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Author Topic: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs  (Read 47511 times)

Ocule

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #480 on: October 13, 2021, 12:34:26 PM »
What about the fact that digital copies don’t actually deprive the creator of anything if they’re copied. For theft you have to actually lose something don’t you? And there is no limited resource a source of PDFs doesn’t run out.

With the farming analogy you have the farmers yield a crop. If you buy fruit from a farmer, keep the seeds and plant them in your garden are you stealing?
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #481 on: October 13, 2021, 12:53:16 PM »
What about the fact that digital copies don’t actually deprive the creator of anything if they’re copied.
Why is depriving the creator of anything part of the argument? Why is the creator creating anything a reason for why you can't have what they made. Why does a creator get to claim 'Ownership' forever and get to pass that on to homever he likes for the end of time for finding or making something first. Before he had the materials, they where free and uncliamed, but suddenly he has this holy right to the items?

Why does he have the right to deprive others.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #482 on: October 13, 2021, 01:32:25 PM »
<extensive nested quoting snipped>
I'm not sure I buy your reasoning, but it's interesting enough that I need to chew on it a bit before I respond to it.

(I also need to watch the Kinsella stuff, haven't had the chance.)

On a more 'same shit different day' note, someone tried to establish a mirror for the Trove. Went about as well as you can expect. Between bots from r/OpenDirectories hammering it, and a barrage of DMCA notices, they had to shut it down again.


Zalman

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #483 on: October 13, 2021, 01:37:34 PM »
Consider that both sides of a football game have an opportunity to win. Neither side has a "right" to win. If one team uses a new trick play to score, and the other team copies that play later in the game (and also scores!), did they deny the first team an opportunity to win?
Considering that the whole point of a football game is to win (and by extension, deny the other team the opportunity to win), not sure this is a great analogy.

Considering that the whole point of trying to profit from your work is to make money, I'm baffled as to why you think the analogy is any different.

Edit: Never mind, I see now the disingenuous reasoning. Obviously "winning" the game doesn't deny your opponent the same opportunity since the game is over at that point. Both sides had the same opportunity.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 01:40:32 PM by Zalman »
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Oddend

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #484 on: October 13, 2021, 02:08:24 PM »
<extensive nested quoting snipped>
I'm not sure I buy your reasoning, but it's interesting enough that I need to chew on it a bit before I respond to it.

(I also need to watch the Kinsella stuff, haven't had the chance.)

Based.

By the way, he's usually talking to libertarians, so he'll make comments about "in a stateless society" and whatnot, which might make you cringe. Don't let it put you off from hearing him out; you don't have to buy into any kind of anarchism to buy into his arguments against IP (you just have to agree on the everyday notion that property rights are a thing and that violating them is bad).

Ghostmaker

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #485 on: October 13, 2021, 02:10:12 PM »
<extensive nested quoting snipped>
I'm not sure I buy your reasoning, but it's interesting enough that I need to chew on it a bit before I respond to it.

(I also need to watch the Kinsella stuff, haven't had the chance.)

Based.

By the way, he's usually talking to libertarians, so he'll make comments about "in a stateless society" and whatnot, which might make you cringe. Don't let it put you off from hearing him out; you don't have to buy into any kind of anarchism to buy into his arguments against IP (you just have to agree on the everyday notion that property rights are a thing and that violating them is bad).
There's nothing wrong with libertarianism. But a stateless society will require not just a technological evolution but a sociological one as well.

I liked L. Neil Smith's writings, but man I thought he was optimistic as fuck :)

Ghostmaker

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #486 on: October 13, 2021, 02:12:49 PM »
Consider that both sides of a football game have an opportunity to win. Neither side has a "right" to win. If one team uses a new trick play to score, and the other team copies that play later in the game (and also scores!), did they deny the first team an opportunity to win?
Considering that the whole point of a football game is to win (and by extension, deny the other team the opportunity to win), not sure this is a great analogy.

Considering that the whole point of trying to profit from your work is to make money, I'm baffled as to why you think the analogy is any different.

