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Author Topic: Renaissance or Middle Ages?  (Read 1826 times)

One Horse Town

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« on: December 08, 2016, 03:33:16 PM »
The mood that you're in now, or the time period you prefer from those two options generally when fantasy or historical gaming.

crkrueger

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 03:37:41 PM »
For Fantasy Gaming in general I think Dark Ages, then Medieval, then Renaissance.  The less civilized and technological (which in fantasy means wizard guilds, etc.) it is, the more likely acceptable sandbox adventuring becomes.

For Historical Gaming I think Renaissance might allow for more flexibility in character creation, where Medieval seems hard to remove from Feudalism, which is going to highly limit your options.
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Simlasa

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 04:33:41 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;934275
For Fantasy Gaming in general I think Dark Ages, then Medieval, then Renaissance.
How are you defining 'Dark Ages' vs. 'Medieval'? There seems to be some controversy over those terms...

I voted Renaissance... because that seems to best describe the setting of most psuedo-quasi-European fantasy games I've played/ran... what with inns and hired coaches and cities and freedom of movement and books...

Madprofessor

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 04:42:18 PM »
I prefer the early middle ages or "dark ages" for heroic flavor, flexibility and as a long time personal historical passion.  It works for fantasy or historical gaming, and it is pretty easy to blur the lines between the two.

From a role-playing perspective, the lack of social flexibility in the historical high middle ages in western Europe is a bit stifling, though it can work on the geographical fringes. Of course in fantasy, that can all change.  In fact, I wonder how many people even think about their fantasy games in historical terms.

The Renaissance era seems to be the default for fantasy.  I'm not sure why.  Perhaps it easier for moderns to relate to an imagined society on the edge of capitalism and technological wonder.  Historically, I would argue that the Renaissance didn't even exist as an era, even though it has long been a part of the western narrative.  It was, I think, essentially an artistic movement that was limited to a small number of elites in Norther Italy.  The vast majority of Europeans were completely oblivious that they were living in a new enlightened era of humanism.  The plague, the expansion of trade, and later the Reformation, had much more to with the breakdown of feudal society than Renaissance thinking did.

Madprofessor

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 04:58:33 PM »
Quote from: Simlasa;934285
How are you defining 'Dark Ages' vs. 'Medieval'? There seems to be some controversy over those terms...

The boundaries between these era's are fuzzy, as far as historians are concerned.  There are no convenient dramatic events to separate them.  The "early medieval" or "post-antique" labels are generally used to describe the period between the fall of the western Roman Empire and the development of feudalism - but that gets difficult because feudalism is not easy to define.  It varies from region to region, changes over time within the same region, and some areas never really feudalized at all.  Charlemagne's empire might be a good period marker for parts of France, but don't make sense for Britain, etc.

The term "Dark Ages" has fallen out of use, in professional circles. Originally, it was used to describe the era where we supposedly had few records, between ancient Rome and the Renaissance (or there about), as though that era is "dark" or "un-lit" to us. It was meant to be slightly derogatory, coined in an era when you didn't need to be too PC, or concerned with cultural relativism. The term is, in fact, inaccurate as we have more records from the "dark ages" - by a long shot - than we do from the Roman Empire or Republic.  I still like it as term though - 'cause it sounds cool.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 05:18:00 PM by Madprofessor »

crkrueger

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 05:21:02 PM »
Quote from: Simlasa;934285
How are you defining 'Dark Ages' vs. 'Medieval'? There seems to be some controversy over those terms...

More 400-800 than 900-1400.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

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"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Kiero

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 06:02:20 PM »
Neither, I'm thoroughly sick of feudal tropes. I'd rather before (antiquity) or after (Enlightenment).
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Pyromancer

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 06:02:27 PM »
Actually, I like both the time before (early Iron Age to late Roman) and after (Age of Revolution) better. If restricted to the two options presented, I'd choose Renaissance.
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Old One Eye

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 07:34:29 PM »
When running a game, I do not pay enough historical fidelity to make it all that distinguishable.

