This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.

Author Topic: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs  (Read 13686 times)

Oddend

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 91
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #495 on: October 14, 2021, 02:05:31 AM »
Kinsella puts forward some compelling arguments for the anti-IP side.

Does the pro-IP side have any response why they should have lifetime protection?

Incidentally, Kinsella is set to debate Richard Epstein in a couple weeks (Epstein being for the negative on the resolution, "All patent and copyright law should be abolished"). I'm not familiar with Epstein's stance, but it's probably worth a search, or catching up via the debate later: https://www.thesohoforum.org/

Historically speaking, two monumental intellects who were "imho" monumentally wrong on IP were Ayn Rand and Lysander Spooner.

You can find Spooner's take here: https://oll.libertyfund.org/title/spooner-the-law-of-intellectual-property-1855

I'm sure Rand wrote much more on the issue than this one article, but her general summary is here: https://courses.aynrand.org/works/patents-and-copyrights/

You'll find that Rand rested on a completely different set of premises than anyone else in the free-market camp, but she was a fantastic writer, and her arguments absolutely demand to be wrestled with, even if hoity-toity types refuse to consider her a serious person. I highly recommend her two anthologies that I've read: "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" (which the linked article is from), and "The Virtue of Selfishness".

(On the other hand, I don't think any of the modern Randian think tanks are worth your time, but I did find this talk on IP from one of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfMd1fHc2mE)

Murray Rothbard was an unparalleled genius, and he was sympathetic to copyright (not patents), but on a contractual basis: https://mises.org/library/man-economy-and-state-power-and-market/html/p/1075

Now, you can probably tell I'm only familiar with the free-market bigbranes on this issue, so if there are any famously pro-IP socialists, I don't know who they are. It would seem to me to be a contradiction, since the whole idea of IP is predicated (at least ostensibly) on the validity of individual property rights. Though I might characterize IP as "accidental socialism", I doubt any open socialist would be able to make a convincing case for IP. So I doubt I'm missing much.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 02:09:16 AM by Oddend »

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #496 on: October 14, 2021, 02:22:50 AM »
I already stated what my position was regarding reforming IP law several pages back, well before some posters started calling ME a slaver, thief and socialist.

Basically find a happy medium where the author retains the rights (can reclaim them from a corporation without legal recourse) is protected from corporations just taking his shit and running with it and maybe can inherit to the sons.

Probably less than forever and certainly more than 2 years as someone proposed (Estar, Pat or Oddend I think). You usually retire at 65, lets say then 50 years and if you die then it's inherited by your heirs. This puts you at 70 if you published at 20 and in your grave if you published at 40-50 with your heirs getting the remainder.

But this caused a cascade of caustic acid to be droped on me. I'm not sure I want to be in the same camp as THOSE people.

So I might seriously be on the forever camp now. Especially if that would cause the "It's just an idea man!" people to loose their shit.
You were the one who started calling everyone communists and socialists and thieves. And then I pointed out that one the major planks in your argument (the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it) was straight from Karl Marx.

Also, the 2 years was a joke. I was a response to you saying you wanted the term of copyright protections extended to forever. I also said it once. You've said forever probably a dozen times.

Another person who can dish it out, but can't take it. Rules for thee, but not for me. Where have we seen that before?

Lets see Pat: Where exactly do I say that? Quote me, none of that "creative quoting technique"

I've said many times that part of the investment of a creative product IS work/effort/labor and also that you don't owe me a cent for that. Unless you want to use what I made, then you have to pay the price I deem correct for my product.

Do you seriously think a mason doesn't include his labor as part of the price for building a house? Or the plumber for fixing your drains? Are they socialists too?

You keep conflating gimnasium with magnesium.

To be a socialist argument I would need to be working for say Baizuo and demanding the owners get zero because of my labor.

But since I'm the owner I can't do that... So tell me again how your car mechanic, plumber, carpenter are socialists because they include their labor as part of the price you pay?

And if they're not then how come I am for doing the same?

Or you (once again) are talking out of your ass?

Square that circle child.

Then come back with your "It's just an idea man!" non-argument.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 3911
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #497 on: October 14, 2021, 03:15:21 AM »
I already stated what my position was regarding reforming IP law several pages back, well before some posters started calling ME a slaver, thief and socialist.

