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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Valatar on April 06, 2021, 03:48:22 PM

Title: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Valatar on April 06, 2021, 03:48:22 PM
David (Olivia) Hill the ex-White Wolf writer has been outed for sneaking around with an artist who was working for him and playing the "I'll totally leave my wife for you, baby" game with her.

https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1srlbfj

Quote
So a year ago i met Olivia. We hit it off immediately, as I had never done before. I had a boyfriend at the time. We were not perfect but we were stable. Little by little Olivia and me started flirting, harmless at first, then it escalated and we talked about wanting to be together. She told me she was in an open relationship with her wife Filamena. I agreed to it. Eventually she told her wife that she wanted to be with me, and I told my boyfriend that I wanted ua to be open so I could also date Olivia.

I wish I could say things were good and then went bad. It wasn't like that. Things were bad from the get go. Filamena wasn't ok with us being together, even forced Olivia to break up with me one day. After that we had a talk, the three of us, and Olivia and me went back together. But things kept being shit. I was "the other one", it was never an equal relationship with the one ahe had with her wife. We didn't have any time just for us. And then, later, when a day was assigned for us to hangout by ourselves in a call all day, it was a day decided by the two of them, which clashed with my sunday game, and i had to miss it several times to be able to be with my girlfriend.

A lot of stuff happened in between. This started in September 2020. To be honest i don't remember all of it because it was a shithole and it hurts. But i can tell you that for a time i was really fucking scared of things not working out between the three of us because there was work involved. Money. Money I could depend on. Luckily i have commissions going on now that i can say that is not a.concern anymore.

One of the latest stuff is that we had a huge blowup because basically i had no assurance from Olivia that she wanted to be with me. Oh, I forgot to say: after i tried to go to USA to be with Olivia and figure if things were gonna work out, and I couldn't enter the country, i got back home and my boyfriend broke up with me because he figured i loved Olivia more than him. Which was true, so can't blame him. Anyways, i wanted some assurance, since i had essentially changed my whole life to try to be with her and she had done shit. So i told her to come to Chile. She fought me about it, tried to manipulate me by making me feel sorry for her (that's what she does, beware) but i put my foot down and she bought the tickets.

She's here now. We have had a cool time together, but also a rollercoaster. I was unwilling for a while to work things with her if she was still with her wife, because I felt like i was gonna be treated badly by Filamena. Not badly as in physically or even harsh words. Just thought I was gonna be considered an appendix on Olivia's life by her, and I didn't want that. And I was correct. A few days ago Mena and me talked, and she basically told me what I feared. That, as you can imagine, is incompatible with me being with Olivia. So I told her we can't be together if she's with her wife. She couldn't make a decision so i broke up with her. Later she called Filamena, and when she got off the phone with her she told me they were getting a divorce. So, we got back together. Olivia was bad, and I wanted to be there for her. So i did.

Yesterday i decided i was willing to work things out. Like for real. Figure things out so the three of us can have a good life. Turns out Filamena was unaware that Olivia and me were back together. And the divorce wasn't a thing. Now, you have to understand: this "we are separating, we are getting a divorce" is nothing new. Has happened several times before, so at this point i felt it as the manipulation tactic that it was. And when i found out that she didn't know, and things were shitty again, i couldn't stand it anymore. I told Olivia she should leave her wife if she wanted to be with me. I still believed we could have something. But she never wanted that. She never meant to leave her wife. I was played with and left hanging. For a long time. And i can't anymore.

Last night i was going to leave, go home, leave Olivia at the airbnb i rented for a month so we could be together. She told me to stay. I admit I told her if she left Filamena, we could be together. If not, I would air all of this. At this point, I am airing it not because of that, but because i no longer think things can work with Olivia. I have been hurt enough. I have been left aside enough. I didn't leave last night because she asked me not to. So i didn't. Because I'm stupid. I stayed.

Now i realized this is never going to be good for me. Never. This is going to keep being hell for me. And I am sick of it. I want closure. And I want to not have to cross paths with these people ever again.

They surely will come out with their side of the story. I don't care. It's better, in a way. That way you can get the whole story.

His response has been to bemoan how painful this all is for him and how much this woman is hurting him, when I'm reasonably sure if he wasn't trying to slip it to an employee on the side it wouldn't be coming up as an issue today.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 06, 2021, 04:03:28 PM
*Quintesson laughs while faces rotate*
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: wmarshal on April 06, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
All the therapy in the world won’t fix what’s gone wrong with that situation. For the spurned action on the side the best to hope for is an epiphany of some kind to get that life back into some semblance of being able to function.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 04:13:42 PM
Sounds like some personal shit that got out of hand and inextricably linked to their design now. Hill doesn't have her name on any current projects beyond iHunt far as I know so will probably keep chugging along on whatever she's doing.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on April 06, 2021, 04:46:13 PM
Further evidence in the ever-growing pile why classical rules of Christian chastity took the shape they did for a reason.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 04:47:52 PM
What is the reason
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on April 06, 2021, 05:00:15 PM
What is the reason(?)

Preventing s**tstorms like the one outlined in the original post.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Reckall on April 06, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
I have two immediate questions here:

A) Is any of these characters out of middle school?

B) We should care about this litany... why?

Further evidence in the ever-growing pile why classical rules of Christian chastity took the shape they did for a reason.

It was St. Augustine, IIRC, who said "Ethics and Morals are not only a way to go to Heaven, they also have practical, real-life usefulness."
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Melan on April 06, 2021, 06:09:36 PM
Further evidence in the ever-growing pile why classical rules of Christian chastity took the shape they did for a reason.
I mean... yes, that was my first thought too while reading this mess. There is very good reason monogamous relationships between one man and one woman became the standard in our culture. Still not easy, but just look at this crap. This is no way to live a life, let alone maintain a society in good shape.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2021, 06:15:18 PM
So, a cheating scumbag met another cheating scumbag whoe didn't want to stop being a cheating scumbag...

I think I should feel sorry for someone but I don't, if a person is willing to cheat on their spouse/SI to "be with you"... What makes you think that person has any kind of morals?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 06:31:49 PM
I have two immediate questions here:

A) Is any of these characters out of middle school?

B) We should care about this litany... why?


You shouldn't really, but if we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shasarak on April 06, 2021, 07:06:45 PM
If we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do

I guess just continue to present the Others as immoral failures.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Reckall on April 06, 2021, 07:15:26 PM
I have two immediate questions here:

A) Is any of these characters out of middle school?

B) We should care about this litany... why?


You shouldn't really, but if we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do

I want to clarify that with B) I meant "Why all of this is considered worthy enough to be inflicted on the internet at large by this Francita gal?"

I had my ups and downs in my sentimental life - more than other people I know. Each one of them was different but they all shared a key commonality: Not one of them ever made me think "Hey! The World must just know about this private brouhaha of mine!"
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 08:42:27 PM
I have two immediate questions here:

A) Is any of these characters out of middle school?

B) We should care about this litany... why?


You shouldn't really, but if we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do

I want to clarify that with B) I meant "Why all of this is considered worthy enough to be inflicted on the internet at large by this Francita gal?"

I had my ups and downs in my sentimental life - more than other people I know. Each one of them was different but they all shared a key commonality: Not one of them ever made me think "Hey! The World must just know about this private brouhaha of mine!"

I guess that depends on how much you feel like not saying shit will lead to something similar happening to another coworker of the accused further down line. If you don't, it's all nonsense. If you do, you can still def question the approach for sure.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: SHARK on April 06, 2021, 09:06:47 PM
So, a cheating scumbag met another cheating scumbag whoe didn't want to stop being a cheating scumbag...

I think I should feel sorry for someone but I don't, if a person is willing to cheat on their spouse/SI to "be with you"... What makes you think that person has any kind of morals?

Greetings!

