Quote from: RPGPundit;353116... and remembered it with more fondness.

Or not.

Seanchai

Quote from: Hairfoot;353125Can you quote or link anything to support that?  My memory is that the OSR was rocketing along nicely well before Gygax went.

If you look back at forums and the history of OSR-stuff, it clearly did exist before Gary's death, no one is disputing that; but the volume of people into it jumped up quite a bit, and the activity in that movement as well, after Gary's death.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Seanchai;353163Or not.

Seanchai

Yeah, but the "not fondness" guys were always anti-Gygax/D&D. They experienced no shift. Whereas a lot of people who were previously neutral became more fond.

Now, I'll concede that some people may have become more loudly anti-OldSchool following the growth of the OSR et al., but that's a reaction to the Old School movement, not to Gary's death.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you look back at forums and the history of OSR-stuff, it clearly did exist before Gary's death, no one is disputing that; but the volume of people into it jumped up quite a bit, and the activity in that movement as well, after Gary's death.

Sure, the traffic at old-school forums DID increase. It increased so much at Dragonsfoot, for example, that the site has become an unbearably juvenile rehash of itself. Contrary to the above quote however, most "neo-OSR" material, including the three big retro-clones, was released before Gygax or Arneson's death.

Quote from: RPGPundit;353225Yeah, but the "not fondness" guys were always anti-Gygax/D&D.

Some were.

But I imagine some are like myself - tired of fucking hearing about him and what I consider to be revisionist history. That started around 3e and with the rise of the OSR movement.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiBut I imagine some are like myself - tired of fucking hearing about him and what I consider to be revisionist history. That started around 3e and with the rise of the OSR movement.

Care to explain that 'revisionist bit'? And make sure you mention Braunstein's 'Kreigspeil on the Bavarian Land' and Wells' 'Little Roleplaying' - I hate when these Ameritrash no-nothings start talking about rpgs like they were invented in Wisconsin. Sheesh!

Quote from: Kellri;353393Care to explain that 'revisionist bit'?

I'm curious about that myself.  I suspect he's just griping again about the OSR supposedly looking backwards, and simply means "history", but included the "revisionist" bit because it sounds all academic and history war-ish.

Quote from: Kellri;353393Care to explain that 'revisionist bit'? And make sure you mention Braunstein's 'Kreigspeil on the Bavarian Land' and Wells' 'Little Roleplaying' - I hate when these Ameritrash no-nothings start talking about rpgs like they were invented in Wisconsin. Sheesh!

I suspect he means revisionism like "old school means you never use miniatures" which was argued at this very site by an assortment of intellectual midgets. There are a lot of these claims that just sort of happened when 4E came along because people wanted to come up with reasons why they didn't like (when in reality nobody actually needs a reason to like or dislike anything).

So the old school thing may have indeed been chugging right along, before and after the passing away of Gygax. But after Gygax's passing and the release of 4E, it became a fad, as the disenfranchised haters (often these also turned out to be people who were dabbling in d20 publishing, go figure) sort of wandered around like hilariously hateful clown-zombies trying to figure out how they fit in.  

As a fad, most of these freshly self-identified "olde schoolers" coudn't trace anything regarding RPGs much further back than the 1990s and 1st Edition White Wolf Vampire (but were more than willing to yap about it).I can't really fault Malizewski for his blog of rediscovery, but he was never "old school". If you ask the question directly, he'll admit it.

Now... that fad pretty much ended ~4 months ago.

From an Ameritrash point of view, though.. I have often wondered. Why is it that so many of the leading icons live outside of the United States? You've got Hungary and Finland and Vietnam represented, but if it doesn't happen within 30 miles of Baltimore, I guess I could care less.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353400Now... that fad pretty much ended ~4 months ago.

Were you thinking of some particular event or line of demarcation on that?

Quote from: Zachary The First;353406Were you thinking of some particular event or line of demarcation on that?

Well, I said "pretty much"

As in most trends, there's no particular line of demarcation.

I mean, you still have the chump-faction blogsters trying to bash 4e and the people playing it (and Zach, it pains me to say that includes you, but it totally does), but now they try to be subtle because all they are actually doing is embarrassing themselves. It kinda cracks me up that by this time I have now watched over a year of bewildered flailing and snide comments about the evils of organized campaigns and those who participate in them, withstood a barrage of personal insults... and then Targa comes along, touted by the exact same guys.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353400So the old school thing may have indeed been chugging right along, before and after the passing away of Gygax. But after Gygax's passing and the release of 4E, it became a fad, as the disenfranchised haters (often these also turned out to be people who were dabbling in d20 publishing, go figure) sort of wandered around like hilariously hateful clown-zombies trying to figure out how they fit in.

