm had a lethal campaign/adventure that pissed a couple players off.  So the next go around the players refuse to engage the setting the DM is providing.

It also happens when players cannot decide on a course of action.  Their characters have their own agendas(no comprising) the players cannot let go of and the DM is to timid to call them on it.

I've seen DM get so flustered about 'railroading' and/or 'player choice' that they refuse to give direction/hints/ guidance in fear of being 'That Guy'.

If players cannot take a hint, I start laying tracks. Loads of tracks. Discreetly, if I can, with the equivalent of Idea rolls, if I suck. Half the time the problem indeed has been that I've been terribly obscure, and the other half tends to be either one of the following: the interesting tidbit of information was completely ignored for whatever reason, or forgotten because it was two sessions ago and the previous one was all about spending money or chasing red herrings and nobody wrote notes...

I try to run sandbox-style games, but that somehow works only rarely. My players end up being clueless and indecisive, apparently they have too many options, or I'm not providing enough of them. Fortunately iit is usually easy enough to get things moving by having armed goons crash through the door.

My players end up being clueless and indecisive, apparently they have too many options, or I'm not providing enough of them.

I have seen the majority of sandboxes fall apart because of this.

It is why I don't run 'true sandboxes'.  I think a true sandbox only works when;
1.  The group are long time gaming buddies.
2.  The group doesn't know each other from Adam.

Quote from: Sommerjon;5979801.  The group are long time gaming buddies.

This is us (over two decades with the same guys now) but still this keeps cropping up. I suspect the fault lies with me... Anyhow, I end up doing boxes filled with fake sand.

ED: probably the box is fake too.

Quote from: Sandepande;597988This is us (over two decades with the same guys now) but still this keeps cropping up. I suspect the fault lies with me... Anyhow, I end up doing boxes filled with fake sand.

ED: probably the box is fake too.

Or they know you will "If players cannot take a hint, I start laying tracks. Loads of tracks. Discreetly, if I can, with the equivalent of Idea rolls, if I suck."
They may just be waiting for the rails?  No idea, but that is also a side effect of LTGB.  
Like you most likely know what can set one of them off, perhaps one doesn't like funny accents, so in order to get a reaction you use a funny accent with one of the NPCs, etc.

Quote from: Sommerjon;597980It is why I don't run 'true sandboxes'.  I think a true sandbox only works when;
1.  The group are long time gaming buddies.
2.  The group doesn't know each other from Adam.

I don't think anyone on this thread defined a "true sandbox" as a box where there isn't any hint about anything or there can't possibly be hooks to situations the PCs might care about. That definition of a "true sandbox" seems to be a thing coming from people who actually have some imaginary issues with sandboxes and therefore hate them, or build a strawman around that imaginary idea, rather than something actual sandboxers talk about or promote in any way, shape or form.

That said, an actual sandbox is defined around the notion of choice. So that means that, though you totally can throw hints and hooks and situations at the PCs, ultimately it's for them to make choices as to what they want to interact and deal with, rather than just throw one single plug or "a set of tracks" at the PCs' feet with the assumption they HAVE to get on the tchoo tchoo train otherwise the pre-planned, predetermined "story line" of the game couldn't proceed.

There's a happy medium for sandboxes to actually work well: throw too many events or situations at the players and they'll be indecisive, unsure of what to care about because there are too many choices that look all equal in front of them; throw too few or no situation at the players at all, and they won't know what to do because nothing's truly going on in your sandbox and therefore, nothing to really care about in the first place. If there's such a thing as a "true sandbox", it's an actual functioning sandbox in my mind, and the amount or nature of the choices it provides to the players actually lies somewhere between those two extremes.

Well said; life is short, gaming time is shorter, a DM that recapitulates past plot hooks to help focus the players is facilitating the game, not rail roading.  My players have busy lives, and don't hang on my every word (much to their loss).  So starting a game session with, "after last week, some of the options you discussed include going back to the mist dungeon searching for the missing robot parts; following up on the clue left by the evil elves on the treasure map; setting off to the lonely spire, now that you have a passkey to get you in the place; or bush whacking across the surface ruins to find an alternate dungeon entrance".

Facilitating the options but putting it on the players to decide and plan is part and parcel of running a good sandbox game.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598002Or they know you will "If players cannot take a hint, I start laying tracks. Loads of tracks. Discreetly, if I can, with the equivalent of Idea rolls, if I suck."
They may just be waiting for the rails?  No idea, but that is also a side effect of LTGB.  
Like you most likely know what can set one of them off, perhaps one doesn't like funny accents, so in order to get a reaction you use a funny accent with one of the NPCs, etc.

You're probably right, actually. Makes perfect sense.

I have no trouble getting their attention if I want, the problem is that I end up having to do it all too often. Because, like you said, they're waiting for the train to arrive...

Quote from: Benoist;598015I don't think anyone on this thread defined a "true sandbox" as a box where there isn't any hint about anything or there can't possibly be hooks to situations the PCs might care about. That definition of a "true sandbox" seems to be a thing coming from people who actually have some imaginary issues with sandboxes and therefore hate them, or build a strawman around that imaginary idea, rather than something actual sandboxers talk about or promote in any way, shape or form.

That said, an actual sandbox is defined around the notion of choice. So that means that, though you totally can throw hints and hooks and situations at the PCs, ultimately it's for them to make choices as to what they want to interact and deal with, rather than just throw one single plug or "a set of tracks" at the PCs' feet with the assumption they HAVE to get on the tchoo tchoo train otherwise the pre-planned, predetermined "story line" of the game couldn't proceed.

There's a happy medium for sandboxes to actually work well: throw too many events or situations at the players and they'll be indecisive, unsure of what to care about because there are too many choices that look all equal in front of them; throw too few or no situation at the players at all, and they won't know what to do because nothing's truly going on in your sandbox and therefore, nothing to really care about in the first place. If there's such a thing as a "true sandbox", it's an actual functioning sandbox in my mind, and the amount or nature of the choices it provides to the players actually lies somewhere between those two extremes.

I realized long ago I don't give a fuck about railroads or sandboxes.  I will use every technique available to keep my players engaged.  

The problem with sandboxes is for every hints and hooks and situations one person perceives as choice another screams "RAILROADING MUTHERFUCKER!".

Quote from: Sommerjon;598047The problem with sandboxes is for every hints and hooks and situations one person perceives as choice another screams "RAILROADING MUTHERFUCKER!".

And that fills my RPGsite bucket o' stupid to overflowing.

Time to take a break from the inanity.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598047The problem with sandboxes is for every hints and hooks and situations one person perceives as choice another screams "RAILROADING MUTHERFUCKER!".

I think if you are free to ignore it, go another direction, or address it in any number of possible ways, then it isn't railroading even if some players choose to see it as such.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;598051And that fills my RPGsite bucket o' stupid to overflowing.

Time to take a break from the inanity.

Then I would love for you to come to my neck of the woods and meet a guy named Randy

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;598053I think if you are free to ignore it, go another direction, or address it in any number of possible ways, then it isn't railroading even if some players choose to see it as such.

And that will always be the problem with Railboxes & Sandroads.  Each person will choose to see what they want to see.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598056And that will always be the problem with Railboxes & Sandroads.  Each person will choose to see what they want to see.

Nice excluded-middle, dude. One moment sandboxes are these horrible aimless places where there's nothing to do and nowhere to go, players don't know what to do and "you gotta have the railroad for these folks who need it, man," and the next there's "really" no difference between a sandbox and a railroad because "that's all the same, so, there's really no such thing as a sandbox."

You are trying WAY too hard, grasshopper. Your mental gymnastics are showing.