So true, brother!

I was talking with a friend about this kind of stuff right here. People that have morals and self-discipline often tend towards living lives that are considered by many to be structured, routine, and boring. As I told my friend though, in the long run, they are happier, and have nothing to be ashamed of.

Scum like this, however, have lives filled with constant drama, bullshit, and emotional turmoil. So many people like these have lives that are absolute chaos and filled with pain, for everyone within reach. But, of course, these people always have a litany of excuses and rationale for why none of the pain, chaos, and bullshit in their lives is ever their fault--no, it's always everyone else's fault. These people never seem to come to grips with their own deep-seated immorality, their own corruption, their selfishness, and terrible judgment.

Watch them wallow and choke on shit. Their lives are an endless cycle of bullshit. Ever notice how all of their lovers and so many of their friends and social circles are the same as them?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 09:13:29 PM
So, a cheating scumbag met another cheating scumbag whoe didn't want to stop being a cheating scumbag...

I think I should feel sorry for someone but I don't, if a person is willing to cheat on their spouse/SI to "be with you"... What makes you think that person has any kind of morals?

Greetings!

So true, brother!

I was talking with a friend about this kind of stuff right here. People that have morals and self-discipline often tend towards living lives that are considered by many to be structured, routine, and boring. As I told my friend though, in the long run, they are happier, and have nothing to be ashamed of.

Scum like this, however, have lives filled with constant drama, bullshit, and emotional turmoil. So many people like these have lives that are absolute chaos and filled with pain, for everyone within reach. But, of course, these people always have a litany of excuses and rationale for why none of the pain, chaos, and bullshit in their lives is ever their fault--no, it's always everyone else's fault. These people never seem to come to grips with their own deep-seated immorality, their own corruption, their selfishness, and terrible judgment.

Watch them wallow and choke on shit. Their lives are an endless cycle of bullshit. Ever notice how all of their lovers and so many of their friends and social circles are the same as them?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Feels like you're a hair away from telling them to accept Christ.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2021, 09:24:12 PM
So, a cheating scumbag met another cheating scumbag whoe didn't want to stop being a cheating scumbag...

I think I should feel sorry for someone but I don't, if a person is willing to cheat on their spouse/SI to "be with you"... What makes you think that person has any kind of morals?

Greetings!

So true, brother!

I was talking with a friend about this kind of stuff right here. People that have morals and self-discipline often tend towards living lives that are considered by many to be structured, routine, and boring. As I told my friend though, in the long run, they are happier, and have nothing to be ashamed of.

Scum like this, however, have lives filled with constant drama, bullshit, and emotional turmoil. So many people like these have lives that are absolute chaos and filled with pain, for everyone within reach. But, of course, these people always have a litany of excuses and rationale for why none of the pain, chaos, and bullshit in their lives is ever their fault--no, it's always everyone else's fault. These people never seem to come to grips with their own deep-seated immorality, their own corruption, their selfishness, and terrible judgment.

Watch them wallow and choke on shit. Their lives are an endless cycle of bullshit. Ever notice how all of their lovers and so many of their friends and social circles are the same as them?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hi SHARK!

True, true brother, they claim the structure is oppressive and immoral but the truth is they only want the freedom to wallow in their filth and to have the world shower them with "Stunning & Brave!" awards.

Guess I should thank them tho, they managed to make me find my faith again.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shasarak on April 06, 2021, 09:31:48 PM
Feels like you're a hair away from telling them to accept Christ.

Its worse then that, to accept Jordan Peterson.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Pat on April 06, 2021, 09:44:08 PM
Feels like you're a hair away from telling them to accept Christ.

Its worse then that, to accept Jordan Peterson.
Captain America will kick his ass. (https://www.themarysue.com/jordan-peterson-red-skull-ta-nehisi-coates-captain-america/)
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 09:47:49 PM
Feels like you're a hair away from telling them to accept Christ.

Its worse then that, to accept Jordan Peterson.

Awful. At least Christ is real.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on April 06, 2021, 10:05:20 PM
So a year ago i met Olivia...

Sounds like a game session played at a gamestore by modern players.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shasarak on April 06, 2021, 10:25:12 PM
Feels like you're a hair away from telling them to accept Christ.

Its worse then that, to accept Jordan Peterson.
Captain America will kick his ass. (https://www.themarysue.com/jordan-peterson-red-skull-ta-nehisi-coates-captain-america/)

Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 06, 2021, 10:40:17 PM
I believe it bears repeating that it is truly a sign of our times that one of the most hated men in America is a liberal guy who thinks people need to show some fucking personal responsibility for a change.

Clown world.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 10:46:23 PM
I dunno if it does bear repeating, seems redundant.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 12:39:44 AM
I believe it bears repeating that it is truly a sign of our times that one of the most hated men in America is a liberal guy who thinks people need to show some fucking personal responsibility for a change.

Clown world.

"Liberal" for a definition of Liberal that includes saying that "truthfully telling the Nazis where the Jews are hiding," is a higher good than "lying to the Nazis to save someone's life," yes. He's a truly old-school Liberal.

Not that Peterson, unlike Hill, actually has anything to do with any Role-playing Games.

Actually, I find it odd that people who indulge in what is probably the first fully post-modern hobby (rpg's) are so enamored of a guy who believes that the entire postmodern endeavor is a crock.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 01:13:38 AM
Actually, I find it odd that people who indulge in what is probably the first fully post-modern hobby (rpg's) are so enamored of a guy who believes that the entire postmodern endeavor is a crock.

He literally tells you to face your Dragons, which is the literally the name of the game.

But yeah other then that.  ::)
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 01:16:58 AM
Actually, I find it odd that people who indulge in what is probably the first fully post-modern hobby (rpg's) are so enamored of a guy who believes that the entire postmodern endeavor is a crock.

He literally tells you to face your Dragons, which is the literally the name of the game.

But yeah other then that.  ::)

He may literally say "Face your dragons", but I'm sure he means it figuratively, and from what I've seen of the man he would certainly disapprove of you getting together with a bunch of friends to slay those dragons over pizza and Diet Coke.   ;D
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 01:22:07 AM
I believe it bears repeating that it is truly a sign of our times that one of the most hated men in America is a liberal guy who thinks people need to show some fucking personal responsibility for a change.

Clown world.

"Liberal" for a definition of Liberal that includes saying that "truthfully telling the Nazis where the Jews are hiding," is a higher good than "lying to the Nazis to save someone's life," yes. He's a truly old-school Liberal.

Not that Peterson, unlike Hill, actually has anything to do with any Role-playing Games.

Actually, I find it odd that people who indulge in what is probably the first fully post-modern hobby (rpg's) are so enamored of a guy who believes that the entire postmodern endeavor is a crock.

Source for where he said that?

Define postmodernism?

Prove TTRPGs ARE postmodernist.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/postmodernism-philosophy (https://www.britannica.com/topic/postmodernism-philosophy)
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 01:30:42 AM
Actually, I find it odd that people who indulge in what is probably the first fully post-modern hobby (rpg's) are so enamored of a guy who believes that the entire postmodern endeavor is a crock.

He literally tells you to face your Dragons, which is the literally the name of the game.

But yeah other then that.  ::)

He may literally say "Face your dragons", but I'm sure he means it figuratively, and from what I've seen of the man he would certainly disapprove of you getting together with a bunch of friends to slay those dragons over pizza and Diet Coke.   ;D

From what you have seen of Jordan Peterson you have concluded that he hates when people get together with their friends to slay dragons over pizza and diet coke?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 01:41:47 AM
Prove TTRPGs ARE postmodernist.

I think he must be talking about post modernist TTRPG elements like making Black People into Orcs, taking away XP rewards and eliminating Alignment.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 01:42:55 AM
Prove TTRPGs ARE postmodernist.

