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Author Topic: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs  (Read 13212 times)

HappyDaze

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2021, 02:49:09 PM »
Geeky's playing at blaming the victim. "That pdf wouldn't have been pirated if she wasn't wearing such a high price tag." So classy.

Eric Diaz

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2021, 02:56:30 PM »
Let me disagree with everybody for a sec...

I was glad my books were pirated on the trove (although I was mildly annoyed that they were added to the wrong folder).

First, it means more people get to know them. I believe at least a few would purchase my products if they care to read it.

If they don't even read, why should I care I was pirated?

Also, if they don't have one or two dollars (or ten dollars at most) to buy my stuff... Hey, I hope they enjoy it, and I hope one day they can get enough disposable income to support me or other "indie" publishers.

If they don't, I'm glad I ws able to provide some fun.

BTW, if you have a blog etc. with some followers and want a free copy of any of my books for reviews let me know. As an amateur writer, my greatest enemy is not piracy but obscurity.

(nowadays, I don't pirate RPG stuff because I can buy almost everything I want on DTRPG. If something is too expensive I don't buy it. I have more PDFs than I'll ever read, let alone play. My friends, however, will occasionally pirate stuff, but unlike me they prefer physical copies and end up buying physical books if they really like the PDF).

I think it is only fitting that it was taken down by someone whose job is "largely inspired" by Warhammer (BTW GW will allegedly sue you for using the term "space marine"). My copy is homage, your copy is a crime!

EDIT: I don't discuss politics here but saying someone is "socialist" for attacking intelectual "property" is silly, since many libertarians and ancaps are against this on principle. You do not have the be  socialist to see there is something wrong with Disney lobbying to protect a mouse for 120 years after the creator has passed away, after using cinderella, sleeping beauty and everything else in the public domain. In fact IIRC trump was the one who avoided the TIPP that would create even more draconian IP laws with the help of China (while Hillary as in favor). Not to mention: free speech, HPL, REH, the coautl and the displacer beast, sending you to prison for downloading a song, etc etc etc.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 03:09:14 PM by Eric Diaz »
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2021, 03:00:45 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?
As someone who's looked at publishing costs recently, the physical printing costs are, at most 25% of the final product. All the rest of the price tag is the fixed costs that are indifferent to whether the copy is physical or digital (writing, art, editing, layouts, website hosting costs that need to be covered whether a single copy sells or not and which need to be factored into the final price per unit based on expected sales) and non-physical variable costs (ex. distribution... DrivethruRPG doesn't do it's thing for free... they take a significant percentage).

Honestly, a $15 pdf for a $20 physical book sounds about right for a product where the team behind it is hoping to break even (i.e. they make more money). Maybe if people didn't pirate so many pdfs there would be more copies we could expect to spread those fixed costs across... instead we get to spread $0 of fixed costs to those and need to charge more for the pdfs and physical books just to break even.

Or maybe if the PDF price was lower less ppl would pirate?

The fixed costs get paid at some point in your run, so after that those aren't an issue anymore. And yet the PDFs price remains the same.

Because it's the maximum price the market will support.

Your argument would make sense if your game as a living document and you would send me for free (or nearly) any and all future additions/modifications. As far as I know nobody does this.
At some point you make enough money at your job in a week to cover your expenses... and yet the amount you demand to be paid for your work remains the same.

How about as soon as soon as you make enough money in a week you tell your boss the rest of your work for the week is being done at no charge?

You sound exactly like every fucking self-entitled socialist on the planet... "You don't deserve to make money because I want something you've produced but don't want to actually have to pay for it."

Except it's not the same thing is it?

Once I've finished developing the game I'm not working on it anymore.

First time someone calls me a socialist... Grim would beg to disagree.
It is EXACTLY the same thing. You have declared that at a certain point I've made enough money on my product and you deserve to have it for free.

That is textbook socialism; which is another word for theft. You just don't like to think of yourself as a thief when you're taking someone's work without paying them for it.

The fixed costs get paid at some point in your run, so after that those aren't an issue anymore. And yet the PDFs price remains the same.

Because it's the maximum price the market will support.

Your argument would make sense if your game as a living document and you would send me for free (or nearly) any and all future additions/modifications. As far as I know nobody does this.

Yeah that's exactly what a socialist would say.
When you're saying it is WRONG for a publisher to charge what the market will bear... YES that is EXACTLY what a socialist would say. You my friend; are a socialist in denial.

Except I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying lowering it might help lower piracy dumbass.
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jeff37923

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2021, 03:04:28 PM »
I miss The Trove. I could find and download PDFs of games that are not only out of print, but prohibitively expensive to buy now (like the Ringworld RPG). There are also those companies that I refuse to give my money to because their representatives have publicly said that they hate me based upon my sexual orientation or skin color, so I can check out their products.


