Quote from: Slambo on October 07, 2021, 03:30:25 AM

Quote from: Oddend on October 06, 2021, 08:42:34 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 06, 2021, 08:33:00 PM

Quote from: Oddend on October 06, 2021, 04:11:52 PM
Copying is not stealing. It's obvious, irrefutable, and is just something we have to get over and live with.

Except that many folks disagree with it, so it isn't obvious, it has been refuted many, many times, and it does not appear to be going away anytime soon.  Except for those points, you're 100% right.

Not a single one of you has presented a counter-argument (hint: "How would I get rich?" isn't an argument), but go ahead and congratulate yourselves.

I dont think "they can live on charity and good will" is a very compelling argument either. I do thank you for answering my question earlier, and it gave me a lot to think about, but i dont see the benefit in getting rid of IP laws. A lot of it relys on things like reputation, but that didnt help Charles Dickens when people were selling copies of A Christmas Carol without him.

They don't have to live on charity and good will, though it's certainly an option for some people (many already do). The only thing they have to do is play by the same rules as everyone else (i.e. they can't force people to give them money or behave a certain way).

Quote from: Slambo on October 07, 2021, 03:30:25 AM
EDIT: i actually just saw your edit to your original reply to me and its given me more to think over on the matter, im not really sold, partially because whats the basis of monetizing a livestream chat or writing advice as neither things are physical property?

The livestream chat or professional consultation would be services, just like performing live music or mowing somebody's lawn. If you mow somebody's lawn, they can't copy and share the results with others. While somebody can record live music or a livestream (and it's pretty common to upload recordings anyway), nobody can copy and share the experience of being one of the active members of the video chat, or being one of the audience members in a music hall. So even when recordings are shared, there's still an incentive to pay for future instances of the same service (and the recordings can even help drive ticket sales).

Live services are just one example, of course, but the point is that it's much more advisable to make your money through things that can't be copied infinitely with zero loss. Unlike recordings of a live event, my copy of a PDF is 100% just as good as the original that was paid for. So if I already have a copy, then my only incentive to buy is "charity and good will". And while I do buy things on that basis, and have made some of my own money on that basis (free pay-what-you-want game assets), it's not a great model for generating consistent income.

Who needs cash when you can live on thoughts and prayers alone.

Who needs to make something people are willing to pay for when you can force them to pay you against their will.

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 07, 2021, 04:41:01 AM
Of course, this is fine until "digital books" are great at the table. Some may argue their Kindle or iPad is already better for actual gaming than a deadtree version. So these people would represent a financial loss if PDFs were free.

One way to adapt is to produce RPG apps, or modules for apps, that are so good (and so conveniently priced) that it's more desirable to just buy the app/module than it would be to find and figure out how to run a pirated version of the app with pirated copies of modules. This is how Steam makes enormous amounts of money, despite selling stuff that technically can be copied and pasted about as easily as PDFs.

One strategy that's used in open-source software is to offer convenience downloads of the executable (and automatic updates) for money, while expecting freeloaders to compile their own executable from the source code (and do it again whenever they want the latest version).

This doesn't stop anyone from creating and sharing their own convenience downloads, but there's little incentive to do so, since it's ongoing work, and nobody would be paying for theirs.

This isn't as easy to replicate with PDFs, which aren't expected to be updated so often, but the point is that even for products that can be copy/pasted, one way to make money is just to out-convenience the "pirates".

Quote from: Oddend on October 07, 2021, 09:01:50 AM
make money is just to out-convenience the "pirates".

Yep, that could work with an app alright... Although not for me personally, as I think all those RPG apps are shite and just slow down the game.

Never going to work for pdfs. RPG creators are a lazy lot and updates are minor. So, once you've got the pdf no need to ever buy it.

That said, I like supporting Devs I likel so I'm happy to buy their stuff. Plus, it's the best way to get more material made, a financial incentive.

Quote from: Oddend on October 07, 2021, 08:41:58 AM

Quote from: Slambo on October 07, 2021, 03:30:25 AM

Quote from: Oddend on October 06, 2021, 08:42:34 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 06, 2021, 08:33:00 PM

Quote from: Oddend on October 06, 2021, 04:11:52 PM
Copying is not stealing. It's obvious, irrefutable, and is just something we have to get over and live with.