Basically find a happy medium where the author retains the rights (can reclaim them from a corporation without legal recourse) is protected from corporations just taking his shit and running with it and maybe can inherit to the sons.

Probably less than forever and certainly more than 2 years as someone proposed (Estar, Pat or Oddend I think). You usually retire at 65, lets say then 50 years and if you die then it's inherited by your heirs. This puts you at 70 if you published at 20 and in your grave if you published at 40-50 with your heirs getting the remainder.

But this caused a cascade of caustic acid to be droped on me. I'm not sure I want to be in the same camp as THOSE people.

So I might seriously be on the forever camp now. Especially if that would cause the "It's just an idea man!" people to loose their shit.
You were the one who started calling everyone communists and socialists and thieves. And then I pointed out that one the major planks in your argument (the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it) was straight from Karl Marx.

Also, the 2 years was a joke. I was a response to you saying you wanted the term of copyright protections extended to forever. I also said it once. You've said forever probably a dozen times.

Another person who can dish it out, but can't take it. Rules for thee, but not for me. Where have we seen that before?

Lets see Pat: Where exactly do I say that? Quote me, none of that "creative quoting technique"

I've said many times that part of the investment of a creative product IS work/effort/labor and also that you don't owe me a cent for that. Unless you want to use what I made, then you have to pay the price I deem correct for my product.

Do you seriously think a mason doesn't include his labor as part of the price for building a house? Or the plumber for fixing your drains? Are they socialists too?

You keep conflating gimnasium with magnesium.

To be a socialist argument I would need to be working for say Baizuo and demanding the owners get zero because of my labor.

But since I'm the owner I can't do that... So tell me again how your car mechanic, plumber, carpenter are socialists because they include their labor as part of the price you pay?

And if they're not then how come I am for doing the same?

Or you (once again) are talking out of your ass?

Square that circle child.

Then come back with your "It's just an idea man!" non-argument.
What creative quoting techniques? You're making very slimy insinuation, and you need to back that up. Where have I ever done anything except quote the exact statement I'm addressing?

Since you're admitting that you're unfamiliar with basic economics with those questions, I'll give you a quick primer. The resources, including time and effort, used to produce something is part of the economic calculation used by entrepreneurs and other business types. That's also known as basic accounting. They use market-generated prices to run the numbers, and then make projections, which they use to inform their decisions as they invest in new lines of production. Sometimes this works, sometimes this doesn't. It's what separates the failed businesses from the successful ones.

Companies thrive or die based on whether they guess or fail to guess what the market wants, but the inputs have nothing to do with the prices people are willing to pay. Your labor does not make something more valuable or less valuable. What determines value is the subjective determinations of other people in the market, who make individual decisions about how to allocate their own resources, including money. Unless there is price fixing, which can be direct or the result of a monopoly, companies can't force people to pay the price they "deem correct". See Venezuela or Soviet Russia for how that turns out.

This isn't controversial. The only major or minor school of economics that disagrees is the Marxists. If you want to educate yourself on intro economics, I recommend Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson or Sowell's Basic Economics as a starting place. For understanding the basics of how socialism fails as a system, try Von Mises' Socialism.

What the hell is "gimnasium with magnesium".

And where have I said "It's just an idea man!"? Quote me, none of that "creative quoting technique", or you're talking out of your ass, child.

(Honestly if you just drop all the dismissive phrasing, I will too. But until then, I'm going to keep throwing it back at you.)

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 3911
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #498 on: October 14, 2021, 03:27:45 AM »
Given the objections you've just presented to my arguments (i.e. demanding logical consistency), I really do genuinely think you would enjoy this talk by Kinsella (again, rather than "read the thread, REEEE"). It includes a great Q&A and hits on everything discussed in this thread, from a radically anti-communist point of view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfU34KkNV1s

Ignore the hippie vibe of the venue branding. He's not associated with them, it's just a venue.

Kinsella puts forward some compelling arguments for the anti-IP side.

Does the pro-IP side have any response why they should have lifetime protection?
I'm not sure an internally consistent argument can made in favor of restricting the ownership of IP to just a single lifetime. After all, if intellectual creations are property, and someone can gift a house they own to their heirs, why can't they grant the ownership of a catalog of books they wrote to their heirs?