Daztur

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2016, 08:16:45 PM »
A lot of what people think of as Medieval are more Renaissance (from the clothes to the armor to the architecture etc. etc.) so it just confuses a lot of people if you try to do High Middle Ages as the High Middle Ages. Right now I'm feeling like the twilight of the Antiquity more than anything. Something more romantic about people trying hold onto the last sparks of the old order than people digging through its rubble.

Psikerlord

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2016, 09:01:18 PM »
Quote from: Madprofessor;934292
The boundaries between these era's are fuzzy, as far as historians are concerned.  There are no convenient dramatic events to separate them.  The "early medieval" or "post-antique" labels are generally used to describe the period between the fall of the western Roman Empire and the development of feudalism - but that gets difficult because feudalism is not easy to define.  It varies from region to region, changes over time within the same region, and some areas never really feudalized at all.  Charlemagne's empire might be a good period marker for parts of France, but don't make sense for Britain, etc.

The term "Dark Ages" has fallen out of use, in professional circles. Originally, it was used to describe the era where we supposedly had few records, between ancient Rome and the Renaissance (or there about), as though that era is "dark" or "un-lit" to us. It was meant to be slightly derogatory, coined in an era when you didn't need to be too PC, or concerned with cultural relativism. The term is, in fact, inaccurate as we have more records from the "dark ages" - by a long shot - than we do from the Roman Empire or Republic.  I still like it as term though - 'cause it sounds cool.


Yeah I like "Dark Ages" for the tone it implies - for me at least, a kind of barbaric medieval, less reading/writing, more basic armour, that sort of thing.

Using wikis/google, seems to me dark ages was originally meant to cover up to about 1400s, but in more recent years tends to cap out at about 1000...?

I am thinking of describing my WIP setting as "late dark ages", hopefully implying to most readers something similar tech wise to around the 900-1000 mark - ah it's a fantasy setting in any event, not a historical one, so creative licence and all that :)
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Psikerlord

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2016, 09:02:04 PM »
Quote from: Old One Eye;934321
When running a game, I do not pay enough historical fidelity to make it all that distinguishable.
this is often me too, to be honest ;)
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Armchair Gamer

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2016, 09:07:40 PM »
Romanticized/idealized High Medieval for me ... but then, that's my bailiwick period.

The Butcher

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2016, 09:43:25 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;934275
For Fantasy Gaming in general I think Dark Ages, then Medieval, then Renaissance.  The less civilized and technological (which in fantasy means wizard guilds, etc.) it is, the more likely acceptable sandbox adventuring becomes.

This, in theory, but my D&D games in  particular tend to be every bit as anachronistic as the Hyborian Age. There's the vaguely Arthurian-flavored High Medieval realm with a strong king, (mostly) loyal vassal lords, knights in full plate doing jousts and shit. There's the Viking-era Scandinavia stand-in. The horse-nomad raiders that combine elements of every horse-nomad raider culture from Kurgans to Huns to Mongols to Seljuk Turks to Tatar Russia. The confederation of mercantile city-states that's mostly inspired by Northern Italy but shares elements with half a dozen other Mediterranean civilizations from Phoenicians to Magna Graecia to Discovery Age Portugal. Turns out "Medieval" is a much bigger umbrella than "Renaissance" ;)

For historical gaming, anything goes.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 10:00:08 PM by The Butcher »

Madprofessor

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Renaissance or Middle Ages?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2016, 10:38:24 PM »
Quote from: The Butcher;934335
This, in theory, but my D&D games in  particular tend to be every bit as anachronistic as the Hyborian Age.


Yeah, I think that was the point of the Hyborian Age, even from Howard's perspective - all of the cool bits of history with none of the restrictions, all thrown together in a homemade stew.  It's kind of a sampler of historical flavors.