This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.

Author Topic: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs  (Read 13433 times)

Abraxus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2183
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2021, 12:42:56 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Ocule

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2021, 12:53:19 PM »
I've used the trove before to look at books before buying. There is plenty of booty in the sea to speak, and i'll continue to sail until the end of time. That said, sites like the trove for me served two purposes. The first is allowing me to actually view the content in it's full glory to help me decide whether I want it or not. There are alot of creators who can thank that website for me actually buying their books in hard copy because of that. The second is it has helped me get books that are out of print and don't have a legitimate pdf scan or copy. Books are expensive and fuck me if i spend money on something i cant even see what i'm getting.

And more minorly it has helped with keeping pdf backups...if I already bought your shit im not buying it twice. Saves me the trouble of doing physical scans.

Anyway i'm sad to see it go down but these networks are great at keeping out of print pdfs circulating.
Read my Consumer's Guide to TTRPGs
here. This is a living document.

Forever GM

Now Running: Deadlands (SWADE)

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2021, 01:02:01 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Ocule

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2021, 01:21:57 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?

I think it would definitely help. Most pdfs aren’t worth more than 5 to 10 bucks imo.
Read my Consumer's Guide to TTRPGs
here. This is a living document.

Forever GM

Now Running: Deadlands (SWADE)

Banjo Destructo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • B
  • Posts: 51
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2021, 01:23:53 PM »
I wonder how much of the cost of books is because of physical production, and how much is because of the work put into making the content, as well as branding/IP  "premiums".   You could argue that with cheap printing done in China, that it only costs.. say..  well heck I dunno,  $4 to print a book the size of the 5E PHB? Maybe less?  I'm not entirely sure.    You could argue that books that print as many copies as the 5E PHB have printed, the "real" cost of even the printed book could be 1/3 as much and still be "profitable" based solely on the printing cost.

Of course I also wonder how many books are set at certain prices because that is what the "expected normal" price of the book is for that industry/genre/tier,  and how many books are actually priced based on the cost going into them for production as well as the printing costs, and then some margin of profit factored in.   I don't know.  It's something to think about.

I know a pdf version of a hardcover/softcover book still has all the writing/editing work going into it, the same IP costs or whatnot, and the only difference then being the printing cost.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2021, 01:37:02 PM »
I wonder how much of the cost of books is because of physical production, and how much is because of the work put into making the content, as well as branding/IP  "premiums".   You could argue that with cheap printing done in China, that it only costs.. say..  well heck I dunno,  $4 to print a book the size of the 5E PHB? Maybe less?  I'm not entirely sure.    You could argue that books that print as many copies as the 5E PHB have printed, the "real" cost of even the printed book could be 1/3 as much and still be "profitable" based solely on the printing cost.

Of course I also wonder how many books are set at certain prices because that is what the "expected normal" price of the book is for that industry/genre/tier,  and how many books are actually priced based on the cost going into them for production as well as the printing costs, and then some margin of profit factored in.   I don't know.  It's something to think about.

I know a pdf version of a hardcover/softcover book still has all the writing/editing work going into it, the same IP costs or whatnot, and the only difference then being the printing cost.

Well yes, those costs are the developing of the game, but then again, you're selling your printed copies at $60 US, how many copies of the PHB 5e have been sold? I'd argue that their cost has been more than covered and then some. Especially because we know how much they pay their wage slaves.

And those games that were funded by crowdfunding? The cost was already covered by the campaign, leaving only printing+shipping costs to be covered, you still can't sell the printed copy at less than the buy in into the crowdfunding, but the PDF?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2021, 01:39:16 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?

I think it would definitely help. Most pdfs aren’t worth more than 5 to 10 bucks imo.

Agreed. Most PDFs aren't worth even 5 bucks imho. The good stuff it's worth between 5-10 bucks tops, and that's with art & a high page count that's not mostly fluff.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Banjo Destructo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • B
  • Posts: 51
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2021, 01:43:00 PM »
I wonder how much of the cost of books is because of physical production, and how much is because of the work put into making the content, as well as branding/IP  "premiums".   You could argue that with cheap printing done in China, that it only costs.. say..  well heck I dunno,  $4 to print a book the size of the 5E PHB? Maybe less?  I'm not entirely sure.    You could argue that books that print as many copies as the 5E PHB have printed, the "real" cost of even the printed book could be 1/3 as much and still be "profitable" based solely on the printing cost.