I think he must be talking about post modernist TTRPG elements like making Black People into Orcs, taking away XP rewards and eliminating Alignment.

So he means TTRPGs made by those who hate Peterson?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 01:53:26 AM
Setting aside more explicitly pomo games like Unknown Armies you do get games built around the interpretation of arbitrary mathematical formula into descriptions of fictitious world events based on equally arbitrary formula sets, the authority of which is not objective but agreed upon or changed at will by the group. DMs exist as a locus of control but their authority lacks any intrinsic center beyond that established by the group by whatever means they find appropriate. The books give some element of authority but often undermine their own authority either through the explicit inclusion of rule zero or the implicit inclusion of house ruling.

But yeah also no alignments.

Edit: And to be clear this response doesn't include the shit you'd call story-games where the point is to reduce the authority of the DM or eliminate altogether, this is just a description of basic-ass D&D.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Reckall on April 07, 2021, 06:04:06 AM
I have two immediate questions here:

A) Is any of these characters out of middle school?

B) We should care about this litany... why?


You shouldn't really, but if we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do

I want to clarify that with B) I meant "Why all of this is considered worthy enough to be inflicted on the internet at large by this Francita gal?"

I had my ups and downs in my sentimental life - more than other people I know. Each one of them was different but they all shared a key commonality: Not one of them ever made me think "Hey! The World must just know about this private brouhaha of mine!"

I guess that depends on how much you feel like not saying shit will lead to something similar happening to another coworker of the accused further down line. If you don't, it's all nonsense. If you do, you can still def question the approach for sure.
The point is "The accused". Where is her possibility to defend herself and maybe to point out lies and inaccuracies? For what we know, she simply had the decency to keep private a, you know, private matter - instead of trying to elicit sympathy via "Sigh, sob, I behaved stupidly ---> Truth is: she was the real evil person."

According to this Francita gal, she traveled to the United States only to discover there that she couldn't enter the country? For real, in this day and age?! And if she couldn't see Olivia in the USA, where they were conducting their relationship? In a neutral third country? Sorry, but things just don't add up.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Slipshot762 on April 07, 2021, 07:24:14 AM
The problem i see is the larp aspect, the i want to be with you and have a relationship crap, wouldnt happen if everyone was honest from the start; uh no i dont want to be with you, i want to clock in, bend your fat ass over that potted plant, toss you a 50 gold bonus for the ona-hole damage, and go home to my wife, an actual lady who deserves respect and is far too classy to bend over that potted plant like the goat milking peasant trash hole that you are, girl.

If you were honest from the start about that she likely would not have given you potted plant noogy in the first place because you are a brash caustic heartless bastard that clearly sees her as a piece of meat to be chewed on and far below the station of his wife, a proper lady fair enough to have babies with, whereas she is little better than livestock or one of those wall mounted blow dryers.

I will now have sex with all the attractive women on earth using only the power of my mind, and no one can stop me.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Snark Knight on April 07, 2021, 08:41:26 AM
So... why did their dirty laundry need airing in public again?

Attention and sympathy obviously, but otherwise...?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: wmarshal on April 07, 2021, 09:14:36 AM
So... why did their dirty laundry need airing in public again?

Attention and sympathy obviously, but otherwise...?
To be Woke is to be virtuous, and if one is virtuous then one must warn others about Hill’s bad behavior. I think that’s the rationale used. It was her duty to out Hill as abusive. Never mind her own messed up behavior that anyone with common sense would understand not lead to anything good.

It’s very similar to the message published by Eron Gjoni about Zoe Quinn. Eron was trashed by the Woke because Zoe fit into a more oppressed class in the stack. I have no idea how these two will be sorted through the Woke’s stack of oppression, and probably won’t be worth the time. Hill is not as important to the Woke as Zoe was so there’s a decent chance this won’t be viewed as slut shaming and harassment.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 09:44:16 AM
I have two immediate questions here:

A) Is any of these characters out of middle school?

B) We should care about this litany... why?


You shouldn't really, but if we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do

I want to clarify that with B) I meant "Why all of this is considered worthy enough to be inflicted on the internet at large by this Francita gal?"

I had my ups and downs in my sentimental life - more than other people I know. Each one of them was different but they all shared a key commonality: Not one of them ever made me think "Hey! The World must just know about this private brouhaha of mine!"

I guess that depends on how much you feel like not saying shit will lead to something similar happening to another coworker of the accused further down line. If you don't, it's all nonsense. If you do, you can still def question the approach for sure.
The point is "The accused". Where is her possibility to defend herself and maybe to point out lies and inaccuracies? For what we know, she simply had the decency to keep private a, you know, private matter - instead of trying to elicit sympathy via "Sigh, sob, I behaved stupidly ---> Truth is: she was the real evil person."

According to this Francita gal, she traveled to the United States only to discover there that she couldn't enter the country? For real, in this day and age?! And if she couldn't see Olivia in the USA, where they were conducting their relationship? In a neutral third country? Sorry, but things just don't add up.

People not doing their research and finding mistakes too late is like the most believable thing there is. It's so believable people don't like to believe it even in Current Year. Who knows for the accused, ten'll get you five more's forthcoming.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:59:18 AM
So... why did their dirty laundry need airing in public again?

Attention and sympathy obviously, but otherwise...?

These neo-Cathars have a religion of sin without forgiveness.  Only the Pure enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 10:02:31 AM
So... why did their dirty laundry need airing in public again?

Attention and sympathy obviously, but otherwise...?

These neo-Cathars have a religion of sin without forgiveness.  Only the Pure enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Look we're drifting more secular and all that Great Awakening energy had to go somewhere. You want it back?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: wmarshal on April 07, 2021, 10:28:58 AM
So... why did their dirty laundry need airing in public again?

Attention and sympathy obviously, but otherwise...?

These neo-Cathars have a religion of sin without forgiveness.  Only the Pure enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Look we're drifting more secular and all that Great Awakening energy had to go somewhere. You want it back?
It might be better if that energy was funneled through religion. In the States at least there is no Church, just 100,000 different churches that helps limit the momentum this puritanism can use. We have thousands of years of history with religions attempting to establish Heaven on Earth, yet always failing, often spectacularly and with much bloodshed. And with each failing I believe the religions come to accept more and more the futility of such endeavors. Some attempts still get made, but with less enthusiasm and effect than before generally speaking.

With the secular attempts to establish Year 0 (or whatever they want to call their version of Heaven on Earth) they don’t have as long a history of failure to inform them of their futility. The secularists are quite adept at dismissing prior failures (“that wasn’t real communism” tried over in the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Cuba, Nicaragua, Romania, East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Albania, Yugoslavia, Angola, etc.), because apparently it takes humans thousands of years to abandon any kind of idealism that takes hold.

We have language and experience that lets most of us deal properly with religious cults. We have means to limit their damage, help members escape cults, know to treat them with caution. They can still do incredible damage, but Jim Jones was never going to take over the US with his lunacy. With secular cults, some of us are just now learning that such things exist, and we haven’t developed the tools and understanding to deal with secular cults.

The danger of secularism running amok like a maniac with scissors is not entirely new to us. Edmund Burke saw from the beginning that the French Revolution was going to end in a bloody disaster. But as a whole I think we’re behind the curve in dealing with secular cults compared to religious cults.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Reckall on April 07, 2021, 10:35:00 AM
I have two immediate questions here:

A) Is any of these characters out of middle school?

B) We should care about this litany... why?


You shouldn't really, but if we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do

I want to clarify that with B) I meant "Why all of this is considered worthy enough to be inflicted on the internet at large by this Francita gal?"

I had my ups and downs in my sentimental life - more than other people I know. Each one of them was different but they all shared a key commonality: Not one of them ever made me think "Hey! The World must just know about this private brouhaha of mine!"