Except that many folks disagree with it, so it isn't obvious, it has been refuted many, many times, and it does not appear to be going away anytime soon.  Except for those points, you're 100% right.

Not a single one of you has presented a counter-argument (hint: "How would I get rich?" isn't an argument), but go ahead and congratulate yourselves.

I dont think "they can live on charity and good will" is a very compelling argument either. I do thank you for answering my question earlier, and it gave me a lot to think about, but i dont see the benefit in getting rid of IP laws. A lot of it relys on things like reputation, but that didnt help Charles Dickens when people were selling copies of A Christmas Carol without him.

They don't have to live on charity and good will, though it's certainly an option for some people (many already do). The only thing they have to do is play by the same rules as everyone else (i.e. they can't force people to give them money or behave a certain way).

Quote from: Slambo on October 07, 2021, 03:30:25 AM
EDIT: i actually just saw your edit to your original reply to me and its given me more to think over on the matter, im not really sold, partially because whats the basis of monetizing a livestream chat or writing advice as neither things are physical property?

The livestream chat or professional consultation would be services, just like performing live music or mowing somebody's lawn. If you mow somebody's lawn, they can't copy and share the results with others. While somebody can record live music or a livestream (and it's pretty common to upload recordings anyway), nobody can copy and share the experience of being one of the active members of the video chat, or being one of the audience members in a music hall. So even when recordings are shared, there's still an incentive to pay for future instances of the same service (and the recordings can even help drive ticket sales).

Live services are just one example, of course, but the point is that it's much more advisable to make your money through things that can't be copied infinitely with zero loss. Unlike recordings of a live event, my copy of a PDF is 100% just as good as the original that was paid for. So if I already have a copy, then my only incentive to buy is "charity and good will". And while I do buy things on that basis, and have made some of my own money on that basis (free pay-what-you-want game assets), it's not a great model for generating consistent income.

Im consistiently impressed with your insight into the matter. So i guess my next question is how is  it really better not to have copyright law for someone who doesnt want to create derivative works.

Quote from: horsesoldier on October 05, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTrove/comments/o7dpt9/what_happened_to_the_trove/

There's some real whoppers there. Now, they hate Daniel D. Fox, which is good, but for different reasons. The amount of entitled whining in there is something else. Apparently only rich kids could afford RPG's--who knew?

Here's one particular mouth breather justifying bad behavior:

QuoteI have a tremendous respect for the gaming community tolerating The Trove. The business model of book publishing is completely outdated in the digital era and needs complete overhaul. The gaming community should be inclusive to all regardless of economic means and globally regardless of country poverty.

The Trove has just forced game publishers authors etc to flex to a model of the future where you expect your work to be freely available and you make your money from people who want to pay you directly, people who can afford it, and people who want the premium printed versions and physical versions.

That does mean eliminsting tthe bloated middleman system of pre-digital publishing with all the parasites feeding off the actual creators.

The same dynamic is happening in music production. The music industry is in upheaval but smart musicians are setting up ways to adapt to a totally new model where their work gets widely available for free - and what artist or musician doesnt want their work to get heard seen or read - and they get paid more directly for premium value like concerts patreon vinyl versions merchandise etc.

Don't believe the capitalist dinosaurs trashing The Trove. All books are free is a completely viable reality that supports both creators and also people who can't afford premium print etc. Be proud of The Trove and look forward to it coming back. And also if you have some favorite designers and creators look them up find their paypal and vimeo and send them some money directly. And be glad your beloved game system can be played by anyone not just rich kids.

Right because the music industry hasn't been in upheaval for nearly 30 years now. How do bands make their money now? Touring. What's the RPG writer equivalent of touring? An obscure band can make a decent living by selling premium physical products and touring small venues. What about a writer? How many kickstarters have there been where you can get a Goodman Games quality leatherbound book?

Apologies if this thread needs to be deleted.

I, for one, look forward to a time when Venger Satanis can go out on tour and... run games for folks sitting at a table at the center of sold-out concert arenas.  At the conclusion of such events, I will fling my dice into the crowd as dozens of women throw their soiled panties back at me. 

Ok, just woke up from a dream I had... what are we talking about?

