Quote from: Erik BoielleBut dude!

Berk:- Noun. An idiot, objectionable person. Derived from the rhyming slang Berkshire Hunt or Berkeley Hunt, meaning 'cunt'.

All I know is that common usage relegated it to a term fit for beloved cockernee sitcom Only Fools and Horses.

Interesting etymological digging there, though.

Quote from: DrewInteresting etymological digging there, though.

Great innit. Makes reading planescape stuff VASTLY more entertaining, especially knowing merkins aversion to the c-word.

Listen up, Cunts!

:-)

Oh - and I loved planescape. I love that kind of imagination. Its a stain on the species that it wasn't more popular.

Quote from: Erik BoielleGreat innit. Makes reading planescape stuff VASTLY more entertaining, especially knowing merkins aversion to the c-word.

Skarka likes that word. Lots.

Jus sayin'.

I think Planescape works best if you take the approach they took with Planescape: Torment - keep the action rooted firmly in Sigil, and only go to the other planes for brief jaunts (if that). That's the only way to keep the other planes mysterious and interesting and mythic, to my mind.

In fact, the idea of Sigil as being this ivory-tower bubble of philosophers-with-knives who are very slightly out of touch with the mythic realities and epic consequences of the wider Planes is kind of fun, especially if you keep the idea that the philosophies prevailing in Sigil can affect the entire multiverse. The idea of these violent, muddle-headed jerks fighting their stupid fights in the streets of Sigil with only the vaguest idea of the awesome cosmic consequences of their ridiculous dances is kind of appealing.

Quote from: WarthurI think Planescape works best if you take the approach they took with Planescape: Torment - keep the action rooted firmly in Sigil, and only go to the other planes for brief jaunts (if that). That's the only way to keep the other planes mysterious and interesting and mythic, to my mind.

I don't. Sigil's a nice starting point, but my favorite adventures dip deeply into the planes, taking characters to interesting and usual places.

I find the whole idea that "there are these fantastic, cool places out there, but you can't GAME in them, just think about them" to be sort of at odds with my gaming philosophy. Bring on the cool! Take me the tower made of the spine of a god! Take me to a field populated by demons, where the wails of angels staked to trees fill the air with the sounds of eternal torment! Take me to the halls of thunder, where the judged become tormentors! Take me to the depths of acheron, where rust monsters mature into freaking rust dragons.

Just bring on the cool, damnit!

Yes, the cant is "based" on RL slang, in the same way that an american actor in an LA studio who's never been to england but is attempting to speak in a 19th century lower-class british accent, yet doesn't actually want to be bothered to study what that consisted of, so just decides to "wing it" instead sounds like. It sounds obviously contrived, in other words, and a poor approximation of a real slang without actually being one.

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Quote from: Erik BoielleOh - and I loved planescape. I love that kind of imagination. Its a stain on the species that it wasn't more popular.

That's just the point, planescape takes the vastness and limitlessness of the planes and LIMITS it. It demonstrates a GIGANTIC LACK of imagination, by having writers take the fucking realms of the gods and infinite celestial or infernal domains, asking "what would this look like?" and answering "It looks just like any other place does, only with more leather and bad cockney accents!".

It wasn't until 3e and the manual of the planes that we started to restore some sense of grandness to the planes.

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Quote from: RPGPundit3. It made the planes utterly post-modernist. Everyone is just misunderstood, everyone has a point of view that's valid. The Demons and Devils (sorry, Tanari and Whatevertehfucke) are not creatures of infinite evil, they're just the representatives of their particular alignment who act according to their alignment, the metaphysical equivalent of having "grown up in the bad part of town".
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Because as we all know there is only ever absolute good and absolute evil.  Any implication that there are ever shades of grey is clearly a Forge conspiracy to undermine the glorious revolution.:rolleyes:

Quote from: StumpydaveBecause as we all know there is only ever absolute good and absolute evil.  Any implication that there are ever shades of grey is clearly a Forge conspiracy to undermine the glorious revolution.:rolleyes:

No, not at all. You'll notice that in my own FtA! game "good" and "evil" don't even enter into the cut for alignments.

But my point is that the planes are an ARCHETYPAL place full of symbol.  Symbol and archetypes and the heroic journey does not mix well with "shades of grey".  There's certainly a place for "shades of grey", my campaigns tend to be pretty full of them; what there isn't a place for is dogmatic moral-relativism that seeks to deconstruct myth and turn it into the mundane.

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Okay, fair comment.  
(If I was a moustache twirling villain, I'd shake my fist at you.  You and your white hat)

Planescape was good as a stand-alone setting, i.e. pretended it wasn't part of any other D&D setting and was a separate entity. Once you started trying to mesh it with the other D&D settings or actually pretended it really was the Outer Planes of the other established worlds it got lame. I agree with most of the points you made though, but the DungeonPunk thing wasn't bad... again, if you separated it from any of the D&D worlds and pretended it was stand-alone.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, not at all. You'll notice that in my own FtA! game "good" and "evil" don't even enter into the cut for alignments.

But my point is that the planes are an ARCHETYPAL place full of symbol.  Symbol and archetypes and the heroic journey does not mix well with "shades of grey".  There's certainly a place for "shades of grey", my campaigns tend to be pretty full of them; what there isn't a place for is dogmatic moral-relativism that seeks to deconstruct myth and turn it into the mundane.

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I find this all very interesting.  My world (setting) is an elaboration on the Hero's Journey, and attempts to embody what I think you are alluding to as the principals of symbolic coherency.  

I'd be interested to hear how you would (or do) play the Planes so that they carry the weight you are suggesting.

Quote from: GrimJestaPlanescape was good as a stand-alone setting, i.e. pretended it wasn't part of any other D&D setting and was a separate entity. Once you started trying to mesh it with the other D&D settings or actually pretended it really was the Outer Planes of the other established worlds it got lame. I agree with most of the points you made though, but the DungeonPunk thing wasn't bad... again, if you separated it from any of the D&D worlds and pretended it was stand-alone.

-=Grim=-

Well, again, I think a lot of that was just them trying to "shoe-horn" in external elements into a setting that they fit poorly in that should have remained completely unique and separate.  To an extent, you saw a bit of that with Eberron, too, I thought (though nowhere near as bad).

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI find the whole idea that "there are these fantastic, cool places out there, but you can't GAME in them, just think about them" to be sort of at odds with my gaming philosophy. Bring on the cool! Take me the tower made of the spine of a god! Take me to a field populated by demons, where the wails of angels staked to trees fill the air with the sounds of eternal torment! Take me to the halls of thunder, where the judged become tormentors! Take me to the depths of acheron, where rust monsters mature into freaking rust dragons.

Just bring on the cool, damnit!

The problem with the cool is that, sooner or later, if you're overexposed to it you just get jaded. My attitude to Planescape is that there's two flavours of cool you can bring out: the "cool" in Sigil, the exciting politics and backstabbing and mad travellers from other parts of the character's main existences, and the "cool" in the outer planes, which should be kept in reserve and brought out when you want to really blow people's socks off. The latter is less effective if you thrust it at the players constantly: you need to give them time to put their socks back on before you blow them off again.

Quote from: VBWyrdeI'd be interested to hear how you would (or do) play the Planes so that they carry the weight you are suggesting.

Much like they were presented in the Manual of the Planes; large and archetypal, the kind of place you go to adventure in when you're too cool for anything on the material plane anymore (in other words, getting to the planes is something that should start happening once you've hit high level, and not usually before that); full of utterly hostile environments and overwhelming experiences.

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