Any sort of links or source for that claim would be nice, too.

Since I've been posting on this site, Abyssal Maw and Seanchai have been deeply offended that many people dare to not like 4E, but I don't think there's ever been any indication of "disenfranchised haters" either before or after Gygax's death.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353408Well, I said "pretty much"

As in most trends, there's no particular line of demarcation.

I mean, you still have the chump-faction blogsters trying to bash 4e and the people playing it (and Zach, it pains me to say that includes you, but it totally does), but now they try to be subtle because all they are actually doing is embarrassing themselves. It kinda cracks me up that by this time I have now watched over a year of bewildered flailing and snide comments about the evils of organized campaigns and those who participate in them, withstood a barrage of personal insults... and then Targa comes along, touted by the exact same guys.

Yeah...here, I think we need to divorce 4e-bashers from Old School/Neoclassic/Whatever.  There are enough Pathfinder/3.5/Whatever system people out there doing it that it would be quite false to say it is any sort of identifying aspect of the OSR or whatever.  I know OSR bloggers like Chgowiz have played it and had an ok time, even.

No, I don't like 4e, and do take some potshots, as much as I don't care if people are playing it and having a good time.  I actively despise WotC most of the time, and am not good about hiding it.  But that really doesn't have anything to do with the health of classical gaming.

There are more old-school blogs and products now then there were a year ago.  That doesn't translate into players, but there's definitely still an upswell in the DIY movement.  Fight On! doesn't suffer for submissions, and both Labyrinth Lord and S&W have been picked up for distro.  Prelim reports I'm hearing suggest GaryCon this year will be even more well-attended.  I'm not seeing any signs of a letdown.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353409Any sort of links or source for that claim would be nice, too.

Since I've been posting on this site, Abyssal Maw and Seanchai have been deeply offended that many people dare to not like 4E, but I don't think there's ever been any indication of "disenfranchised haters" either before or after Gygax's death.

You don't see it because you are one of them.

If this hasn't ever been clear, let me state it now: I honestly seriously, no-kidding don't care what you like or dislike- 4E or otherwise. You are nobody I would ever even bother to game with because you seem like an odious person lacking in any kind of worthwhile personality. So in general, if I had to produce an opinion, I'd say "thank god you're not involved in this game and cannot embarrass me by sharing a game table with me, you subhuman puke".

But usually what I do is respond to people simply being factually incorrect or (as is often in your case) mistaking their utter lack of insight, talent, knowledge, or experience regarding a game they don't understand, don't like, and don't play. I will respond to that. It's fun.

Quote from: Zachary The First;353413Yeah...here, I think we need to divorce 4e-bashers from Old School/Neoclassic/Whatever.  There are enough Pathfinder/3.5/Whatever system people out there doing it that it would be quite false to say it is any sort of identifying aspect of the OSR or whatever.  I know OSR bloggers like Chgowiz have played it and had an ok time, even.

It's not the whole group, it's clearly the hangers on. And what I am saying is much of the hangers on have gone.

QuoteNo, I don't like 4e, and do take some potshots, as much as I don't care if people are playing it and having a good time.  I actively despise WotC most of the time, and am not good about hiding it.  But that really doesn't have anything to do with the health of classical gaming.

You only think you are attacking WOTC. What you are actually doing is attacking regular, normal, innocent people who have no idea what you are problem is, who are playing a game. It's desperate and sickening.

QuoteThere are more old-school blogs and products now then there were a year ago.

Only if you count the dead and abandoned ones.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353419It's not the whole group, it's clearly the hangers on. And what I am saying is much of the hangers on have gone.



You only think you are attacking WOTC. What you are actually doing is attacking regular, normal, innocent people who have no idea what you are problem is, who are playing a game. It's desperate and sickening.



Only if you count the dead and abandoned ones.

Yeah...I really don't think that's the case.

Look, I'm a RPG blogger.  Occasionally, the elephant in the room of WotC/4e is going to come up.  I don't think I've been too mean-spirited with what I write, and I seriously doubt my pissant site with ~600 subscribers is causing widespread hurt and consternation.

As for the old-school blogs, if I had the time this morning, I'm pretty sure I could furnish you with a robust list of recently updated ones.  I'm not sure if you do your reading through RSS feeds or what, but attrition is natural part of blogging.  People get burnt out (as I did with my previous effort).  I still learn about a new blog of that type every other week or so.