Of course I also wonder how many books are set at certain prices because that is what the "expected normal" price of the book is for that industry/genre/tier,  and how many books are actually priced based on the cost going into them for production as well as the printing costs, and then some margin of profit factored in.   I don't know.  It's something to think about.

I know a pdf version of a hardcover/softcover book still has all the writing/editing work going into it, the same IP costs or whatnot, and the only difference then being the printing cost.

Well yes, those costs are the developing of the game, but then again, you're selling your printed copies at $60 US, how many copies of the PHB 5e have been sold? I'd argue that their cost has been more than covered and then some. Especially because we know how much they pay their wage slaves.

And those games that were funded by crowdfunding? The cost was already covered by the campaign, leaving only printing+shipping costs to be covered, you still can't sell the printed copy at less than the buy in into the crowdfunding, but the PDF?


I just wonder, maybe the $60 for the printed book is way over-priced and we should, as a group, be more upset about that price rather than the pdf price?  Like maybe there should only be a.. $6 difference in price between the pdf and the book?  Or whatever the print cost difference is, and both versions of the book should be less expensive over all?

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2021, 01:54:40 PM »
I wonder how much of the cost of books is because of physical production, and how much is because of the work put into making the content, as well as branding/IP  "premiums".   You could argue that with cheap printing done in China, that it only costs.. say..  well heck I dunno,  $4 to print a book the size of the 5E PHB? Maybe less?  I'm not entirely sure.    You could argue that books that print as many copies as the 5E PHB have printed, the "real" cost of even the printed book could be 1/3 as much and still be "profitable" based solely on the printing cost.

Of course I also wonder how many books are set at certain prices because that is what the "expected normal" price of the book is for that industry/genre/tier,  and how many books are actually priced based on the cost going into them for production as well as the printing costs, and then some margin of profit factored in.   I don't know.  It's something to think about.

I know a pdf version of a hardcover/softcover book still has all the writing/editing work going into it, the same IP costs or whatnot, and the only difference then being the printing cost.

Well yes, those costs are the developing of the game, but then again, you're selling your printed copies at $60 US, how many copies of the PHB 5e have been sold? I'd argue that their cost has been more than covered and then some. Especially because we know how much they pay their wage slaves.

And those games that were funded by crowdfunding? The cost was already covered by the campaign, leaving only printing+shipping costs to be covered, you still can't sell the printed copy at less than the buy in into the crowdfunding, but the PDF?


I just wonder, maybe the $60 for the printed book is way over-priced and we should, as a group, be more upset about that price rather than the pdf price?  Like maybe there should only be a.. $6 difference in price between the pdf and the book?  Or whatever the print cost difference is, and both versions of the book should be less expensive over all?

What you're proposing means that for just $6 more I get the printed version... I'm sure this would only lead to the PDfs price increase until such a difference is achieved.

Thruth is the price is decided by the market, things will cost as much as the market segment is willing to pay.

So if the printed game costs $60 it's because collectors and players/GMs are willing to pay up that much in enough numbers as to pay the initial costs + printing and shipping with enough margin as to make it worth it for the publisher.

But once again, a digital product has ZERO costs after the initial costs of developing, if you're selling both then your costs have more sales to be diluted into.

Triple that for crowdfunded games whose initial costs have already been covered by the campaign.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 2082
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2021, 02:07:36 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?
As someone who's looked at publishing costs recently, the physical printing costs are, at most 25% of the final product. All the rest of the price tag is the fixed costs that are indifferent to whether the copy is physical or digital (writing, art, editing, layouts, website hosting costs that need to be covered whether a single copy sells or not and which need to be factored into the final price per unit based on expected sales) and non-physical variable costs (ex. distribution... DrivethruRPG doesn't do it's thing for free... they take a significant percentage).

Honestly, a $15 pdf for a $20 physical book sounds about right for a product where the team behind it is hoping to break even (i.e. they make no money). Maybe if people didn't pirate so many pdfs there would be more copies we could expect to spread those fixed costs across... instead we get to spread $0 of fixed costs to those and need to charge more for the pdfs and physical books just to break even.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 02:11:38 PM by Chris24601 »

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2021, 02:12:46 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?
As someone who's looked at publishing costs recently, the physical printing costs are, at most 25% of the final product. All the rest of the price tag is the fixed costs that are indifferent to whether the copy is physical or digital (writing, art, editing, layouts, website hosting costs that need to be covered whether a single copy sells or not and which need to be factored into the final price per unit based on expected sales) and non-physical variable costs (ex. distribution... DrivethruRPG doesn't do it's thing for free... they take a significant percentage).