VS

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 07, 2021, 02:52:35 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on October 05, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTrove/comments/o7dpt9/what_happened_to_the_trove/

There's some real whoppers there. Now, they hate Daniel D. Fox, which is good, but for different reasons. The amount of entitled whining in there is something else. Apparently only rich kids could afford RPG's--who knew?

Here's one particular mouth breather justifying bad behavior:

QuoteI have a tremendous respect for the gaming community tolerating The Trove. The business model of book publishing is completely outdated in the digital era and needs complete overhaul. The gaming community should be inclusive to all regardless of economic means and globally regardless of country poverty.

The Trove has just forced game publishers authors etc to flex to a model of the future where you expect your work to be freely available and you make your money from people who want to pay you directly, people who can afford it, and people who want the premium printed versions and physical versions.

That does mean eliminsting tthe bloated middleman system of pre-digital publishing with all the parasites feeding off the actual creators.

The same dynamic is happening in music production. The music industry is in upheaval but smart musicians are setting up ways to adapt to a totally new model where their work gets widely available for free - and what artist or musician doesnt want their work to get heard seen or read - and they get paid more directly for premium value like concerts patreon vinyl versions merchandise etc.

Don't believe the capitalist dinosaurs trashing The Trove. All books are free is a completely viable reality that supports both creators and also people who can't afford premium print etc. Be proud of The Trove and look forward to it coming back. And also if you have some favorite designers and creators look them up find their paypal and vimeo and send them some money directly. And be glad your beloved game system can be played by anyone not just rich kids.

Right because the music industry hasn't been in upheaval for nearly 30 years now. How do bands make their money now? Touring. What's the RPG writer equivalent of touring? An obscure band can make a decent living by selling premium physical products and touring small venues. What about a writer? How many kickstarters have there been where you can get a Goodman Games quality leatherbound book?

Apologies if this thread needs to be deleted.

I, for one, look forward to a time when Venger Satanis can go out on tour and... run games for folks sitting at a table at the center of sold-out concert arenas.  At the conclusion of such events, I will fling my dice into the crowd as dozens of women throw their soiled panties back at me. 

Ok, just woke up from a dream I had... what are we talking about?

VS

We were talking about your crippling addiction to sniffing faerie wings.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:07:05 AM
Yeah, this was annoying as I was using it to avoid giving money to people who say they hate me. Also to look up and research older, out of print games like Boot Hill, or Recon.

The irony of it getting KO'd by Daniel 'Ripped off Warhammer Fantasy' Fox, though, is enough to make me chuckle.

EDIT: I want to add something here, horse. Bands have ALWAYS made their best money touring. There's a reason why the RIAA's enforcements against music piracy didn't exactly stir people, and that's because their contracts were fucking highway robbery. It's also why they desperately fought against digital distribution, because it completely undercut the contract dynamic they'd use to fuck bands over. As it got easier to produce CDs (and later it wasn't even necessary), the distribution model became more and more outdated.

I don't know what the fix is for RPG writers. I've made it clear that I promote pirating material when people straight up state, 'I hate you and don't want your money'. Who am I to argue with them? But I won't pirate Pundit's stuff, or Venger's, or Zak's, or anyone else on the green list (or hell, yellow). Because I want to reward them for not being dickheads (and turning out quality material) with, y'know, cash.

I appreciate that, hoss!  Hey, if anyone wants to get my stuff but is just temporarily stuck for cash, I usually exchange PDFs for honest reviews.  All you have to do is contact me: Venger.Satanis@yahoo.com

I am not sad to see the demise of the Trove. I've been out of the industry for years, and when I was in the industry, it was before the Trove was a thing... but torrent certainly was. I could watch the month to month sales of our evergreen products drop in the month that a PDF of that product hit the torrent sites. It was uncanny - a book that would sell around 100 units a month, month after month, years after its initial publication would drop to about 20 units a month in sales when its torrent went wide.

No amount of people saying that "oh, really, they're just checking it out before they buy" will convince me that piracy doesn't negatively impact sales when I have the data from not just one book, but book after book in a line where I could see that the only thing that changed was how easy it was to pirate a book.