This conflict doesn't happen if intellectual creations aren't property.

hedgehobbit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #499 on: October 14, 2021, 10:25:11 AM »
I'm not sure an internally consistent argument can made in favor of restricting the ownership of IP to just a single lifetime. After all, if intellectual creations are property, and someone can gift a house they own to their heirs, why can't they grant the ownership of a catalog of books they wrote to their heirs?

This thread has convinced me that the only logically consistent argument is one where copywrite ownership lasts forever. The original IP creator certainly shouldn't be able to reclaim the copywrite after any period of time. That would be like someone selling me a house and the showing up at my door 25 years later demanding it back.

If you don't want someone to own the copywrite for your work, don't sell it to them (or, at least, put it into your contract that they only have it for a fixed period of time) and don't work for hire. All of the issues people mentioned can be solved just by having individuals negotiate terms of their work at the moment of sale. Not demanding the government change the terms of the contract decades later.

deadDMwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2342
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #500 on: October 14, 2021, 03:08:17 PM »
Not demanding the government change the terms of the contract decades later.

Contract law is an important part of the legal system.  Since you essentially have to accept numerous contracts to do ANYTHING and they are not negotiated (ie, if you don't accept Apple's terms, you can't use the phone you purchased) it's important that contracts are 'fair'.  The government often strikes out 'unfair' portions of a contract.  For example, to accept just about any job, you may have to accept NOT working in the industry for 3-5 years after your leave your role.  That type of non-compete is usually not enforceable. 

There are a lot of examples of contracts that are 'accepted' but designed to be unfair.  Things like 'right to repair' and 'required arbitration' are in the news now because they're designed to allow one party to a contract to have all the power in breaking/failing to fulfill their parties without giving the other party any recourse.   
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #501 on: October 14, 2021, 04:49:25 PM »
I already stated what my position was regarding reforming IP law several pages back, well before some posters started calling ME a slaver, thief and socialist.

Basically find a happy medium where the author retains the rights (can reclaim them from a corporation without legal recourse) is protected from corporations just taking his shit and running with it and maybe can inherit to the sons.

Probably less than forever and certainly more than 2 years as someone proposed (Estar, Pat or Oddend I think). You usually retire at 65, lets say then 50 years and if you die then it's inherited by your heirs. This puts you at 70 if you published at 20 and in your grave if you published at 40-50 with your heirs getting the remainder.

But this caused a cascade of caustic acid to be droped on me. I'm not sure I want to be in the same camp as THOSE people.

So I might seriously be on the forever camp now. Especially if that would cause the "It's just an idea man!" people to loose their shit.
You were the one who started calling everyone communists and socialists and thieves. And then I pointed out that one the major planks in your argument (the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it) was straight from Karl Marx.

Also, the 2 years was a joke. I was a response to you saying you wanted the term of copyright protections extended to forever. I also said it once. You've said forever probably a dozen times.

Another person who can dish it out, but can't take it. Rules for thee, but not for me. Where have we seen that before?

Lets see Pat: Where exactly do I say that? Quote me, none of that "creative quoting technique"

I've said many times that part of the investment of a creative product IS work/effort/labor and also that you don't owe me a cent for that. Unless you want to use what I made, then you have to pay the price I deem correct for my product.

Do you seriously think a mason doesn't include his labor as part of the price for building a house? Or the plumber for fixing your drains? Are they socialists too?

You keep conflating gimnasium with magnesium.

To be a socialist argument I would need to be working for say Baizuo and demanding the owners get zero because of my labor.

But since I'm the owner I can't do that... So tell me again how your car mechanic, plumber, carpenter are socialists because they include their labor as part of the price you pay?

And if they're not then how come I am for doing the same?

Or you (once again) are talking out of your ass?

Square that circle child.

Then come back with your "It's just an idea man!" non-argument.
What creative quoting techniques? You're making very slimy insinuation, and you need to back that up. Where have I ever done anything except quote the exact statement I'm addressing?

Since you're admitting that you're unfamiliar with basic economics with those questions, I'll give you a quick primer. The resources, including time and effort, used to produce something is part of the economic calculation used by entrepreneurs and other business types. That's also known as basic accounting. They use market-generated prices to run the numbers, and then make projections, which they use to inform their decisions as they invest in new lines of production. Sometimes this works, sometimes this doesn't. It's what separates the failed businesses from the successful ones.