I guess that depends on how much you feel like not saying shit will lead to something similar happening to another coworker of the accused further down line. If you don't, it's all nonsense. If you do, you can still def question the approach for sure.
The point is "The accused". Where is her possibility to defend herself and maybe to point out lies and inaccuracies? For what we know, she simply had the decency to keep private a, you know, private matter - instead of trying to elicit sympathy via "Sigh, sob, I behaved stupidly ---> Truth is: she was the real evil person."

According to this Francita gal, she traveled to the United States only to discover there that she couldn't enter the country? For real, in this day and age?! And if she couldn't see Olivia in the USA, where they were conducting their relationship? In a neutral third country? Sorry, but things just don't add up.

People not doing their research and finding mistakes too late is like the most believable thing there is. It's so believable people don't like to believe it even in Current Year. Who knows for the accused, ten'll get you five more's forthcoming.

Did she "find about her mistake too late", then, because the marriage-shattering relationship was, up to that point, internet-only?  :o
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 10:44:48 AM
Who fuckin knows? She's on the twitters, go ask her and then we can continue gossiping like old maids.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: wmarshal on April 07, 2021, 11:31:33 AM
Keeping account of the failures of the Woke has its value. Similar to how pointing out the failures of the televangelists back in the 80s and 90s. Televangelists are still around, but they seem to have less clout than they used to because they were shown to have feet of clay. Hill at least used to be considered somewhat prominent among the gaming Woke. Taking him down a notch similar to what occurred to Graham, Roberts and Baker is not a bad thing. Admittedly Hill never had their influence on society as a whole, but he is/was a player in the gaming space. I doubt we’ll ever know with the certainty of a court ruling that his accuser is not stretching facts, but that if she’s making up wholesale lies that might come back to bite her.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: wmarshal on April 07, 2021, 11:32:49 AM
On the other hand, no I don’t think the airing of these kind of private affairs is healthy, but this milk is already spilt so to speak.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 11:38:21 AM
Keeping account of the failures of the Woke has its value. Similar to how pointing out the failures of the televangelists back in the 80s and 90s. Televangelists are still around, but they seem to have less clout than they used to because they were shown to have feet of clay. Hill at least used to be considered somewhat prominent among the gaming Woke. Taking him down a notch similar to what occurred to Graham, Roberts and Baker is not a bad thing. Admittedly Hill never had their influence on society as a whole, but he is/was a player in the gaming space. I doubt we’ll ever know with the certainty of a court ruling that his accuser is not stretching facts, but that if she’s making up wholesale lies that might come back to bite her.

On the other hand, no I don’t think the airing of these kind of private affairs is healthy, but this milk is already spilt so to speak.

Yeah it's a pickle. If I may stop trolling for a sec I have been in a situation where I had to assist someone in making this kind of accusation and the amount of effort made in presenting evidence and making sure context was clear in hours of message transcripts which were the only way to ensure it was useful. I ain't see that kind of effort here.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 07, 2021, 11:43:00 AM
I would feel more sympathy if the wokeists hadn't made a habit of airing dirty laundry (or even deliberately misrepresenting such) in order to 'cancel' people.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 02:06:51 PM
I love how some of you folks are trying to interpret my maundering from just before bed.

So, confession time, I don't know a great deal about Jordan B. Peterson, but I have read some of his written material, including abstracts from his books as well as what I believe are even-handed reviews of his positions. I tried to listen to one of his youtube videos once, but he was off on a Gish Gallop so quickly that I gave up after the third time I yelled at the screen, "You need to unpack that!"

For background on me, my training on Modernity, Postmodern thought, and Radical Orthodoxy is from the point of view of Theology, which will make pure philosophers cringe, but whatever. So here goes:

Peterson has made comments like "I am a classic British Liberal" and "I admire Kant's approach to ethics", which seem innocuous enough, bit of name dropping, but whatever. Until you realize that Kant's Critique of Pure Reason includes an argument that is structured as follows:

"If a man comes to you and hides in your house from his mortal enemy, and his mortal enemy comes to you and asks where the man is so that he can kill him, what should you do? The answer is to give the first man to the second man. After all, you cannot be sure that the second man will kill the first, but you *can* be sure that you will be falling into error by lying."

The simple argument (elementary, trivial, and obvious) extending "a man" to  "a Jew" and "his mortal enemy" to  "the Nazis" gives you my statement.  (8th of his 12 rules)

So, then what about Peterson and dragon slaying?

The key is not the pizza and diet coke. The key is that you are gathering with friends. "You must slay your own dragons", right? All of Peterson's work is concentrated on the individual, and to be blunt, himself and his own place in the world. Friends are defined by their utility to the person, not for their own selves. If someone else is getting more out of an experience than you are, you need adjust things either up or down so you are either equal or ahead. I freely admit that I may be extending Peterson's argument beyond his actual intent based on arguments that his fanboys have made, but that is the gist of what I get from him.

Which brings me around to Postmodernism and what I mean by it.

The Modern project is based around an examination of the relationship between the Self and the Universal. The Enlightenment kicked off modern thought by trying to reject claims to particularity and set up a Universal Truth, whether empirical (based on observation) or rational (based on internal thoughts). But as time wore on, it became evident that Truth -- with a capital T -- was harder to pin down than that. Kant tried, the Existentialists tried, modern theologians tried (much as I love Karl Barth, it's clear that he's preaching to the choir), but it became clearer and clearer that rather than Truth, what the Modern project was uncovering was Utility. There are folks who have embraced that, and late-stage Modernity still rolls on around us, seeking out what will give us the most useful stuff, or the theories that will prove the most useful in predicting phenomena.

Postmodernism discovered that Modernity had turned to utility and rejected that. The postmodern effort has been described as "a radical turn to the Subject" where all that is important is the self -- "If it feels good, do it!" is a postmodern slogan. The key to understanding postmodern stuff is to understand that in the postmodern view there is no objective or universal truth, there is only lived experience. 

One of the tools of the postmodern effort, in fact it's primary tool in postmodern Theology, is the small group. People gather together, hopefully with a variety of backgrounds but a common theme, and discuss their personal experiences and explore both their own and each other's interior life around that theme. The lived and shared experience is the point of the exercise, but those experiences then can be shared with others to form a cascade of understanding other people's experiences and perhaps seeing things outside yourself and your experiences and incorporating them into your own world.

Small groups/breakout groups in meetings are a postmodern thing. AA (and it's relatives) uses postmodern methods. And RPGs are the first form of entertainment where you explore the shared experiences of beings that not only don't exist, but that you crated within the small group of (hopefully!) friends so that you can entertain yourselves and tell stories about your experiences later -- I call that a truly postmodern endeavor and hobby.

Of course, that also means that catpissman telling you about his character in the local gaming store is expressing a high form of self-actualization. ( :P )
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 02:17:48 PM
Of course, that also means that catpissman telling you about his character in the local gaming store is expressing a high form of self-actualization. ( :P )

Don't fucking remind me. Catpissman doesn't even do that in the gaming store anymore, he got a Patreon for his liveplay podcast and is making fifty bucks a month for it, which is fifty bucks more than he ought to for all those years of tedium.

It's a decently benign description of postmodernism, which means it's a terrible one because it isn't an insidious plot to destroy knowledge or God or whatever authoritative center the aggrieved poster holds very dear to their heart.

Fuckin irony is that some storygames try to recenter the text as primary authority - lookin at PbtA games over here - and try to reModernize themselves, but get marked as pomo nonsense.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Mistwell on April 07, 2021, 02:28:59 PM
I have two immediate questions here:

A) Is any of these characters out of middle school?

B) We should care about this litany... why?