Pat

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2021, 03:20:15 PM »
It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?
Yes.

The "abandonware" argument is a moral one, not a legal one.

Pretty much. If you don't defend IPs ferociously, they slide right into the public domain. The ridiculous extensions Disney has gotten on their properties (via bribing congresscritters) just make it worse.
Not true, you don't have to defend copyright. Since 1989, you don't even have to claim it; it's automatic.

Disney is evil, tho.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2021, 03:36:13 PM »
It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?
Yes.

The "abandonware" argument is a moral one, not a legal one.
If it's a legal argument, then the property owner won't have any problem showing up to defend his copyright, correct?

Also, the law is shit, as I noted before.

Quote
Pretty much. If you don't defend IPs ferociously, they slide right into the public domain. The ridiculous extensions Disney has gotten on their properties (via bribing congresscritters) just make it worse.
Not true, you don't have to defend copyright. Since 1989, you don't even have to claim it; it's automatic.

Disney is evil, tho.
Yes and no. https://www.rothmanlawyer.com/defending-a-copyright-infringement-case/ (look, actual lawyers!)

A copyright must be registered before you file any claims or legal action against someone infringing. Think of it as staking and registering a land claim (actually, that comparison seems pretty apt).


Pat

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2021, 03:49:39 PM »
It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?
Yes.

The "abandonware" argument is a moral one, not a legal one.
If it's a legal argument, then the property owner won't have any problem showing up to defend his copyright, correct?

Also, the law is shit, as I noted before.
If they do, you'll lose.

Agree that the law is shit. The Berne convention was reasonable. Everything since has been the result of regulatory capture. The mice are steering the steamboat.

Quote
Pretty much. If you don't defend IPs ferociously, they slide right into the public domain. The ridiculous extensions Disney has gotten on their properties (via bribing congresscritters) just make it worse.
Not true, you don't have to defend copyright. Since 1989, you don't even have to claim it; it's automatic.

Disney is evil, tho.
Yes and no. https://www.rothmanlawyer.com/defending-a-copyright-infringement-case/ (look, actual lawyers!)

A copyright must be registered before you file any claims or legal action against someone infringing. Think of it as staking and registering a land claim (actually, that comparison seems pretty apt).
So? You claimed it would fall into the public domain, which doesn't happen. The registration of a copyright is purely a legal formality needed to file suit, because it doesn't matter if the violations happened before or the copyright was registered.

Svenhelgrim

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2021, 04:10:54 PM »
I have used The Trove to check out books before I bought them, and to electronically  back up my physical books.  But I always knew that one day the party would end. 

Looking at books before I bought them helped me make some great purchases. 

Ghostmaker

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2021, 04:21:57 PM »
It was also useful to chase down some obscure supplements that most people don't even have. Mayfair Games's Role Aids, for example.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?
Yes.

The "abandonware" argument is a moral one, not a legal one.
If it's a legal argument, then the property owner won't have any problem showing up to defend his copyright, correct?

Also, the law is shit, as I noted before.
If they do, you'll lose.

Agree that the law is shit. The Berne convention was reasonable. Everything since has been the result of regulatory capture. The mice are steering the steamboat.
I believe I already stated that, but if it makes you feel better...

Quote
Quote
Pretty much. If you don't defend IPs ferociously, they slide right into the public domain. The ridiculous extensions Disney has gotten on their properties (via bribing congresscritters) just make it worse.
Not true, you don't have to defend copyright. Since 1989, you don't even have to claim it; it's automatic.

Disney is evil, tho.
Yes and no. https://www.rothmanlawyer.com/defending-a-copyright-infringement-case/ (look, actual lawyers!)

A copyright must be registered before you file any claims or legal action against someone infringing. Think of it as staking and registering a land claim (actually, that comparison seems pretty apt).
So? You claimed it would fall into the public domain, which doesn't happen. The registration of a copyright is purely a legal formality needed to file suit, because it doesn't matter if the violations happened before or the copyright was registered.
Except that, yes, it can happen. Usually it's the result of generic use of a trademark ('Xerox' for example). But there are other instances, some as simple as forgetting to add the circle-c.

(Reference: https://www.knowmad.law/single-post/publicdomain )


Shasarak

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2021, 04:37:57 PM »
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs



There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Mishihari

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2021, 04:46:53 PM »
Oh no!  They can't get some one else's work for free!  How awful.  What a bunch of entitled gits.

The solution for the gits is obvious, though.  If they think content should be available for free, then they should put months and years of their life into making quality RPG products and then give it away.  Problem solved.

GriswaldTerrastone

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2021, 04:51:42 PM »
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTrove/comments/o7dpt9/what_happened_to_the_trove/

There's some real whoppers there. Now, they hate Daniel D. Fox, which is good, but for different reasons. The amount of entitled whining in there is something else. Apparently only rich kids could afford RPG's--who knew?