Companies thrive or die based on whether they guess or fail to guess what the market wants, but the inputs have nothing to do with the prices people are willing to pay. Your labor does not make something more valuable or less valuable. What determines value is the subjective determinations of other people in the market, who make individual decisions about how to allocate their own resources, including money. Unless there is price fixing, which can be direct or the result of a monopoly, companies can't force people to pay the price they "deem correct". See Venezuela or Soviet Russia for how that turns out.

This isn't controversial. The only major or minor school of economics that disagrees is the Marxists. If you want to educate yourself on intro economics, I recommend Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson or Sowell's Basic Economics as a starting place. For understanding the basics of how socialism fails as a system, try Von Mises' Socialism.

What the hell is "gimnasium with magnesium".

And where have I said "It's just an idea man!"? Quote me, none of that "creative quoting technique", or you're talking out of your ass, child.

(Honestly if you just drop all the dismissive phrasing, I will too. But until then, I'm going to keep throwing it back at you.)

You really think I don't know how prices are calculated?

In market X a plumber can charge Y for it's time plus materials while in market P a plumber can charge Y+10% for it's time plus materials.

When the plumber is giving you an estimate, he is including his time/work into the calculation.

Now again, when I say my time/work matters into the price of my game you say it's marxism.

Now please do quote where I say this "(the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it)". Can you? I bet you can't.

You're too busy trying to win the argument to do the bare minimum to try and understand what I'm saying even if we do disagree.

Once again: YOU don't have the right to PROFIT from my work without a voluntary exchange of money between us.

That doesn't mean you owe me shit, but it also doesn't mean you can just take my shit and profit from it without my say so & said voluntary exchange of money.

Plenty of people publish their shit and never make a dime, that's fine. Nobody has the obligation to give them UBI (something else one of you claimed I was in favor off). Their right to profit from their shit hasn't been infringed if nobody buys their shit.

It is infringed if someone takes their shit and profits from it without a contract and an exchange of money (unless the dumbass signed the rights away for free).

This I have explained in so many different ways, and yet YOU call this slavery, socialism and Estar claims I'm infringing on his rights to? I dunno, pirate my stuff?

So you're not on the "A finished game is an idea camp?"

Well if you don't think that way then my bad.

Now please provide that exact quote where I said that. "(the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it)". Can you? I bet you can't.

PROFIT =/= PAID Not in this case, again, to be a socialist thing it has to be directed against the owners of a company claiming they have no right to the profits because labor.

Since I'm the "owner of the company" (Put company in infinite quotes), I can hardly be making that argument, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW this.

What's more, you DO know that's not my argument because you also claimed I'm for slavery because I want people to give me money for my product. Which is another stupid claim since a voluntary exchange of money for goods/services CAN'T be slavery.

UNLESS you think my game should be available for free for anyone and they should also be able to print and sell it (or sell the PDF) without my signature in a contract...

So are my games a product or an idea?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 3911
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #502 on: October 14, 2021, 07:42:43 PM »
You really think I don't know how prices are calculated?

In market X a plumber can charge Y for it's time plus materials while in market P a plumber can charge Y+10% for it's time plus materials.

When the plumber is giving you an estimate, he is including his time/work into the calculation.

Now again, when I say my time/work matters into the price of my game you say it's marxism.

Now please do quote where I say this "(the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it)". Can you? I bet you can't.

You're too busy trying to win the argument to do the bare minimum to try and understand what I'm saying even if we do disagree.

Once again: YOU don't have the right to PROFIT from my work without a voluntary exchange of money between us.

That doesn't mean you owe me shit, but it also doesn't mean you can just take my shit and profit from it without my say so & said voluntary exchange of money.

Plenty of people publish their shit and never make a dime, that's fine. Nobody has the obligation to give them UBI (something else one of you claimed I was in favor off). Their right to profit from their shit hasn't been infringed if nobody buys their shit.

It is infringed if someone takes their shit and profits from it without a contract and an exchange of money (unless the dumbass signed the rights away for free).

This I have explained in so many different ways, and yet YOU call this slavery, socialism and Estar claims I'm infringing on his rights to? I dunno, pirate my stuff?

So you're not on the "A finished game is an idea camp?"

Well if you don't think that way then my bad.

Now please provide that exact quote where I said that. "(the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it)". Can you? I bet you can't.

PROFIT =/= PAID Not in this case, again, to be a socialist thing it has to be directed against the owners of a company claiming they have no right to the profits because labor.

Since I'm the "owner of the company" (Put company in infinite quotes), I can hardly be making that argument, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW this.

What's more, you DO know that's not my argument because you also claimed I'm for slavery because I want people to give me money for my product. Which is another stupid claim since a voluntary exchange of money for goods/services CAN'T be slavery.

UNLESS you think my game should be available for free for anyone and they should also be able to print and sell it (or sell the PDF) without my signature in a contract...

So are my games a product or an idea?
You're still insisting it's the inputs that determine the market price. That's false. If you spend $1 million making someone nobody wants, then you'll sell zero. If you calculate you'll sell a 1,000 units of another product in the first month at $20, and you only sell 100, then there's a problem with your calculation and you'll have to adjust. You might have to cut the price, even below the manufacturing cost, in order to clear your inventory. Your company might go bankrupt as a result. You might have to abort future production lines.

Entrepreneurs try to predict the market, but the price is determined by the market, not them. This is literally economics 101.

You keep making these silly demands for citations, when I'm literally quoting and replying to the posts where you keep making these arguments.

"Once again: YOU don't have the right to PROFIT from my work without a voluntary exchange of money between us." Not true, and there are too many exceptions to list. For a few examples, what about freeware? Or scientific papers published in journals? Or derivative works? Or copyright or other legal protections lapsing? Or things that aren't covered by the various intellectual property laws, like typefaces? Or work done as part of self-promotion, like an assessment provided to a company that's looking to hire someone with your expertise? (I put in a lot of hours I'm not directly compensated for trying to drum up new clients.) Or stuff that's provided fee to the end user, because it's the end user being monetized? Or what about inadvertent beneficial effects, like the smells wafting from a bakery, or raising property values of your neighbors by mowing your lawn and kicking out all the crack addicts? What about non-monetary exchange, like say you're sued and as part the settlement you have to grant then a license? And that's all assuming a legal protection is a right, or the current system is correct, both of which are extremely dubious assertions. You're stuck on the concept that your rights are being infringed, but you haven't really defined the right or where it comes from.

And yes, if you write a game and sell it, it's a product. And an idea. This is a place where we're talking past each other, because you see a conflict and I don't.

And no, I'm not trying to "win" an argument. I consider that a futile exercise. I'm trying to explain my position in a way that you can understand. That's why I always return to first principles and try to explain my position in another way, instead of just taking cheap shots. (I only take cheap shots when the other person fires a broadside, first. Like you calling me and everyone else communists, Precious Che Princess.) You don't have to agree, but it's nice when somebody occasionally groks what I'm saying.

I suspect it's pointless, in this case. You seem to be arguing from a position of moral outrage, and that's not something that can be rationally addressed. But I will suggest again that you consider reading the books I recommend in my last post. You're missing a few key economic principles, and they might help you frame your arguments.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #503 on: October 14, 2021, 08:06:04 PM »
You really think I don't know how prices are calculated?

In market X a plumber can charge Y for it's time plus materials while in market P a plumber can charge Y+10% for it's time plus materials.

When the plumber is giving you an estimate, he is including his time/work into the calculation.

Now again, when I say my time/work matters into the price of my game you say it's marxism.

Now please do quote where I say this "(the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it)". Can you? I bet you can't.

You're too busy trying to win the argument to do the bare minimum to try and understand what I'm saying even if we do disagree.

Once again: YOU don't have the right to PROFIT from my work without a voluntary exchange of money between us.

That doesn't mean you owe me shit, but it also doesn't mean you can just take my shit and profit from it without my say so & said voluntary exchange of money.

Plenty of people publish their shit and never make a dime, that's fine. Nobody has the obligation to give them UBI (something else one of you claimed I was in favor off). Their right to profit from their shit hasn't been infringed if nobody buys their shit.

It is infringed if someone takes their shit and profits from it without a contract and an exchange of money (unless the dumbass signed the rights away for free).

This I have explained in so many different ways, and yet YOU call this slavery, socialism and Estar claims I'm infringing on his rights to? I dunno, pirate my stuff?

So you're not on the "A finished game is an idea camp?"