Edit: Never mind, I see now the disingenuous reasoning. Obviously "winning" the game doesn't deny your opponent the same opportunity since the game is over at that point. Both sides had the same opportunity.
There's always next week.

Conflating sports with economics strikes me as a very odd way to go about things though.


Pat
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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #487 on: October 13, 2021, 02:13:33 PM »
bad behavior on your part, Shrieking Banshee.

Because I don't want to engage in conversation with somebody who is dismissive of me? I can take being called names or taking insults but I just have not found it to ever be a good use of my time to debate with somebody that is ultimatly only there to speak AT me.

As for science, my view doesn't preclude humans making judgements and observations, but our science is not a perfect complete thing. And thus all our observations are still channeled through our imperfect worldview. To be clear Im not a subjectivist or anti-science. Im saying we should take our irrationality at face value, and still value our observations. But placing rationality on a pedestal is whats being used to tear science down. Instead of taking science with a grain of salt, its being compared to an abstract impossible ideal (of rationality), and being torn down in turn.

Anyway as to how this relates to IP law: All rights and property are fundementally arbitrary if examined through a lens of rationality. You are ultimatly picking whats real or not real based on personal preference.
I pointed out that Oddend and I have had endured dozens of pages of random and vicious insults, while remaining mostly civil. You basically said we need to just suck it up. Both Oddend and I pointed out that if we have to suck all that up, you should be expected to suck up an occasional minor insult. And then you stomped off. Rules for thee but not for me is bad behavior.

Regarding the rest of the topic, I see Oddend's point. None of what you just brought up really has anything to do with intellectual protections. You're not talking about IP, you're talking about the limits of reason and what can be known to be true. It's epistemology. Which isn't a discussion I'm interested in having, because I find epistemology to be a pointless exercise in navel gazing.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #488 on: October 13, 2021, 02:29:37 PM »
You're not talking about IP, you're talking about the limits of reason and what can be known to be true.

Which makes me understand you, your philosophy and conclusions wholesale. I think Im done with this topic at all.

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #489 on: October 13, 2021, 02:37:40 PM »
Playing devils advocate for commies:

Isn’t ownership over physical goods just as much an unenforceable idea? Because you found it first you now have some claim to an abstract territory or item?

Except in terms of denying society opportunity, denying a physical good is worse. Because it IS scarce, you are denying vital necessity to others based on nothing but an idea if ownership or use of force.
It's called "homesteading" in some circles. The first person to claim and use a resource, which could be land or something like radio bands, gets ownership.

Though whenever you come up with a new society that enforces property rights in the exact way you prefer, you also have to deal with all the people who already owned stuff, in the earlier system. The typical way this is handled is they get to keep their stuff, but no special privileges. This is pragmatic, rather than fair. A bunch of nobles whose great to the Nth grandads were really good at killing people and taking their stuff don't deserve more than the peasants they've subjugated for generations. But the alternative is social chaos and disruption, potentially leading to the overthrow of everything, like the French Revolution. The reason this is considered an acceptable compromise is the allocation of resources throughout society isn't static. It changes, and as long as the government isn't handing out special privileges like a cronyist fairy, in a couple generations resources will shift to those are best able to use them for the benefit of others.

And you're missing the point of scarcity. It's because physical resources are scarce that someone must own them all. Because if everyone owns something, you get the tragedy of the commons. The resource in question will either be overexploited or trashed, because there's no incentive to take the the extra effort to clean up or maintain or ensure something is continually productive when you only have a tiny share of it. Conversely, a person who owns it and thus has full claim to all the future benefits of it, has every incentive to ensure the soil isn't depleted or the huge trash piles are removed. Since it's better cared for it, it's more productive. And when all of those resources are connected in a free market economy, the resources will distributed to theri more productive use. So ownership ensures all the resources in the world are put to their best uses. That's the whole point of property.

Conversely, with ideas, there's no such restriction. Ideas don't need maintenance, and aren't depleted by overuse.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #490 on: October 13, 2021, 07:53:46 PM »
But the estate exists, megacorporations exist, now how can we solve the problem without giving all the advantages to megacorporations?

Your "solution" doesn't work because money is power, you can't make a blockbuster movie because you lack the money, you can't print at the same volumes Hasbro can, you can't develop all of the related stuff Hasbro can based on your game at the speed they can.

You can't out compete them, therefore the evul state created evul IP laws need to exist and they need to be such as to protect the little guy. I agree this isn't always the case currently. Star Trek Discovery STOLE from a guy most of the stuff they did different than the true Trek (the blue tardigrade? Most of their characters on the first season?). And he lost the law suit.

So I do agree the law needs changing, but you want to either abolish it or make it so the little guy gets fucked in the ass harder.

So what is your solution? You claim I'm an asshole thieving communist because my "solution" doesn't work. Other than parroting exactly what Disney wants (like perpetual copyright), what do you think will help?


From my side, I've never claimed anything as a "solution", and no, I don't think that decreasing copyright term will instantly "solve" megacorporations. It's just one piece of a bigger issue about how the legal system gives massive advantage to whoever has the most lawyers.  ​In general, I think a lot of the current U.S. regulatory laws - including IP - are designed in detail to favor big corporations by excessive complexity, loopholes, and other nuances. These favor only big corporations with powerful legal departments.

Reducing the power of corporations won't have a single do-all solution. I'm doubtful that it will happen at all, but if it does, it would be because we get enough anti-corporate sentiment such that some people who are anti-corporate get elected. Then they overhaul the laws to be simpler and fairer.

Please do quote exactly where I call you "an asshole thieving communist".

Because this is another example of your "creative quoting technique".
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jhkim

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #491 on: October 13, 2021, 08:21:40 PM »
But the estate exists, megacorporations exist, now how can we solve the problem without giving all the advantages to megacorporations?

Your "solution" doesn't work because money is power, you can't make a blockbuster movie because you lack the money, you can't print at the same volumes Hasbro can, you can't develop all of the related stuff Hasbro can based on your game at the speed they can.

You can't out compete them, therefore the evul state created evul IP laws need to exist and they need to be such as to protect the little guy. I agree this isn't always the case currently. Star Trek Discovery STOLE from a guy most of the stuff they did different than the true Trek (the blue tardigrade? Most of their characters on the first season?). And he lost the law suit.

So I do agree the law needs changing, but you want to either abolish it or make it so the little guy gets fucked in the ass harder.

So what is your solution? You claim I'm an asshole thieving communist because my "solution" doesn't work. Other than parroting exactly what Disney wants (like perpetual copyright), what do you think will help?


From my side, I've never claimed anything as a "solution", and no, I don't think that decreasing copyright term will instantly "solve" megacorporations. It's just one piece of a bigger issue about how the legal system gives massive advantage to whoever has the most lawyers.  ​In general, I think a lot of the current U.S. regulatory laws - including IP - are designed in detail to favor big corporations by excessive complexity, loopholes, and other nuances. These favor only big corporations with powerful legal departments.

Reducing the power of corporations won't have a single do-all solution. I'm doubtful that it will happen at all, but if it does, it would be because we get enough anti-corporate sentiment such that some people who are anti-corporate get elected. Then they overhaul the laws to be simpler and fairer.

Please do quote exactly where I call you "an asshole thieving communist".

Because this is another example of your "creative quoting technique".

Fair enough. I'm sorry for saying that about you. There has been a lot of hostility in this discussion, and I have fallen into adding to it.

I would still be interested in what you think should be done about corporate power.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #492 on: October 13, 2021, 08:31:45 PM »
But the estate exists, megacorporations exist, now how can we solve the problem without giving all the advantages to megacorporations?

Your "solution" doesn't work because money is power, you can't make a blockbuster movie because you lack the money, you can't print at the same volumes Hasbro can, you can't develop all of the related stuff Hasbro can based on your game at the speed they can.