I think that there is probably a place for products that are long out of print to be made available. Heck, Talislanta has a model that we old publishers should aspire to (by the way, do you not own Talislanta? Head to www.talistlanta.com to pick up any of the out of print back catalog for free). But writing in the RPG industry is a way to make literally dozens of dollars, and if somebody does have an evergreen product that they want to keep selling, the fruits of their labor shouldn't be undercut by a place like the Trove.

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha on October 07, 2021, 03:51:18 PM
I am not sad to see the demise of the Trove. I've been out of the industry for years, and when I was in the industry, it was before the Trove was a thing... but torrent certainly was. I could watch the month to month sales of our evergreen products drop in the month that a PDF of that product hit the torrent sites. It was uncanny - a book that would sell around 100 units a month, month after month, years after its initial publication would drop to about 20 units a month in sales when its torrent went wide.

No amount of people saying that "oh, really, they're just checking it out before they buy" will convince me that piracy doesn't negatively impact sales when I have the data from not just one book, but book after book in a line where I could see that the only thing that changed was how easy it was to pirate a book.

I think that there is probably a place for products that are long out of print to be made available. Heck, Talislanta has a model that we old publishers should aspire to (by the way, do you not own Talislanta? Head to www.talistlanta.com to pick up any of the out of print back catalog for free). But writing in the RPG industry is a way to make literally dozens of dollars, and if somebody does have an evergreen product that they want to keep selling, the fruits of their labor shouldn't be undercut by a place like the Trove.

Some might pirate then buy, but the true pirate will either pirate it or go without, it's a thing of "principle" to those that think you shouldn't be able to monetize your work or that should resort to begging.

I agree that a place for the long out of print stuff is needed.

I was working on a Warhammer fantasy fan mod for Mount & Blade and the Trove was invaluable for my lore research. As in the vast majority of info I needed was in out of print books. I'm glad I was able to use the Trove when it was around.

Piracy is a service issue. There are always going to be people who want something for free. And those who are willing to pay. I'm willing to pay up to £10 for a PDF, and £20 for a physical book. I see a lot of OSR games that look good but I wouldn't pay the amount they are asking for.  You are never going to convince someone to buy your shitty OSR Retro clone when can just get it for free. And if they can't get it for free they just won't buy it. Focus on providing a good customer service experience and building loyalty amongst your consumers and people will buy your book.

Quote from: King Tyranno on October 07, 2021, 06:21:22 PM
Piracy is a service issue. There are always going to be people who want something for free. And those who are willing to pay. I'm willing to pay up to £10 for a PDF, and £20 for a physical book. I see a lot of OSR games that look good but I wouldn't pay the amount they are asking for.  You are never going to convince someone to buy your shitty OSR Retro clone when can just get it for free. And if they can't get it for free they just won't buy it. Focus on providing a good customer service experience and building loyalty amongst your consumers and people will buy your book.

There's a reason why a lot of people charge a nominal amount (whatever that means in their context) for things they'd be happy to give away for free:  Many people will value things based on what they paid, not how useful it is to them.  I've seen some examples--no idea how accurate--where the "give away" price was as much as $10, because below that most people wouldn't take the thing.  One or two dollars for a small PDF probably fits in the same window.

However, the whole conversation leaves me bemused, because most free things aren't worth to me what I paid for them, and for many of the PDFs that have a cost, I wouldn't waste space on my hard drive for if someone gave it to me, let alone pay to print it out.  Never mind the items that I wouldn't read the whole thing if you paid me to own it.  Time and space are valuable too, and a PDF that makes you dumber just reading it has a negative value.  If I were a shoplifter, I'd sneak back into the virtual store and put it back after buying it--and come out richer in the end.

Whereas, apparently some pirates will steal even free or almost free things, hoard them, and ... never read them.  Like birds putting bits of string in their nests.  Which leads me to believe it isn't about economics at all.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 07, 2021, 02:52:35 PMAt the conclusion of such events, I will fling my dice into the crowd as dozens of women throw their soiled panties back at me. 

THIS must happen at every VengerCon!

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 07, 2021, 07:59:24 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 07, 2021, 02:52:35 PMAt the conclusion of such events, I will fling my dice into the crowd as dozens of women throw their soiled panties back at me. 

THIS must happen at every VengerCon!

Note to self: Bring spare pair of soiled gamer boxers to VengerCon.