Well if you don't think that way then my bad.

Now please provide that exact quote where I said that. "(the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it)". Can you? I bet you can't.

PROFIT =/= PAID Not in this case, again, to be a socialist thing it has to be directed against the owners of a company claiming they have no right to the profits because labor.

Since I'm the "owner of the company" (Put company in infinite quotes), I can hardly be making that argument, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW this.

What's more, you DO know that's not my argument because you also claimed I'm for slavery because I want people to give me money for my product. Which is another stupid claim since a voluntary exchange of money for goods/services CAN'T be slavery.

UNLESS you think my game should be available for free for anyone and they should also be able to print and sell it (or sell the PDF) without my signature in a contract...

So are my games a product or an idea?


You're still insisting it's the inputs that determine the market price.


Where the fuck do I say that or anything resembling that? I bet you're talking about this : "In market X a plumber can charge Y for it's time plus materials while in market P a plumber can charge Y+10% for it's time plus materials.

When the plumber is giving you an estimate, he is including his time/work into the calculation."

How the fuck do you take that as the complete oppossite of what it says?

That's false. If you spend $1 million making someone nobody wants, then you'll sell zero. If you calculate you'll sell a 1,000 units of another product in the first month at $20, and you only sell 100, then there's a problem with your calculation and you'll have to adjust. You might have to cut the price, even below the manufacturing cost, in order to clear your inventory. Your company might go bankrupt as a result. You might have to abort future production lines.

Entrepreneurs try to predict the market, but the price is determined by the market, not them. This is literally economics 101.


Maybe they sound silly because they only exist in your head? And to prove me wrong you could quote qhere I say that shit.

You keep making these silly demands for citations, when I'm literally quoting and replying to the posts where you keep making these arguments.

Then it shouldn't be that hard to prove I ever demanded "(the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it)". So please go ahead and do so.

"Once again: YOU don't have the right to PROFIT from my work without a voluntary exchange of money between us." Not true, and there are too many exceptions to list. For a few examples, what about freeware? Or scientific papers published in journals? Or derivative works? Or copyright or other legal protections lapsing? Or things that aren't covered by the various intellectual property laws, like typefaces? Or work done as part of self-promotion, like an assessment provided to a company that's looking to hire someone with your expertise? (I put in a lot of hours I'm not directly compensated for trying to drum up new clients.) Or stuff that's provided fee to the end user, because it's the end user being monetized? Or what about inadvertent beneficial effects, like the smells wafting from a bakery, or raising property values of your neighbors by mowing your lawn and kicking out all the crack addicts? What about non-monetary exchange, like say you're sued and as part the settlement you have to grant then a license? And that's all assuming a legal protection is a right, or the current system is correct, both of which are extremely dubious assertions. You're stuck on the concept that your rights are being infringed, but you haven't really defined the right or where it comes from.

Freeware... Something released under an open license, you're really arguing that is something that proves me wrong... When I said "It is infringed if someone takes their shit and profits from it without a contract and an exchange of money (unless the dumbass signed the rights away for free)."

Right, because me saying "Once again: YOU don't have the right to PROFIT from my work without a voluntary exchange of money between us." Is totally the same as smells wafthing from a bakery or any of the other examples you try to use to prove me wrong. But you're totally not trying to win an argument... Which is why you use logical falacies like false equivalence and strawman in this argument.

And yes, if you write a game and sell it, it's a product. And an idea. This is a place where we're talking past each other, because you see a conflict and I don't.


But there is a conflict, especially because an idea is "lets write a pulp game" While my finished game isn't that, it's the expresion of an idea, MINE AND a finished product. You're free to write your own pulp game and sell it, you're not free to sell mine without a signed contract between us and a voluntary exchange of money for goods/services.

And no, I'm not trying to "win" an argument. I consider that a futile exercise. I'm trying to explain my position in a way that you can understand. That's why I always return to first principles and try to explain my position in another way, instead of just taking cheap shots. (I only take cheap shots when the other person fires a broadside, first. Like you calling me and everyone else communists, Precious Che Princess.) You don't have to agree, but it's nice when somebody occasionally groks what I'm saying.

Except you totally are as I proved above.

Bolding mine, fuck you.

I suspect it's pointless, in this case. You seem to be arguing from a position of moral outrage, and that's not something that can be rationally addressed. But I will suggest again that you consider reading the books I recommend in my last post. You're missing a few key economic principles, and they might help you frame your arguments.

Ad hominem, strawman & appeal to authority.

You keep doing the creative quoting, you keep reading what I say as the polar oppossite of what's written, I'm gonna assume it's because you lack reading comprehension. Either that or it's out of malice.

Either way I agree on one thing, it's pointless to argue with you.

Have a nice day.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 3911
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #504 on: October 14, 2021, 08:35:49 PM »
I answered everything you demanded already, GeekyBugle. Whereas you still haven't explained the basis for any of the "rights" you're claiming. Since you're not addressing any of my points and keep (falsely) accusing me of using all the nasty techniques and fallacies you keep using, I agree. There's really no point in continuing this argument.

But consider reading some economics. You're functionally illiterate on the subject. That isn't intended as an insult, because most people are. It tends to be skipped in school, which is a shame, because it's pretty fundamental and a lot of the conclusions are non-obvious.

Have a nice day as well.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 08:37:51 PM by Pat »

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #505 on: October 14, 2021, 08:51:10 PM »
I answered everything you demanded already, GeekyBugle. Whereas you still haven't explained the basis for any of the "rights" you're claiming. Since you're not addressing any of my points and keep (falsely) accusing me of using all the nasty techniques and fallacies you keep using, I agree. There's really no point in continuing this argument.

But consider reading some economics. You're functionally illiterate on the subject. That isn't intended as an insult, because most people are. It tends to be skipped in school, which is a shame, because it's pretty fundamental and a lot of the conclusions are non-obvious.

Have a nice day as well.

Except you never proved ANYTHING like what you say I did: Creative Quoting

You also said to drop the cheap shots, and then didn't: Fuck you

You insist on your logical fallacies to win the argument: For your peace of mind (You won, you totally pwned me).

No go pester someone else, say Hi to Oddbrain in the ignore list.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9416
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #506 on: October 14, 2021, 09:17:26 PM »
Pat, I thought this was a very eloquent point.

It's because physical resources are scarce that someone must own them all. Because if everyone owns something, you get the tragedy of the commons. The resource in question will either be overexploited or trashed, because there's no incentive to take the the extra effort to clean up or maintain or ensure something is continually productive when you only have a tiny share of it. Conversely, a person who owns it and thus has full claim to all the future benefits of it, has every incentive to ensure the soil isn't depleted or the huge trash piles are removed. Since it's better cared for it, it's more productive. And when all of those resources are connected in a free market economy, the resources will distributed to theri more productive use. So ownership ensures all the resources in the world are put to their best uses. That's the whole point of property.

I think it's a good explanation about the difference between IP and physical property.

Regarding GeekyBugle's labor explanation:

I've said many times that part of the investment of a creative product IS work/effort/labor and also that you don't owe me a cent for that. Unless you want to use what I made, then you have to pay the price I deem correct for my product.

Do you seriously think a mason doesn't include his labor as part of the price for building a house? Or the plumber for fixing your drains? Are they socialists too?
Once again: YOU don't have the right to PROFIT from my work without a voluntary exchange of money between us.

That doesn't mean you owe me shit, but it also doesn't mean you can just take my shit and profit from it without my say so & said voluntary exchange of money.

First of all, there's an ambiguity about RIGHTS here. According to current copyright law, those who own a copyright have a legal right to prevent anyone else from printing the same or derivative material. So yes, under current U.S. (and other Berne Convention countries), you have the right to exclusive profit from your written work.


However, that's different from moral/ethical right.


As for a mason's work -- that depends on a *contract*. A mason can't just do a bunch of work and then demand money from you. You have to agree to pay for him to do that work. Simply doing the work and making an investment is *not* a guarantee that the mason has exclusive rights and can demand money from others. So yes, I do have a right to profit from the work of others. I can't *force* them to do work, but they can't *force* me to pay them just for what I do.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #507 on: October 14, 2021, 09:34:52 PM »
Pat, I thought this was a very eloquent point.