You can't out compete them, therefore the evul state created evul IP laws need to exist and they need to be such as to protect the little guy. I agree this isn't always the case currently. Star Trek Discovery STOLE from a guy most of the stuff they did different than the true Trek (the blue tardigrade? Most of their characters on the first season?). And he lost the law suit.

So I do agree the law needs changing, but you want to either abolish it or make it so the little guy gets fucked in the ass harder.

So what is your solution? You claim I'm an asshole thieving communist because my "solution" doesn't work. Other than parroting exactly what Disney wants (like perpetual copyright), what do you think will help?


From my side, I've never claimed anything as a "solution", and no, I don't think that decreasing copyright term will instantly "solve" megacorporations. It's just one piece of a bigger issue about how the legal system gives massive advantage to whoever has the most lawyers.  ​In general, I think a lot of the current U.S. regulatory laws - including IP - are designed in detail to favor big corporations by excessive complexity, loopholes, and other nuances. These favor only big corporations with powerful legal departments.

Reducing the power of corporations won't have a single do-all solution. I'm doubtful that it will happen at all, but if it does, it would be because we get enough anti-corporate sentiment such that some people who are anti-corporate get elected. Then they overhaul the laws to be simpler and fairer.

Please do quote exactly where I call you "an asshole thieving communist".

Because this is another example of your "creative quoting technique".

Fair enough. I'm sorry for saying that about you. There has been a lot of hostility in this discussion, and I have fallen into adding to it.

I would still be interested in what you think should be done about corporate power.

I already stated what my position was regarding reforming IP law several pages back, well before some posters started calling ME a slaver, thief and socialist.

Basically find a happy medium where the author retains the rights (can reclaim them from a corporation without legal recourse) is protected from corporations just taking his shit and running with it and maybe can inherit to the sons.

Probably less than forever and certainly more than 2 years as someone proposed (Estar, Pat or Oddend I think). You usually retire at 65, lets say then 50 years and if you die then it's inherited by your heirs. This puts you at 70 if you published at 20 and in your grave if you published at 40-50 with your heirs getting the remainder.

But this caused a cascade of caustic acid to be droped on me. I'm not sure I want to be in the same camp as THOSE people.

So I might seriously be on the forever camp now. Especially if that would cause the "It's just an idea man!" people to loose their shit.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Shasarak

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #493 on: October 13, 2021, 11:26:38 PM »
Given the objections you've just presented to my arguments (i.e. demanding logical consistency), I really do genuinely think you would enjoy this talk by Kinsella (again, rather than "read the thread, REEEE"). It includes a great Q&A and hits on everything discussed in this thread, from a radically anti-communist point of view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfU34KkNV1s

Ignore the hippie vibe of the venue branding. He's not associated with them, it's just a venue.

Kinsella puts forward some compelling arguments for the anti-IP side.

Does the pro-IP side have any response why they should have lifetime protection?
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Pat
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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #494 on: October 14, 2021, 01:14:19 AM »
I already stated what my position was regarding reforming IP law several pages back, well before some posters started calling ME a slaver, thief and socialist.

Basically find a happy medium where the author retains the rights (can reclaim them from a corporation without legal recourse) is protected from corporations just taking his shit and running with it and maybe can inherit to the sons.

Probably less than forever and certainly more than 2 years as someone proposed (Estar, Pat or Oddend I think). You usually retire at 65, lets say then 50 years and if you die then it's inherited by your heirs. This puts you at 70 if you published at 20 and in your grave if you published at 40-50 with your heirs getting the remainder.

But this caused a cascade of caustic acid to be droped on me. I'm not sure I want to be in the same camp as THOSE people.

So I might seriously be on the forever camp now. Especially if that would cause the "It's just an idea man!" people to loose their shit.
You were the one who started calling everyone communists and socialists and thieves. And then I pointed out that one the major planks in your argument (the right to be paid based on the effort you put into it) was straight from Karl Marx.

Also, the 2 years was a joke. I was a response to you saying you wanted the term of copyright protections extended to forever. I also said it once. You've said forever probably a dozen times.

Another person who can dish it out, but can't take it. Rules for thee, but not for me. Where have we seen that before?