This was my reaction as well. I know nothing about the people involved with this. I get there are some gender and sexual preference complications with parsing the series of events. But the bottom line is two consenting adults had a relationship which didn't work out. Everyone went into the relationship knowing the basic score on who was otherwise attached to whom and made a choice to pursue a relationship in those circumstances anyway. And it just didn't work out and pretty ordinary relationship-level fibs were told before it all blew up in pretty stereotypical ways.

It's irresponsible and petty and unprofessional to be posting about it publicly. You talk about this to your close friends. You have a drink and you bitch about your evil ex and you get over it. You don't publicly drag names through the mud because you're pissed at your ex. There is no genuine "protecting unknown strangers from this evil person" because nobody was "lured" into some relationship without knowing the score in advance. It's not like the existing establish relationships with others were hidden and you're informing others to beware of that hidden important knowledge. You took a risk on a relationship, knowing the risks going in, and it didn't go as planned. It happens to most people.

Go get drunk or shop or whatever comfort habit your friends use to work out issues and call them names to your sympathizing friends. That process has worked for thousands of years, and it still works well now. I am sure ancient Romans got drunk or shopped for amphoras or whatever and bitched about their lying ex to get over a relationship that didn't work out too. My guess is few would hire a town crier to spread that gossip publicly, and it was probably looked down on poorly then too.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Reckall on April 07, 2021, 02:37:32 PM
I love how some of you folks are trying to interpret my maundering from just before bed.

So, confession time, I don't know a great deal about Jordan B. Peterson, but I have read some of his written material, including abstracts from his books as well as what I believe are even-handed reviews of his positions. I tried to listen to one of his youtube videos once, but he was off on a Gish Gallop so quickly that I gave up after the third time I yelled at the screen, "You need to unpack that!"

For background on me, my training on Modernity, Postmodern thought, and Radical Orthodoxy is from the point of view of Theology, which will make pure philosophers cringe, but whatever. So here goes:

Peterson has made comments like "I am a classic British Liberal" and "I admire Kant's approach to ethics", which seem innocuous enough, bit of name dropping, but whatever. Until you realize that Kant's Critique of Pure Reason includes an argument that is structured as follows:

"If a man comes to you and hides in your house from his mortal enemy, and his mortal enemy comes to you and asks where the man is so that he can kill him, what should you do? The answer is to give the first man to the second man. After all, you cannot be sure that the second man will kill the first, but you *can* be sure that you will be falling into error by lying."

The simple argument (elementary, trivial, and obvious) extending "a man" to  "a Jew" and "his mortal enemy" to  "the Nazis" gives you my statement.  (8th of his 12 rules)

So, then what about Peterson and dragon slaying?

The key is not the pizza and diet coke. The key is that you are gathering with friends. "You must slay your own dragons", right? All of Peterson's work is concentrated on the individual, and to be blunt, himself and his own place in the world. Friends are defined by their utility to the person, not for their own selves. If someone else is getting more out of an experience than you are, you need adjust things either up or down so you are either equal or ahead. I freely admit that I may be extending Peterson's argument beyond his actual intent based on arguments that his fanboys have made, but that is the gist of what I get from him.

Which brings me around to Postmodernism and what I mean by it.

The Modern project is based around an examination of the relationship between the Self and the Universal. The Enlightenment kicked off modern thought by trying to reject claims to particularity and set up a Universal Truth, whether empirical (based on observation) or rational (based on internal thoughts). But as time wore on, it became evident that Truth -- with a capital T -- was harder to pin down than that. Kant tried, the Existentialists tried, modern theologians tried (much as I love Karl Barth, it's clear that he's preaching to the choir), but it became clearer and clearer that rather than Truth, what the Modern project was uncovering was Utility. There are folks who have embraced that, and late-stage Modernity still rolls on around us, seeking out what will give us the most useful stuff, or the theories that will prove the most useful in predicting phenomena.

Postmodernism discovered that Modernity had turned to utility and rejected that. The postmodern effort has been described as "a radical turn to the Subject" where all that is important is the self -- "If it feels good, do it!" is a postmodern slogan. The key to understanding postmodern stuff is to understand that in the postmodern view there is no objective or universal truth, there is only lived experience. 

One of the tools of the postmodern effort, in fact it's primary tool in postmodern Theology, is the small group. People gather together, hopefully with a variety of backgrounds but a common theme, and discuss their personal experiences and explore both their own and each other's interior life around that theme. The lived and shared experience is the point of the exercise, but those experiences then can be shared with others to form a cascade of understanding other people's experiences and perhaps seeing things outside yourself and your experiences and incorporating them into your own world.

Small groups/breakout groups in meetings are a postmodern thing. AA (and it's relatives) uses postmodern methods. And RPGs are the first form of entertainment where you explore the shared experiences of beings that not only don't exist, but that you crated within the small group of (hopefully!) friends so that you can entertain yourselves and tell stories about your experiences later -- I call that a truly postmodern endeavor and hobby.

Of course, that also means that catpissman telling you about his character in the local gaming store is expressing a high form of self-actualization. ( :P )

...

          ....

  ..
           ........

    .........

...

(https://i1.wp.com/breannahayse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/big-bang-theory-penny-WHAT-gif.gif?fit=500%2C252)
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 02:39:33 PM

...

          ....

  ..
           ........

    .........

...

(https://i1.wp.com/breannahayse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/big-bang-theory-penny-WHAT-gif.gif?fit=500%2C252)

Hey, they asked.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Valatar on April 07, 2021, 03:18:17 PM

This was my reaction as well. I know nothing about the people involved with this. I get there are some gender and sexual preference complications with parsing the series of events. But the bottom line is two consenting adults had a relationship which didn't work out. Everyone went into the relationship knowing the basic score on who was otherwise attached to whom and made a choice to pursue a relationship in those circumstances anyway. And it just didn't work out and pretty ordinary relationship-level fibs were told before it all blew up in pretty stereotypical ways.

The issue, as far as ethical considerations go, is that Hill was this woman's boss.  And was apparently trying to pressure the wife into accepting a side piece, while said side piece was thinking she was going to get equal billing with the wife.  Aside from that, yes, it does involve a bunch of adults who were not breaking laws.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Snark Knight on April 07, 2021, 04:16:11 PM
So... why did their dirty laundry need airing in public again?

Attention and sympathy obviously, but otherwise...?

These neo-Cathars have a religion of sin without forgiveness.  Only the Pure enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Their sainthood is being turned into a Funko Pop.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
I love how some of you folks are trying to interpret my maundering from just before bed.

So, confession time, I don't know a great deal about Jordan B. Peterson, but I have read some of his written material, including abstracts from his books as well as what I believe are even-handed reviews of his positions. I tried to listen to one of his youtube videos once, but he was off on a Gish Gallop so quickly that I gave up after the third time I yelled at the screen, "You need to unpack that!"

For background on me, my training on Modernity, Postmodern thought, and Radical Orthodoxy is from the point of view of Theology, which will make pure philosophers cringe, but whatever. So here goes:

Peterson has made comments like "I am a classic British Liberal" and "I admire Kant's approach to ethics", which seem innocuous enough, bit of name dropping, but whatever. Until you realize that Kant's Critique of Pure Reason includes an argument that is structured as follows:

"If a man comes to you and hides in your house from his mortal enemy, and his mortal enemy comes to you and asks where the man is so that he can kill him, what should you do? The answer is to give the first man to the second man. After all, you cannot be sure that the second man will kill the first, but you *can* be sure that you will be falling into error by lying."

The simple argument (elementary, trivial, and obvious) extending "a man" to  "a Jew" and "his mortal enemy" to  "the Nazis" gives you my statement.  (8th of his 12 rules)

So, then what about Peterson and dragon slaying?

The key is not the pizza and diet coke. The key is that you are gathering with friends. "You must slay your own dragons", right? All of Peterson's work is concentrated on the individual, and to be blunt, himself and his own place in the world. Friends are defined by their utility to the person, not for their own selves. If someone else is getting more out of an experience than you are, you need adjust things either up or down so you are either equal or ahead. I freely admit that I may be extending Peterson's argument beyond his actual intent based on arguments that his fanboys have made, but that is the gist of what I get from him.

Which brings me around to Postmodernism and what I mean by it.

The Modern project is based around an examination of the relationship between the Self and the Universal. The Enlightenment kicked off modern thought by trying to reject claims to particularity and set up a Universal Truth, whether empirical (based on observation) or rational (based on internal thoughts). But as time wore on, it became evident that Truth -- with a capital T -- was harder to pin down than that. Kant tried, the Existentialists tried, modern theologians tried (much as I love Karl Barth, it's clear that he's preaching to the choir), but it became clearer and clearer that rather than Truth, what the Modern project was uncovering was Utility. There are folks who have embraced that, and late-stage Modernity still rolls on around us, seeking out what will give us the most useful stuff, or the theories that will prove the most useful in predicting phenomena.

Postmodernism discovered that Modernity had turned to utility and rejected that. The postmodern effort has been described as "a radical turn to the Subject" where all that is important is the self -- "If it feels good, do it!" is a postmodern slogan. The key to understanding postmodern stuff is to understand that in the postmodern view there is no objective or universal truth, there is only lived experience. 

One of the tools of the postmodern effort, in fact it's primary tool in postmodern Theology, is the small group. People gather together, hopefully with a variety of backgrounds but a common theme, and discuss their personal experiences and explore both their own and each other's interior life around that theme. The lived and shared experience is the point of the exercise, but those experiences then can be shared with others to form a cascade of understanding other people's experiences and perhaps seeing things outside yourself and your experiences and incorporating them into your own world.

Small groups/breakout groups in meetings are a postmodern thing. AA (and it's relatives) uses postmodern methods. And RPGs are the first form of entertainment where you explore the shared experiences of beings that not only don't exist, but that you crated within the small group of (hopefully!) friends so that you can entertain yourselves and tell stories about your experiences later -- I call that a truly postmodern endeavor and hobby.

Of course, that also means that catpissman telling you about his character in the local gaming store is expressing a high form of self-actualization. ( :P )

In short you know jack shit about the man and are relying on 3rd person accounts.

You're aware you can admire someone whitout agreeing with him?

I gave you a definition of postmodernism thought, where in your ramblings does that remotely apply to TTRPGs?

Nowhere, but of course you have your personal redefinition so you're never wrong.

That's very postmodernist of you.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 04:25:51 PM
...

          ....

  ..
           ........

    .........

...

...

          ....

  ..
           ........

    .........

...

(https://i1.wp.com/breannahayse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/big-bang-theory-penny-WHAT-gif.gif?fit=500%2C252)

Exactly, very postmodernist to answer to concise questions with an incomprensible wordsalad.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 04:35:28 PM
Hey, they asked.

You blew it by not referring back to his Britannica link which said all the same shit but came from a source he found authoritative. I wouldn't worry about it he's a found again man of faith by his own estimation so you'd never get him past the issue of lack of god for a moral center.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 04:42:04 PM

In short you know jack shit about the man and are relying on 3rd person accounts.

You're aware you can admire someone whitout agreeing with him?

I gave you a definition of postmodernism thought, where in your ramblings does that remotely apply to TTRPGs?

Nowhere, but of course you have your personal redefinition so you're never wrong.

That's very postmodernist of you.

You asked. I answered. Not my problem that you didn't like what I said. That's very premodern of me.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 04:44:55 PM
For background on me, my training on Modernity, Postmodern thought, and Radical Orthodoxy is from the point of view of Theology, which will make pure philosophers cringe, but whatever. So here goes:

Peterson has made comments like "I am a classic British Liberal" and "I admire Kant's approach to ethics", which seem innocuous enough, bit of name dropping, but whatever. Until you realize that Kant's Critique of Pure Reason includes an argument that is structured as follows:

"If a man comes to you and hides in your house from his mortal enemy, and his mortal enemy comes to you and asks where the man is so that he can kill him, what should you do? The answer is to give the first man to the second man. After all, you cannot be sure that the second man will kill the first, but you *can* be sure that you will be falling into error by lying."

The simple argument (elementary, trivial, and obvious) extending "a man" to  "a Jew" and "his mortal enemy" to  "the Nazis" gives you my statement.  (8th of his 12 rules)

So, then what about Peterson and dragon slaying?

The key is not the pizza and diet coke. The key is that you are gathering with friends. "You must slay your own dragons", right? All of Peterson's work is concentrated on the individual, and to be blunt, himself and his own place in the world. Friends are defined by their utility to the person, not for their own selves. If someone else is getting more out of an experience than you are, you need adjust things either up or down so you are either equal or ahead. I freely admit that I may be extending Peterson's argument beyond his actual intent based on arguments that his fanboys have made, but that is the gist of what I get from him.

Which brings me around to Postmodernism and what I mean by it.

The Modern project is based around an examination of the relationship between the Self and the Universal. The Enlightenment kicked off modern thought by trying to reject claims to particularity and set up a Universal Truth, whether empirical (based on observation) or rational (based on internal thoughts). But as time wore on, it became evident that Truth -- with a capital T -- was harder to pin down than that. Kant tried, the Existentialists tried, modern theologians tried (much as I love Karl Barth, it's clear that he's preaching to the choir), but it became clearer and clearer that rather than Truth, what the Modern project was uncovering was Utility. There are folks who have embraced that, and late-stage Modernity still rolls on around us, seeking out what will give us the most useful stuff, or the theories that will prove the most useful in predicting phenomena.

Postmodernism discovered that Modernity had turned to utility and rejected that. The postmodern effort has been described as "a radical turn to the Subject" where all that is important is the self -- "If it feels good, do it!" is a postmodern slogan. The key to understanding postmodern stuff is to understand that in the postmodern view there is no objective or universal truth, there is only lived experience. 

One of the tools of the postmodern effort, in fact it's primary tool in postmodern Theology, is the small group. People gather together, hopefully with a variety of backgrounds but a common theme, and discuss their personal experiences and explore both their own and each other's interior life around that theme. The lived and shared experience is the point of the exercise, but those experiences then can be shared with others to form a cascade of understanding other people's experiences and perhaps seeing things outside yourself and your experiences and incorporating them into your own world.

Small groups/breakout groups in meetings are a postmodern thing. AA (and it's relatives) uses postmodern methods. And RPGs are the first form of entertainment where you explore the shared experiences of beings that not only don't exist, but that you crated within the small group of (hopefully!) friends so that you can entertain yourselves and tell stories about your experiences later -- I call that a truly postmodern endeavor and hobby.

Of course, that also means that catpissman telling you about his character in the local gaming store is expressing a high form of self-actualization. ( :P )

Well that explains a lot.  No wonder you imagine that Jordan Peterson would be against gathering with your friends to fight Dragons.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: yabaziou on April 07, 2021, 05:08:06 PM
I cannot wait the cancellation of Olivia Hill. She will be in such good company : Zak S, Adam Koebel, Luke Crane, and many others who will be gladly forgotten. Justice can be like poetry !
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 05:17:40 PM
Largely disconnected from contemporary audiences?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 05:23:16 PM

Well that explains a lot.  No wonder you imagine that Jordan Peterson would be against gathering with your friends to fight Dragons.

Of course, he might see roleplaying games as being in the "petting cats" category, too. I dunno.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Mistwell on April 07, 2021, 05:50:58 PM

This was my reaction as well. I know nothing about the people involved with this. I get there are some gender and sexual preference complications with parsing the series of events. But the bottom line is two consenting adults had a relationship which didn't work out. Everyone went into the relationship knowing the basic score on who was otherwise attached to whom and made a choice to pursue a relationship in those circumstances anyway. And it just didn't work out and pretty ordinary relationship-level fibs were told before it all blew up in pretty stereotypical ways.

The issue, as far as ethical considerations go, is that Hill was this woman's boss.  And was apparently trying to pressure the wife into accepting a side piece, while said side piece was thinking she was going to get equal billing with the wife.  Aside from that, yes, it does involve a bunch of adults who were not breaking laws.

I know the allegation is one was the boss of the other, but I am not finding confirmation of that anywhere? Are you sure it wasn't just a contractor relationship, business-wise, or are you sure it was an employer/employee relationship?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 06:05:42 PM
I know the allegation is one was the boss of the other, but I am not finding confirmation of that anywhere? Are you sure it wasn't just a contractor relationship, business-wise, or are you sure it was an employer/employee relationship?

From the first post:
Quote
But i can tell you that for a time i was really fucking scared of things not working out between the three of us because there was work involved. Money. Money I could depend on. Luckily i have commissions going on now that i can say that is not a.concern anymore.

hope that helped
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 06:18:37 PM

Well that explains a lot.  No wonder you imagine that Jordan Peterson would be against gathering with your friends to fight Dragons.

Of course, he might see roleplaying games as being in the "petting cats" category, too. I dunno.

That fits your train of logic I guess.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on April 07, 2021, 06:24:41 PM
I know the allegation is one was the boss of the other, but I am not finding confirmation of that anywhere? Are you sure it wasn't just a contractor relationship, business-wise, or are you sure it was an employer/employee relationship?

I'm not sure if there's a meaningful ethical distinction between the two, in this context. Once one person's income depends on satisfying the contractual requirements of the other, introducing any sexual intimacy into that relationship runs the twin risks of either subordinating the sexual relationship to the contractual one (which makes the intimacy itself into essentially a mode of prostitution) or subordinating the contractual relationship to the sexual one (which makes it incredibly easy for one partner to exploit the other economically).

When that sexual relationship itself is further established by explicitly waiving the normal reinforcement and protection of exclusivity, that only increases the general instability and unreliability of the whole situation. Non-exclusive polyamory usually makes the mistake of assuming that all partners involved can and will maintain a fixed emotional state about their arrangement, and that any change in emotional state requires changes to the arrangement. This is not a recipe for commitment and security.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Mistwell on April 07, 2021, 06:40:59 PM
I know the allegation is one was the boss of the other, but I am not finding confirmation of that anywhere? Are you sure it wasn't just a contractor relationship, business-wise, or are you sure it was an employer/employee relationship?

From the first post:
Quote
But i can tell you that for a time i was really fucking scared of things not working out between the three of us because there was work involved. Money. Money I could depend on. Luckily i have commissions going on now that i can say that is not a.concern anymore.


Right. That's not "employed" it's just "work involved. Money."

Given they're in Chile and the company is in the U.S., and they're normally a graphic design contractor, and they even mention they have commissions elsewhere, I strongly suspect this was not a Boss/Employee relationship but rather a contractor/contractee relationship. Which, to me, is meaningfully different. As a contractor, you're running your own business and it's a business-to-business relationship.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Mistwell on April 07, 2021, 06:55:45 PM
I know the allegation is one was the boss of the other, but I am not finding confirmation of that anywhere? Are you sure it wasn't just a contractor relationship, business-wise, or are you sure it was an employer/employee relationship?

I'm not sure if there's a meaningful ethical distinction between the two, in this context. Once one person's income depends on satisfying the contractual requirements of the other, introducing any sexual intimacy into that relationship runs the twin risks of either subordinating the sexual relationship to the contractual one (which makes the intimacy itself into essentially a mode of prostitution) or subordinating the contractual relationship to the sexual one (which makes it incredibly easy for one partner to exploit the other economically).

When that sexual relationship itself is further established by explicitly waiving the normal reinforcement and protection of exclusivity, that only increases the general instability and unreliability of the whole situation. Non-exclusive polyamory usually makes the mistake of assuming that all partners involved can and will maintain a fixed emotional state about their arrangement, and that any change in emotional state requires changes to the arrangement. This is not a recipe for commitment and security.

To me, it's a very meaningful difference. Each is a business. Each is choosing to do business with another business. But it's not an exclusive business relationship (and this person even says they have commissions existing from other clients). They were not even in the same nation apparently. I do not see any way this is covered by the various sexual harassment rules or laws with regard to the power relationship between a boss and a subordinate.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Hakdov on April 07, 2021, 09:44:30 PM
Games were better back when we didn't know or care who the designers were much less their personal life details. 
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Svenhelgrim on April 07, 2021, 10:24:52 PM
Trying...to...care...

UUUNNNNHH!

Nope.  Can’t do it.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 10:30:38 PM
Games were better back when we didn't know or care who the designers were much less their personal life details.

I mean sure but be real how many people here were playing iHunt.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Valatar on April 07, 2021, 11:19:13 PM
If your rent money is coming from a person, and they say, 'Hey, you wanna get dinner Friday?', I'm skeptical whether you technically being a contractor significantly alters the problem, even if it may change matters from a purely legal perspective.  While she seems to have other clients now, she must not have at the time, or else she wouldn't have mentioned worrying about the monetary repercussions.  I've done contracting work, and there were times where I would have been completely hosed if a large client had up and pulled the plug suddenly.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on April 08, 2021, 01:42:10 AM
I do not see any way this is covered by the various sexual harassment rules or laws with regard to the power relationship between a boss and a subordinate.

This particular situation isn't about harassment. Harassment occurs when one party is trying repeatedly to establish a sexual, or at the very least a sexualized, relationship with the other despite explicit rebuffing. In this case the relationship between the two primary actors began with mutual consent; my point is that that consent in itself doesn't automatically make it ethical.

For one thing, as noted in the original story, Hill was already committed and did not initially have any permission at all to seek outside activity, and enabling someone else's infidelity is still unethical, if not quite as bad as committing it oneself. For another, while sexual and economic relationships can coexist ethically between the same people, it generally requires explicit and formal commitments to achieve; when the topic deliberately goes unaddressed, it creates ambiguities and uncertainties that, even if not consciously exploited, can nonetheless undermine the relationship. (Consider, if nothing else, that asking someone about money he owes you can be a lot more fraught if you're already sleeping with him.)

The simple rules "Don't sleep with someone already involved with someone else", "Don't sleep with someone who owes you money unless you absolutely don't care about getting the money", and "Don't sleep with someone who isn't free and willing to commit their life to being your exclusive partner" would have prevented all the chaos outlined in the original post. That basic chastity covers all this is no coincidence.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: rocksfalleverybodydies on April 08, 2021, 02:05:43 AM
Games were better back when we didn't know or care who the designers were much less their personal life details.

Social media has warped many people's common sense so badly, I doubt the damage to society will ever be repairable.  It certainly hasn't helped the RPG hobby at all: just ends up with tribal mentality led by whomever shouts the loudest.

If people had the reserve to not feel compelled to publicly post private details of their lives, a lot of things would be a lot better.  Now every story is a drama for an empty theatre:  the actors on stage just don't realise it yet with the lights shining in their eyes.

<sp>
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on April 08, 2021, 02:10:37 AM
Each one of them was different but they all shared a key commonality: Not one of them ever made me think "Hey! The World must just know about this private brouhaha of mine!"
Did I ever tell you about this girl I dated whose nickname was Moose?

But yes: monogamy. Settle down with one person, treat them decently. Yes, it'd be fun to fuck other people. No, it's never worth it. Keep it in your pants.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Marchand on April 08, 2021, 04:04:09 AM
But yes: monogamy. Settle down with one person, treat them decently. Yes, it'd be fun to fuck other people. No, it's never worth it. Keep it in your pants.

QFT, as they used to say on the internet.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Omega on April 08, 2021, 04:17:33 AM
You shouldn't really, but if we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do

Problem is... These "others" have rather consistently proven to be either insane or crooks of some sort, sometimes both.
And in case you had not noticed. They have painted US as the others. Not the other way round.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Mistwell on April 08, 2021, 01:20:49 PM
I do not see any way this is covered by the various sexual harassment rules or laws with regard to the power relationship between a boss and a subordinate.

This particular situation isn't about harassment. Harassment occurs when one party is trying repeatedly to establish a sexual, or at the very least a sexualized, relationship with the other despite explicit rebuffing. In this case the relationship between the two primary actors began with mutual consent; my point is that that consent in itself doesn't automatically make it ethical.

For one thing, as noted in the original story, Hill was already committed and did not initially have any permission at all to seek outside activity, and enabling someone else's infidelity is still unethical, if not quite as bad as committing it oneself. For another, while sexual and economic relationships can coexist ethically between the same people, it generally requires explicit and formal commitments to achieve; when the topic deliberately goes unaddressed, it creates ambiguities and uncertainties that, even if not consciously exploited, can nonetheless undermine the relationship. (Consider, if nothing else, that asking someone about money he owes you can be a lot more fraught if you're already sleeping with him.)

The simple rules "Don't sleep with someone already involved with someone else", "Don't sleep with someone who owes you money unless you absolutely don't care about getting the money", and "Don't sleep with someone who isn't free and willing to commit their life to being your exclusive partner" would have prevented all the chaos outlined in the original post. That basic chastity covers all this is no coincidence.

But why are we hearing about their dirty laundry? I am supposed to judge someone's private life, without even hearing their perspective, about matters which have really nothing to do with anyone outside of their private lives? This is just petty bullshit by someone not mature enough to know better. It doesn't "protect" anyone in the future. It's just an ex who jilted them. Welcome to life?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 08, 2021, 01:24:46 PM
You shouldn't really, but if we can't continue to present the Others as immoral failures then by god what can we do

Problem is... These "others" have rather consistently proven to be either insane or crooks of some sort, sometimes both.
And in case you had not noticed. They have painted US as the others. Not the other way round.

Others can Other others too, so it's just everybody othering everybody else. You can quibble about who started the othering first but that's the state of things now.

But it's like, what now? The Others are already engaging in their usual cancel-countercancel maneuvers of which nobody here has any real part, so then what? You continue to not buy their games?
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: wmarshal on April 08, 2021, 01:55:25 PM
I do not see any way this is covered by the various sexual harassment rules or laws with regard to the power relationship between a boss and a subordinate.

This particular situation isn't about harassment. Harassment occurs when one party is trying repeatedly to establish a sexual, or at the very least a sexualized, relationship with the other despite explicit rebuffing. In this case the relationship between the two primary actors began with mutual consent; my point is that that consent in itself doesn't automatically make it ethical.

For one thing, as noted in the original story, Hill was already committed and did not initially have any permission at all to seek outside activity, and enabling someone else's infidelity is still unethical, if not quite as bad as committing it oneself. For another, while sexual and economic relationships can coexist ethically between the same people, it generally requires explicit and formal commitments to achieve; when the topic deliberately goes unaddressed, it creates ambiguities and uncertainties that, even if not consciously exploited, can nonetheless undermine the relationship. (Consider, if nothing else, that asking someone about money he owes you can be a lot more fraught if you're already sleeping with him.)

The simple rules "Don't sleep with someone already involved with someone else", "Don't sleep with someone who owes you money unless you absolutely don't care about getting the money", and "Don't sleep with someone who isn't free and willing to commit their life to being your exclusive partner" would have prevented all the chaos outlined in the original post. That basic chastity covers all this is no coincidence.

But why are we hearing about their dirty laundry? I am supposed to judge someone's private life, without even hearing their perspective, about matters which have really nothing to do with anyone outside of their private lives? This is just petty bullshit by someone not mature enough to know better. It doesn't "protect" anyone in the future. It's just an ex who jilted them. Welcome to life?
If you’re asking “why” in a general sense then perhaps this is a result of the personal being political for many people. If you’re woke, a personal train wreck gets elevated to a political violation of some kind that warrants the public airing of what used to be considered a private matter. If you’re woke then you can’t remain silent on a political matter, otherwise they’re essentially committing a sin.

If you mean a rational justification that most here would accept as to why she ought to have blasted Hill publicly…I got nothing.

However, the milk is spilt, and Hill is one of the woke idiots many see as an opponent. I can’t blame folks for getting some satisfaction in seeing him get trashed.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: TobiasP on April 08, 2021, 02:17:59 PM
White Wolf games were always like that. I have heard more dumb stories out of that shop than anywhere else on the planet.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 08, 2021, 02:18:47 PM
White Wolf games were always like that. I have heard more dumb stories out of that shop than anywhere else on the planet.

Nobody wants to think about how or who Kevin Siembieda fucks.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: HappyDaze on April 08, 2021, 07:12:30 PM
White Wolf games were always like that. I have heard more dumb stories out of that shop than anywhere else on the planet.

Nobody wants to think about how or who Kevin Siembieda fucks.
But he never releases too soon.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Pat on April 08, 2021, 08:15:35 PM
I need two ice picks, one for each eye.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 09, 2021, 01:47:44 AM
White Wolf games were always like that. I have heard more dumb stories out of that shop than anywhere else on the planet.

Nobody wants to think about how or who Kevin Siembieda fucks.
But he never releases too soon.

I felt a single tear roll down my cheek as I read this, you are all right.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Eirikrautha on April 11, 2021, 01:02:14 PM
Games were better back when we didn't know or care who the designers were much less their personal life details.
If only there was an economic system based around the free exchange of goods, where people could offer the fruits of their labor to any who wanted them.  A system where people could purchase a watch without any knowledge of the watchmaker.  Nah, let's just try to create a socialist utopia.  The fact that it's never worked (and that the personal becoming political is an inherent feature of the philosophy) shouldn't worry us at all...
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Reckall on April 11, 2021, 01:18:25 PM
If only there was an economic system based around the free exchange of goods, where people could offer the fruits of their labor to any who wanted them.  A system where people could purchase a watch without any knowledge of the watchmaker.
I guess we will never know if the architect of the Sphinx was a paedo. And sometimes I wonder if this sends someone's bowels in knots, since he could very well admire the work of a paedo.  ???
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: HappyDaze on April 11, 2021, 01:19:53 PM
If only there was an economic system based around the free exchange of goods, where people could offer the fruits of their labor to any who wanted them.  A system where people could purchase a watch without any knowledge of the watchmaker.
I guess we will never know if the architect of the Sphinx was a paedo. And sometimes I wonder if this sends someone's bowels in knots, since he could very well admire the work of a paedo.  ???
More likely the architect of the Sphinx was into bestiality.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: This Guy on April 11, 2021, 02:18:15 PM
If only there was an economic system based around the free exchange of goods, where people could offer the fruits of their labor to any who wanted them.  A system where people could purchase a watch without any knowledge of the watchmaker.
I guess we will never know if the architect of the Sphinx was a paedo. And sometimes I wonder if this sends someone's bowels in knots, since he could very well admire the work of a paedo.  ???

Who needs it, statue sucks shit. Couldn't even get the nose right.
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: DocJones on April 14, 2021, 06:39:17 PM
I'm totally confused. Is there a penis involved?  Who has the penis? 


Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 06:49:43 PM
I'm totally confused. Is there a penis involved?  Who has the penis?

Why, the guilty party of course! You muhsoggykneest!
Title: Re: Reset the clock. Again.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on April 15, 2021, 01:52:53 AM
I'm totally confused. Is there a penis involved?  Who has the penis?
It could be anyone's penis. It could be woman's penis. You can't assume. Bigot.