Honestly, a $15 pdf for a $20 physical book sounds about right for a product where the team behind it is hoping to break even (i.e. they make more money). Maybe if people didn't pirate so many pdfs there would be more copies we could expect to spread those fixed costs across... instead we get to spread $0 of fixed costs to those and need to charge more for the pdfs and physical books just to break even.

Or maybe if the PDF price was lower less ppl would pirate?

The fixed costs get paid at some point in your run, so after that those aren't an issue anymore. And yet the PDFs price remains the same.

Because it's the maximum price the market will support.

Your argument would make sense if your game as a living document and you would send me for free (or nearly) any and all future additions/modifications. As far as I know nobody does this.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

S'mon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11968
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2021, 02:13:06 PM »
I think it would definitely help. Most pdfs aren’t worth more than 5 to 10 bucks imo.

I know when I wanted a pdf of an old 3e Necromancer Games adventure, I was very happy to pay £3 to get it direct from Frog God. At that price it's not even worth searching for pdfs. Whereas when I own a £40 hardback and I want to share a handout with my players, no way am I spending another £30 on the pdf. Decent publishers include a pdf with the hardback; smart ones give a free link to somewhere like drivethru where I can easily get a replacement when I lose the original pdf...

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 2082
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2021, 02:20:59 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?
As someone who's looked at publishing costs recently, the physical printing costs are, at most 25% of the final product. All the rest of the price tag is the fixed costs that are indifferent to whether the copy is physical or digital (writing, art, editing, layouts, website hosting costs that need to be covered whether a single copy sells or not and which need to be factored into the final price per unit based on expected sales) and non-physical variable costs (ex. distribution... DrivethruRPG doesn't do it's thing for free... they take a significant percentage).

Honestly, a $15 pdf for a $20 physical book sounds about right for a product where the team behind it is hoping to break even (i.e. they make more money). Maybe if people didn't pirate so many pdfs there would be more copies we could expect to spread those fixed costs across... instead we get to spread $0 of fixed costs to those and need to charge more for the pdfs and physical books just to break even.

Or maybe if the PDF price was lower less ppl would pirate?

The fixed costs get paid at some point in your run, so after that those aren't an issue anymore. And yet the PDFs price remains the same.

Because it's the maximum price the market will support.

Your argument would make sense if your game as a living document and you would send me for free (or nearly) any and all future additions/modifications. As far as I know nobody does this.
At some point you make enough money at your job in a week to cover your expenses... and yet the amount you demand to be paid for your work remains the same.

How about as soon as soon as you make enough money in a week you tell your boss the rest of your work for the week is being done at no charge?

You sound exactly like every fucking self-entitled socialist on the planet... "You don't deserve to make money because I want something you've produced but don't want to actually have to pay for it."

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3616
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2021, 02:26:04 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?
As someone who's looked at publishing costs recently, the physical printing costs are, at most 25% of the final product. All the rest of the price tag is the fixed costs that are indifferent to whether the copy is physical or digital (writing, art, editing, layouts, website hosting costs that need to be covered whether a single copy sells or not and which need to be factored into the final price per unit based on expected sales) and non-physical variable costs (ex. distribution... DrivethruRPG doesn't do it's thing for free... they take a significant percentage).

Honestly, a $15 pdf for a $20 physical book sounds about right for a product where the team behind it is hoping to break even (i.e. they make more money). Maybe if people didn't pirate so many pdfs there would be more copies we could expect to spread those fixed costs across... instead we get to spread $0 of fixed costs to those and need to charge more for the pdfs and physical books just to break even.

Or maybe if the PDF price was lower less ppl would pirate?

The fixed costs get paid at some point in your run, so after that those aren't an issue anymore. And yet the PDFs price remains the same.

Because it's the maximum price the market will support.

Your argument would make sense if your game as a living document and you would send me for free (or nearly) any and all future additions/modifications. As far as I know nobody does this.
At some point you make enough money at your job in a week to cover your expenses... and yet the amount you demand to be paid for your work remains the same.

