As mentioned in another thread on this idiot subject.

Dark elves in Dragonlance are just regular elves that have been cast out from elven lands or society.

Tika and Dalamar from the Russian Dragonlance musical. Bemusing as the one playing Dalamar was Raistlin in the vesion prior. His wife plays Tika.
The one from the version after this was interesting as he had very pale skin and one half was done up with a skeletal theme which cant be seen in this pic unfortunately..

That was how dark elves rolled in Feist's Riftwar setting as well. It was even weirder because dark elves could redeem themselves, and while there was no outward change you could -immediately- tell they were no longer a dark elf.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;11348151.  A rationed, well thought out argument with salient references on Reddit?  Hell has frozen over.
2.  Ok, which one of you is moonlighting on Reddit?  Heh

The responses though are precisely the kind of "I took a humanities class, once, and no longer have a brain of my own" response you'd expect from a typical Reddit user.

Quote from: Omega;1134806Actually... several of those examples are from 5e. Not TSR era.

And? Isn't RAW being used to naysay me?

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1134830That was how dark elves rolled in Feist's Riftwar setting as well. It was even weirder because dark elves could redeem themselves, and while there was no outward change you could -immediately- tell they were no longer a dark elf.

Well, other elves could immediately tell.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134772The moment I read about Warhammer's Dark Elves, I tossed the Drow.

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Funny enough, by the time we get to Age of Sigmar, the Dark Elves form a major part of the "Cities of Sigmar" forces--yep, they joined up with the (former) Empire, dispossessed Dwarves, and (now) homeless Wood Elves to fight crime...er, Chaos, as a "good guy" faction.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134858And? Isn't RAW being used to naysay me?

Only when referring to centaurs?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1134908Well, other elves could immediately tell.

I swear there was a 'redemption' scene where a non-elf was watching ... wait, if the 'non-elf' was Tomas, the reincarnation of Ashen-Shugar, he -certainly- would be able to tell.

Damn it, I'm going to have to reread the books or this is gonna bug me all day. Oh well, there are worse things to read.

Someone I agree with:

QuoteDear Wizards,

Please walk back and deny any further changes to your games on the base of racism. This is coming from a POC. In Dungeon and dragons, as players, we know that Orcs are not black people. In fact, by making changes you are being racist, let me explain.

In Dungeons and Dragons making changes to the Orc over the argument that they represent black people is also problematic. You already have a race that represents black people, Humans. Humans can be of any skin color and they all share the same attributes. Orcs are of a totally different species which do share different traits, the same way cats and dogs are different. Races and monsters in these games and literature represent aspects of us as people. Aspects that may trouble us or ones we want to revere. We fight orcs because they represent the fear of how far our anger and rage can go. It is us as people saying that anger and hate is unacceptable. By making changes to orcs on the base of racism is saying that orcs represent black people, that they are not human.

I would argue even that the people who see these things as racist have no understanding of the game and may even be racist themselves. Who sees these descriptions and immediately say "that sounds like a black person, i wonder if that is what they meant by it?"; I would argue someone who does not see POC as equals or people that are capable of being different than their stereotypes.

Please do not bend to the will of the outraged mob. Stand by your convictions of diversity by judging these game mechanics based on their own merit. If you truly think these are racist then by all means keep the changes but if you know they are not racist then don't let others tell you otherwise. Thank you for listening.

Then some idiot chimes in with this crap. So convenient to acknowledge that we aren't a monolith when it supports their agenda.

QuoteI think they want to make as many people feel comfortable and welcome as possible. For a long time fantasy in general has been rife with shitty racists and chromosomal deficients. I have lots of friends of color who avoid fantasy entirely as a result. I personally don't see any problems with the changes proposed, they aren't mandatory anyway. People of color aren't a monolith and your opinion doesn't dictate what everyone else feels. I know plenty of people who are turned off by the language used for drow, it's pretty clearly evocative of the same terminology used to degrade POC in this country historically and currently.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1135076Someone I agree with:



Then some idiot chimes in with this crap. So convenient to acknowledge that we aren't a monolith when it supports their agenda...

So, basically, the White Knight needed to shush the POC lest other POC "friends" are deprived of their champion's voice on the matter. Fucking classic.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1135086So, basically, the White Knight needed to shush the POC lest other POC "friends" are deprived of their champion's voice on the matter. Fucking classic.

As I said, SJW race policy is a trick. If a black person disagrees with them they get unblacked. You can't win at a game where they control the rules.

They care about 'comfort', primarily their own. You can't win against them using their own rules.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1135076Someone I agree with:
Then some idiot chimes in with this crap. So convenient to acknowledge that we aren't a monolith when it supports their agenda.

$20 says the idiot is a white millennial who has never worked a day in his/her/it's life.

Quote from: Brad;1135102$20 says the idiot is a white millennial who has never worked a day in his/her/it's life.

I was born at night, but not last night.

Anyways, this line jumped out:

QuoteFor a long time fantasy in general has been rife with shitty racists and chromosomal deficients.

And my reaction was, 'Oh really? Based on what, you sniveling shit? When were you EVER part of that group of outcasts?'

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1135076

QuoteI think they want to make as many people feel comfortable and welcome as possible. For a long time fantasy in general has been rife with shitty racists and chromosomal deficients. I have lots of friends of color who avoid fantasy entirely as a result. I personally don't see any problems with the changes proposed, they aren't mandatory anyway. People of color aren't a monolith and your opinion doesn't dictate what everyone else feels. I know plenty of people who are turned off by the language used for drow, it's pretty clearly evocative of the same terminology used to degrade POC in this country historically and currently.

"I'm not racist, I've got lots of black friends who agree with me!"

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1135076Someone I agree with:
...
Then some idiot chimes in with this crap. So convenient to acknowledge that we aren't a monolith when it supports their agenda.

Quote...People of color aren't a monolith and your opinion doesn't dictate what everyone else feels...

It never ceases to amaze me how detractors are never entitled to "dictate" (i.e resist/oppose the rules from on high) anything for the people imposing the rules, but the people imposing the rules are perfectly entitled and within their rights to impose them on everyone else.

They determined for the rest of us that these changes are necessary, so we better accept them or it's US who're imposing shit on everybody else. This all rides on the basis of spurious, self-asserted and contentious claims that they assume to be true therefore they must be true, and the burden of proof is on the detractors who are never heard and automatically dismissed anyways. And there's always a magic "POC" somewhere that someone knows who agrees with this, who we must take into consideration whenever objecting to this shit, less we're the assholes for not accepting it out of hand.

And obviously, given how widespread these spurious notions have become, of course there's gonna be "POC" who actually believe in this shit, and of course there might be anecdotal examples that may superficially seem to support some of these claims (if we take them at face value without knowing the other side's version of events). But just because someone somewhere had a bad experience once that doesn't prove that this is a pervasive problem that must be tackled specifically by treating orcs and other fantasy humanoids as racist caricatures of "POC", which is a racist notion in and of itself.

It all follows a winning formula:

• Make spurious claims.
• Poison the well by reasserting and spreading these ideas till they become accepted in the gullible population as "fact".
• Demand changes be made.
• Accuse all detractors of either being complicit with "racist" or other prejudicial ideas or "dictating" the terms for everyone else for not allowing the terms to be dictated for them.
• Profit.