It's because physical resources are scarce that someone must own them all. Because if everyone owns something, you get the tragedy of the commons. The resource in question will either be overexploited or trashed, because there's no incentive to take the the extra effort to clean up or maintain or ensure something is continually productive when you only have a tiny share of it. Conversely, a person who owns it and thus has full claim to all the future benefits of it, has every incentive to ensure the soil isn't depleted or the huge trash piles are removed. Since it's better cared for it, it's more productive. And when all of those resources are connected in a free market economy, the resources will distributed to theri more productive use. So ownership ensures all the resources in the world are put to their best uses. That's the whole point of property.

I think it's a good explanation about the difference between IP and physical property.

Regarding GeekyBugle's labor explanation:

I've said many times that part of the investment of a creative product IS work/effort/labor and also that you don't owe me a cent for that. Unless you want to use what I made, then you have to pay the price I deem correct for my product.

Do you seriously think a mason doesn't include his labor as part of the price for building a house? Or the plumber for fixing your drains? Are they socialists too?
Once again: YOU don't have the right to PROFIT from my work without a voluntary exchange of money between us.

That doesn't mean you owe me shit, but it also doesn't mean you can just take my shit and profit from it without my say so & said voluntary exchange of money.

First of all, there's an ambiguity about RIGHTS here. According to current copyright law, those who own a copyright have a legal right to prevent anyone else from printing the same or derivative material. So yes, under current U.S. (and other Berne Convention countries), you have the right to exclusive profit from your written work.


However, that's different from moral/ethical right.


As for a mason's work -- that depends on a *contract*. A mason can't just do a bunch of work and then demand money from you. You have to agree to pay for him to do that work. Simply doing the work and making an investment is *not* a guarantee that the mason has exclusive rights and can demand money from others. So yes, I do have a right to profit from the work of others. I can't *force* them to do work, but they can't *force* me to pay them just for what I do.

Do you know many masons that go willy nilly building houses without a contract into land they don't own and then try to charge the owner of the land for the work done?

OF COURSE you need a contract!, that's so obvious I thought nobody would think it needs clarifying.

So no, you don't have a right to profit from the work of others without a signed contract that gives you the right (either by paying or for free as in an open license).

Lets say you own a restaurant, you're benefiting from the work of others in 2 ways:

Your clients work by selling them goods/services in exchange for their money.

Your employees by paying them to do work so you can sell food to your clients.

The first one is an implicit contract, the client agrees to pay for your stuff without the need to signing anything.

The second one better be a writen, signed and registered contract to avoid trouble.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 3911
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #508 on: October 14, 2021, 09:40:15 PM »
I answered everything you demanded already, GeekyBugle. Whereas you still haven't explained the basis for any of the "rights" you're claiming. Since you're not addressing any of my points and keep (falsely) accusing me of using all the nasty techniques and fallacies you keep using, I agree. There's really no point in continuing this argument.

But consider reading some economics. You're functionally illiterate on the subject. That isn't intended as an insult, because most people are. It tends to be skipped in school, which is a shame, because it's pretty fundamental and a lot of the conclusions are non-obvious.

Have a nice day as well.

Except you never proved ANYTHING like what you say I did: Creative Quoting

You also said to drop the cheap shots, and then didn't: Fuck you

You insist on your logical fallacies to win the argument: For your peace of mind (You won, you totally pwned me).

No go pester someone else, say Hi to Oddbrain in the ignore list.
You were baking the labor value theory into each post. I quoted them, and pointed them out. I provided you the citations you demanded in each of those posts.

I said I'd drop the cheat shots if you would. You didn't, so I didn't. (Even though I toned them down.) So fuck you.

I am not trying to win any argument. I just told you that. I don't give a fuck about pwning anyone.

It's amazing this thread turned into such an emotional trainwreck.

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 3911
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #509 on: October 14, 2021, 09:52:58 PM »
Do you know many masons that go willy nilly building houses without a contract into land they don't own and then try to charge the owner of the land for the work done?
I have a good example of that happening, just a month or so ago: A friend hired a company to put up a fence. They sent someone out to assess the property, measured out where the fence was going to go, and wrote up a work order. Then the day the crew came put in the fence, my friend got a call from his wife, who didn't know what to do because the supervisor of the crew was demanding $3000 more than they had agreed on. Turns out, they mismeasured the property. It was longer than their guy had measured, so it used up a lot more wood. And the crew chief didn't check with anyone, they just put in the whole fence, and then demanded more money.

This happens all the time with contractors. With healthcare. With car repairs....