How about as soon as soon as you make enough money in a week you tell your boss the rest of your work for the week is being done at no charge?

You sound exactly like every fucking self-entitled socialist on the planet... "You don't deserve to make money because I want something you've produced but don't want to actually have to pay for it."

Except it's not the same thing is it?

Once I've finished developing the game I'm not working on it anymore.

First time someone calls me a socialist... Grim would beg to disagree.

Edited to add:


Or maybe if the PDF price was lower less ppl would pirate?

The fixed costs get paid at some point in your run, so after that those aren't an issue anymore. And yet the PDFs price remains the same.

Because it's the maximum price the market will support.

Your argument would make sense if your game as a living document and you would send me for free (or nearly) any and all future additions/modifications. As far as I know nobody does this.

Yeah that's exactly what a socialist would say.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 02:41:05 PM by GeekyBugle »
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 2082
Re: Reddit gamers were mad they lost an easy means of pirating TTRPGs
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2021, 02:45:10 PM »
Talk about a bunch of entitled group of people.

No sympathy for the Trove as GB said they would pirate from everyone and anyone even the little guy in terms of RPGs. Still sad seeing grown adults crying that they can’t illegally pirate RPGs anymore is a sad statement for society. One of the reasons I went to PDF format beyond space restrictions is the cost in that format is usually cheaper. They can’t get free stuff anymore my heart truly bleeds for them.

Something else to keep in mind:

Is piracy wholly or partly to blame for the ridiculous PDF prices? Or is it the other way around? Or is it a vicious circle?

I mean softcover $20 US and PDF $14 US? I've seen this stuff more than once, come on, once you made the PDF your cost for copy is zero.

If the PDF prices went down to I don't know 1/5 of the softcover? Maybe even less, would that make some stop pirating?

I know for a fact that many pirate not for lack of money but out of "principle" so not all would stop, but maybe it would help some?
As someone who's looked at publishing costs recently, the physical printing costs are, at most 25% of the final product. All the rest of the price tag is the fixed costs that are indifferent to whether the copy is physical or digital (writing, art, editing, layouts, website hosting costs that need to be covered whether a single copy sells or not and which need to be factored into the final price per unit based on expected sales) and non-physical variable costs (ex. distribution... DrivethruRPG doesn't do it's thing for free... they take a significant percentage).

Honestly, a $15 pdf for a $20 physical book sounds about right for a product where the team behind it is hoping to break even (i.e. they make more money). Maybe if people didn't pirate so many pdfs there would be more copies we could expect to spread those fixed costs across... instead we get to spread $0 of fixed costs to those and need to charge more for the pdfs and physical books just to break even.

Or maybe if the PDF price was lower less ppl would pirate?

The fixed costs get paid at some point in your run, so after that those aren't an issue anymore. And yet the PDFs price remains the same.

Because it's the maximum price the market will support.

Your argument would make sense if your game as a living document and you would send me for free (or nearly) any and all future additions/modifications. As far as I know nobody does this.
At some point you make enough money at your job in a week to cover your expenses... and yet the amount you demand to be paid for your work remains the same.

How about as soon as soon as you make enough money in a week you tell your boss the rest of your work for the week is being done at no charge?

You sound exactly like every fucking self-entitled socialist on the planet... "You don't deserve to make money because I want something you've produced but don't want to actually have to pay for it."

Except it's not the same thing is it?

Once I've finished developing the game I'm not working on it anymore.

First time someone calls me a socialist... Grim would beg to disagree.
It is EXACTLY the same thing. You have declared that at a certain point I've made enough money on my product and you deserve to have it for free.

That is textbook socialism; which is another word for theft. You just don't like to think of yourself as a thief when you're taking someone's work without paying them for it.

The fixed costs get paid at some point in your run, so after that those aren't an issue anymore. And yet the PDFs price remains the same.

Because it's the maximum price the market will support.

Your argument would make sense if your game as a living document and you would send me for free (or nearly) any and all future additions/modifications. As far as I know nobody does this.

Yeah that's exactly what a socialist would say.
When you're saying it is WRONG for a publisher to charge what the market will bear... YES that is EXACTLY what a socialist would say. You my friend; are a socialist in denial.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 02:48:08 PM by Chris24601 »