Here's one particular mouth breather justifying bad behavior:

Quote
I have a tremendous respect for the gaming community tolerating The Trove. The business model of book publishing is completely outdated in the digital era and needs complete overhaul. The gaming community should be inclusive to all regardless of economic means and globally regardless of country poverty.

The Trove has just forced game publishers authors etc to flex to a model of the future where you expect your work to be freely available and you make your money from people who want to pay you directly, people who can afford it, and people who want the premium printed versions and physical versions.

That does mean eliminsting tthe bloated middleman system of pre-digital publishing with all the parasites feeding off the actual creators.

The same dynamic is happening in music production. The music industry is in upheaval but smart musicians are setting up ways to adapt to a totally new model where their work gets widely available for free - and what artist or musician doesnt want their work to get heard seen or read - and they get paid more directly for premium value like concerts patreon vinyl versions merchandise etc.

Don't believe the capitalist dinosaurs trashing The Trove. All books are free is a completely viable reality that supports both creators and also people who can't afford premium print etc. Be proud of The Trove and look forward to it coming back. And also if you have some favorite designers and creators look them up find their paypal and vimeo and send them some money directly. And be glad your beloved game system can be played by anyone not just rich kids.

Right because the music industry hasn't been in upheaval for nearly 30 years now. How do bands make their money now? Touring. What's the RPG writer equivalent of touring? An obscure band can make a decent living by selling premium physical products and touring small venues. What about a writer? How many kickstarters have there been where you can get a Goodman Games quality leatherbound book?

Apologies if this thread needs to be deleted.


Yes, the parasitic middlemen: the printers, the truckers, the paper mills, the people who manufacture the equipment needed, the...don't you all just love the compassion and consideration these people have for other people?

Maybe I'm getting too old, but is this for real? Are these people really like that?
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

Pat

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2021, 04:55:53 PM »
Quote
Quote
Pretty much. If you don't defend IPs ferociously, they slide right into the public domain. The ridiculous extensions Disney has gotten on their properties (via bribing congresscritters) just make it worse.
Not true, you don't have to defend copyright. Since 1989, you don't even have to claim it; it's automatic.

Disney is evil, tho.
Yes and no. https://www.rothmanlawyer.com/defending-a-copyright-infringement-case/ (look, actual lawyers!)

A copyright must be registered before you file any claims or legal action against someone infringing. Think of it as staking and registering a land claim (actually, that comparison seems pretty apt).
So? You claimed it would fall into the public domain, which doesn't happen. The registration of a copyright is purely a legal formality needed to file suit, because it doesn't matter if the violations happened before or the copyright was registered.
Except that, yes, it can happen. Usually it's the result of generic use of a trademark ('Xerox' for example). But there are other instances, some as simple as forgetting to add the circle-c.

(Reference: https://www.knowmad.law/single-post/publicdomain )
You made a general statement that IPs need to be defended, or they fall into the public domain. That's false, because copyright doesn't work that way. Trademarks do have to be defended, but that's irrelevant, because when you make a general statement about a group of different things (all fruit is red!) and it's only true for a subset of those things, you're still wrong.

I also mentioned 1989 for a reason, because that's when the law was changed so you no longer need to formally claim copyright by appending a notice to your work.

You made the same mistake a lot of people do, on the internet. You referred to IP law as if it were this monolithic thing, and that's simply not the case. The rules for copyright, patents, and trademarks are all very different, and it's almost impossible to make a general statement that applies to them all. What's true for trademarks is not true for copyrights, and patents are another beast entirely. And that's ignoring all the fringes, like trade dress or iconic architecture. That's why it's usually a good idea to refer to the specific branch of IP law, rather than talk about it in general.

Oddend

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2021, 05:12:02 PM »
That's why it's usually a good idea to refer to the specific branch of IP law, rather than talk about it in general.

This is correct, though one good general statement that can be made about "Intellectual Property" is that it's all made-up Clown World nonsense (unlike property).

GeekyBugle

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Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2021, 05:20:33 PM »
That's why it's usually a good idea to refer to the specific branch of IP law, rather than talk about it in general.

This is correct, though one good general statement that can be made about "Intellectual Property" is that it's all made-up Clown World nonsense (unlike property).

Not so IMHO, the author should have the right to profit from his work and not be at the whim of any big corporation/rich fuck that decides to profit from it and runs him from the market.

The problem is with the period granted thanks to the Rat. Because they didn't want the mouse and other IP's to fall into public domain.

And we might even discuss trademark law regarding intellectual works (movies, novels, comics, RPGs). Maybe it should also be restricted to the life of the Author?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell