Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 07:03:12 PM
Another thing I'm doing is formatting it myself. It's sorta hard to learn to but nothing impossible if you know your way around a word processor.

What are you using for formatting? I've seen a number of tools for book layout and so on but most of them seem kind of rubbish. I'm going to try using LaTeX, but I am curious how it will handle images and whatnot.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 05, 2021, 06:43:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:38:04 PM
This assumes that every PDF will keep selling steadily forever, which I'm sure is not true. For most PDF products, there is only a small number of copies (far less than a million) that you will sell ever. The sales in the first two years might be 80% of the sales ever. Thus, leaving it on the catalogs for another ten years might not change the total sales by more than a tiny fraction. Once the core market of users is reached, additional sales get less and less likely.

Perhaps pdf releases could be set to have their price lowered over time. Full cost for 1st year of release, 25% off for the next two years, 50% off for two more, and then free after 5 years...

Just random percents and time blocks, but it's just a rough idea.

I suspect that this would result in a lot of the core audience waiting until the price drops to get their copy. So the total number of copies sold is the same, but the sales happen later and at a lower price. Also, since there are fewer initial sales, it's probably harder to get an early buzz about the game.

As for cost of print vs PDF -- it seems to me that in non-RPG books, e-books are similar in price to paperback - usually only 10% less or so. And overall, I don't feel like RPG designers are overpaid for their time.

I think one problem might be international pricing. In physical books, I suspect that copies sell for less in some locations based on the local economy. Do RPG books in Mexico sell for less than in the U.S.?  It's at least possible. With PDFs, though, the price is always the same.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 06:56:10 PM
So selling it at $10 bucks gives you what? Lets say 100,000 total units ever (I doubt your assertions since you don't provide anything to back them but lets run with them),

What!?  Getting the overwhelming majority of your sales in the first few years of release of a product is business 101.

It just a part of the business cycle that anyone who has done run rates on product inventory over time for a business has seen for themselves.

Runaway hits like what has happened with 5e are the exception. Not the rule.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 06:56:10 PM

DriveThru best sellers:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php

Mind you those aren't great numbers but that doesn't mean that a PDF at $40 is justified. Especially since many fund the game by crowdfunding.

ROTFL - R.Talsorian is absolutely trying to milk it with Cyberpunk Red... WTF that's crazy for a PDF! LOL!!! Their PDF should be no more than $20.00 or a touch less...

You can shoot yourself in the foot by pricing yourself out of the buying threshold of the majority of your customers. Or by Pricing yourself so low that volume does not give you sufficient return in a timely manner to meet continued overhead costs.

This is why most businesses try and Calculate/SWAG the price threshold that will give them the best ROI: Not so high that the lack of sales is not made up by the high cost. And not so low that the volume of sales does not make up for the discounted price. But that sweet spot that gives you the best sales ROI in a timely manner.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 07:03:12 PM

Yeah, make your RPGBOOK_SampleEdition.pdf with ZERO art beyond the cover I would think, at least in my first crowdfunding campaign it's how I'm going to make it. every backer from 5$ and above gets this right away, to show the game is complete and only needs the art.
...

That should be a requirement for all Crowdfunding/Kickstarter RPG efforts. Even if it is in some word file and still needs formatting. Just showing that the game/supplement/scenario is not vaporware buys a ton of goodwill.

Plus it give you the possibility of additional playtesting amongst your backers for a time.

Quote from: Zelen on October 05, 2021, 07:25:19 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 07:03:12 PM
Another thing I'm doing is formatting it myself. It's sorta hard to learn to but nothing impossible if you know your way around a word processor.

What are you using for formatting? I've seen a number of tools for book layout and so on but most of them seem kind of rubbish. I'm going to try using LaTeX, but I am curious how it will handle images and whatnot.

I'm using mainly OpenOffice Writer, but I'm learning to use Scribus, the open source answer to InDesign.

https://www.scribus.net/

I'll probably end up with a workflow like this: Writer -> Scribus

Writer is superior for PDF design IMHO, and it gives you automatic hyperlinked index. Need to learn to make my own hyperlinks to be able to reference/link to a certain part of the document from other places than the index.

Edited to add:

Was it Exemplars and Eidolons the one that gave you the InDesign files to use as templates?

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 07:30:40 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 05, 2021, 06:43:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:38:04 PM
This assumes that every PDF will keep selling steadily forever, which I'm sure is not true. For most PDF products, there is only a small number of copies (far less than a million) that you will sell ever. The sales in the first two years might be 80% of the sales ever. Thus, leaving it on the catalogs for another ten years might not change the total sales by more than a tiny fraction. Once the core market of users is reached, additional sales get less and less likely.

Perhaps pdf releases could be set to have their price lowered over time. Full cost for 1st year of release, 25% off for the next two years, 50% off for two more, and then free after 5 years...

Just random percents and time blocks, but it's just a rough idea.

I suspect that this would result in a lot of the core audience waiting until the price drops to get their copy. So the total number of copies sold is the same, but the sales happen later and at a lower price. Also, since there are fewer initial sales, it's probably harder to get an early buzz about the game.

As for cost of print vs PDF -- it seems to me that in non-RPG books, e-books are similar in price to paperback - usually only 10% less or so. And overall, I don't feel like RPG designers are overpaid for their time.

I think one problem might be international pricing. In physical books, I suspect that copies sell for less in some locations based on the local economy. Do RPG books in Mexico sell for less than in the U.S.?  It's at least possible. With PDFs, though, the price is always the same.

Never thought of making the comparison, what's in it to gain? (For me as a customer I mean)

In Amazon The Wild Beyond the Witchlight: A Feywild Adventure hard cover goes for $715.69 pesos or $34.79 US funny money.

You tell me if it's the same price or not.

Quote from: Jaeger on October 05, 2021, 07:30:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 06:56:10 PM
So selling it at $10 bucks gives you what? Lets say 100,000 total units ever (I doubt your assertions since you don't provide anything to back them but lets run with them),

What!?  Getting the overwhelming majority of your sales in the first few years of release of a product is business 101.

It just a part of the business cycle that anyone who has done run rates on product inventory over time for a business has seen for themselves.

Runaway hits like what has happened with 5e are the exception. Not the rule.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 06:56:10 PM

DriveThru best sellers:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php

Mind you those aren't great numbers but that doesn't mean that a PDF at $40 is justified. Especially since many fund the game by crowdfunding.

ROTFL - R.Talsorian is absolutely trying to milk it with Cyberpunk Red... WTF that's crazy for a PDF! LOL!!! Their PDF should be no more than $20.00 or a touch less...

You can shoot yourself in the foot by pricing yourself out of the buying threshold of the majority of your customers. Or by Pricing yourself so low that volume does not give you sufficient return in a timely manner to meet continued overhead costs.

This is why most businesses try and Calculate/SWAG the price threshold that will give them the best ROI: Not so high that the lack of sales is not made up by the high cost. And not so low that the volume of sales does not make up for the discounted price. But that sweet spot that gives you the best sales ROI in a timely manner.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 07:03:12 PM

Yeah, make your RPGBOOK_SampleEdition.pdf with ZERO art beyond the cover I would think, at least in my first crowdfunding campaign it's how I'm going to make it. every backer from 5$ and above gets this right away, to show the game is complete and only needs the art.
...

That should be a requirement for all Crowdfunding/Kickstarter RPG efforts. Even if it is in some word file and still needs formatting. Just showing that the game/supplement/scenario is not vaporware buys a ton of goodwill.

Plus it give you the possibility of additional playtesting amongst your backers for a time.

Wait, I'm getting mixed signals here, are some PDFs overpriced or not?

I said that IMHO most are, but most aren't R.Talsorian either, but small/unknown publishers. If I don't know you I'm not going to fork over $20 US to see if your game is any good.

On the Crowdfunding stuff, YES, it should be a requirement, I fork $5 or more I get the basic bitch PDF with no art and no hyperlinks. Then when the campaign ends and the product is done every backer gets whatever they should by their tier.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 07:49:42 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 07:30:40 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 05, 2021, 06:43:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:38:04 PM
This assumes that every PDF will keep selling steadily forever, which I'm sure is not true. For most PDF products, there is only a small number of copies (far less than a million) that you will sell ever. The sales in the first two years might be 80% of the sales ever. Thus, leaving it on the catalogs for another ten years might not change the total sales by more than a tiny fraction. Once the core market of users is reached, additional sales get less and less likely.

Perhaps pdf releases could be set to have their price lowered over time. Full cost for 1st year of release, 25% off for the next two years, 50% off for two more, and then free after 5 years...

Just random percents and time blocks, but it's just a rough idea.

I suspect that this would result in a lot of the core audience waiting until the price drops to get their copy. So the total number of copies sold is the same, but the sales happen later and at a lower price. Also, since there are fewer initial sales, it's probably harder to get an early buzz about the game.

As for cost of print vs PDF -- it seems to me that in non-RPG books, e-books are similar in price to paperback - usually only 10% less or so. And overall, I don't feel like RPG designers are overpaid for their time.

I think one problem might be international pricing. In physical books, I suspect that copies sell for less in some locations based on the local economy. Do RPG books in Mexico sell for less than in the U.S.?  It's at least possible. With PDFs, though, the price is always the same.

Never thought of making the comparison, what's in it to gain? (For me as a customer I mean)

In Amazon The Wild Beyond the Witchlight: A Feywild Adventure hard cover goes for $715.69 pesos or $34.79 US funny money.

You tell me if it's the same price or not.

It's only $30.76 on Amazon here in the USA.

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:38:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 05:43:38 PM
Yes work goes into everythin, never said otherwise, but once you have the product you're not paying those costs anymore, hence why those are fixed costs.

So you can make some math and decide how many PDFs you want to sell to pay those costs. You can divide between 1 and a million, your costs remain the same, your marging too, you just take longer recuperating your initial investment.

This assumes that every PDF will keep selling steadily forever, which I'm sure is not true. For most PDF products, there is only a small number of copies (far less than a million) that you will sell ever. The sales in the first two years might be 80% of the sales ever. Thus, leaving it on the catalogs for another ten years might not change the total sales by more than a tiny fraction. Once the core market of users is reached, additional sales get less and less likely.

That's true if you sell one PDF and nothing more, but not if you develop a catalog. If you publish just 1 PDF a month, you'll have a dozen new products generating long tail sales every year, which can quickly add up as your catalog expands. And each of those new products is another gateway that can induce people to look at everything else you've published, further increasing the value of your catalog.

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 07:30:40 PM
I suspect that this would result in a lot of the core audience waiting until the price drops to get their copy. So the total number of copies sold is the same, but the sales happen later and at a lower price. Also, since there are fewer initial sales, it's probably harder to get an early buzz about the game.

That explains the lack of crowds when a new version of an iPhone comes out. People just stay at home and wait for the price to drop in a year or two. Right?

No. That's not how people work.

Quote from: Pat on October 05, 2021, 08:22:45 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:38:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 05:43:38 PM
Yes work goes into everythin, never said otherwise, but once you have the product you're not paying those costs anymore, hence why those are fixed costs.

So you can make some math and decide how many PDFs you want to sell to pay those costs. You can divide between 1 and a million, your costs remain the same, your marging too, you just take longer recuperating your initial investment.

This assumes that every PDF will keep selling steadily forever, which I'm sure is not true. For most PDF products, there is only a small number of copies (far less than a million) that you will sell ever. The sales in the first two years might be 80% of the sales ever. Thus, leaving it on the catalogs for another ten years might not change the total sales by more than a tiny fraction. Once the core market of users is reached, additional sales get less and less likely.

That's true if you sell one PDF and nothing more, but not if you develop a catalog. If you publish just 1 PDF a month, you'll have a dozen new products generating long tail sales every year, which can quickly add up as your catalog expands. And each of those new products is another gateway that can induce people to look at everything else you've published, further increasing the value of your catalog.

If only we knew of someone with an extense catalog who could tell us if his first stuff keeps selling and if his old stuff gets a boost in sales when he publishes something new.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 08:37:58 PM

Quote from: Pat on October 05, 2021, 08:22:45 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:38:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 05:43:38 PM
Yes work goes into everythin, never said otherwise, but once you have the product you're not paying those costs anymore, hence why those are fixed costs.

So you can make some math and decide how many PDFs you want to sell to pay those costs. You can divide between 1 and a million, your costs remain the same, your marging too, you just take longer recuperating your initial investment.

This assumes that every PDF will keep selling steadily forever, which I'm sure is not true. For most PDF products, there is only a small number of copies (far less than a million) that you will sell ever. The sales in the first two years might be 80% of the sales ever. Thus, leaving it on the catalogs for another ten years might not change the total sales by more than a tiny fraction. Once the core market of users is reached, additional sales get less and less likely.

That's true if you sell one PDF and nothing more, but not if you develop a catalog. If you publish just 1 PDF a month, you'll have a dozen new products generating long tail sales every year, which can quickly add up as your catalog expands. And each of those new products is another gateway that can induce people to look at everything else you've published, further increasing the value of your catalog.

If only we knew of someone with an extense catalog who could tell us if his first stuff keeps selling and if his old stuff gets a boost in sales when he publishes something new.

Shame nobody on this forum has published a series with, to pick a purely random number, 105 PDFs, isn't it?

I'm not part of the RPG industry, but another example of the concept in action is YouTube. You can find all kinds of videos by people with successful channels where they talk about the importance of building a catalog, how the videos cross-fertilize, and how much the long tail drives their overall views. Electronic publishing has a very different model than print.

Drivethru Adamantine Best Sellers list was interesting. Mainly battlemats and nostalgia D&D product, to a first approximation. Then Hero Kids, then a select handful of other core books (Cyberpunk Red, Savage Worlds, couple of Shadowrun editions). I would have thought Call of Cthulhu and Traveller would get more of a look-in.

And in at the end: Mythic GM Emulator. Kind of depressing. Immediate mental picture of a lot of middle aged guys with harassed lives sitting alone in the spare room after the kids have finally gone to sleep trying to recapture a whiff of the thrill they felt playing D&D 30 years ago.

When you have an older product that's not selling well anymore, you can give it a facelift and sell it again.

I really feel like Rob Conley (@estar) should weigh in here. I'm sure his insight would be very informative.

Creators do not owe the world free access to their creations.  If they want to give it away, that's fine; but they don't owe it to the world.