Realistic Rules

Ras Algethi · February 28, 2017, 06:50:35 PM

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947941Inconsistency? Over-the-top?

It depends exactly what you're referring to by saying "realism".

Quote from: Omega;947947Unrealistic is the other end of the spectrum. Rules that do things that defy reality without any cause/effect, trigger, etc.

All guns are accurate and allways kill in one shot. That is unrealistic.
Being shot/stabbed/cleaved/clubbed in the head is allways fatal. Is unrealistic.
and so on. While equally simple rules that allow for the chance of survival are more realistic. Within limits of course.

Sometimes problems like this occur because some designer believes X is true even when it is demonstratably not.

Sometimes a simple rule gets misused due to some quirk. Falling damage in D&D is the poster child for that. That Mearls and co botched it so badly by blindly copying only part of the rule AND copying the TYPO on top of that tells you just how clueless they are sometimes.

Personally, I'd want to avoid a term that could be seen a pejorative which I could see unrealistic being. Also, all games are unrealistic to some degree. None are perfect simulations of life (who'd want that anyways!!).

Omega · February 28, 2017, 07:33:38 PM

Unrealistic isnt necessarily pejorative. But in general it does get used that way as more oft than not either something IS worthy of a little mocking. (4e D&D) or someones gotten it in their head that so-n-so means something totally different despite the damn book saying otherwise and thus it is unrealistic. Or somethings being chronically mis-used in a way that sure is unrealistic.

And sometimes the heckling is directed at the person making some blatantly moron statement. Rather than the system or element.

jhkim · February 28, 2017, 08:22:19 PM

Quote from: Ras Algethi;948146Personally, I'd want to avoid a term that could be seen a pejorative which I could see unrealistic being. Also, all games are unrealistic to some degree. None are perfect simulations of life (who'd want that anyways!!).

The term "unrealistic" is usually a pejorative, but plenty of games positively advertise themselves as "cinematic" or "superheroic" or similar terms - which is intended as a direct contrast to realistic.

No game is perfectly realistic - but then, not even real-world scientific simulations are perfectly realistic. It's pointless goalpost-shifting that there is only "realistic" vs "unrealistic" - and that everything is "unrealistic".

In practice, there is a huge difference between Toon and HarnMaster. And I think HarnMaster is enjoyable for its realism, for some players.

Ras Algethi · February 28, 2017, 10:10:53 PM

Quote from: Omega;948156Unrealistic isnt necessarily pejorative. But in general it does get used that way as more oft than not either something IS worthy of a little mocking. (4e D&D) or someones gotten it in their head that so-n-so means something totally different despite the damn book saying otherwise and thus it is unrealistic. Or somethings being chronically mis-used in a way that sure is unrealistic.

And sometimes the heckling is directed at the person making some blatantly moron statement. Rather than the system or element.

Quote from: jhkim;948163The term "unrealistic" is usually a pejorative, but plenty of games positively advertise themselves as "cinematic" or "superheroic" or similar terms - which is intended as a direct contrast to realistic.

No game is perfectly realistic - but then, not even real-world scientific simulations are perfectly realistic. It's pointless goalpost-shifting that there is only "realistic" vs "unrealistic" - and that everything is "unrealistic".

In practice, there is a huge difference between Toon and HarnMaster. And I think HarnMaster is enjoyable for its realism, for some players.

Totally agree that the term needed be a pejorative but, in my experience, has usually been which was why I'd avoided it. I'd start with the idea that no game is realistic but that there is a scale/slider on how more or less realistic a game might be compared to another.

Tristram Evans · February 28, 2017, 11:59:29 PM

Quote from: Maarzan;947989What abstraction does is leaving out details - and where there are no details there is no chance that these details could be wrong. And it is these details that allow to make decissions about them and thus playing the game.
On the other hand this is necessary to get a decission in time and no problem if there are enough elements to interact left. But highlyabstract games tend to level over areas where you would like to make relevant decissions.

OR, it could be that a system is glossing over negligible and minor effects and concentrating purely on the major choices that ultimately have the most consequences, so every decision in the game is important, instead of bogging down play with irrelevancies.

Maarzan · March 01, 2017, 11:12:00 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948098The notion that abstraction removes interesting decisions is nonsense. The CHAINMAIL 1:20 combat system is highly abstract, satisfactorily realistic, and an excellent medieval wargame. The OD&D combat system is quite abstract, and the game spread like wildfire. You're pushing a false dichotomy.

Yeah, and because everyone was/is completely satisfied, there were no other games spreading like wildfire shortly afterwards ... .

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948177OR, it could be that a system is glossing over negligible and minor effects and concentrating purely on the major choices that ultimately have the most consequences, so every decision in the game is important, instead of bogging down play with irrelevancies.

It could be. And if it is, nobody is complaining, because it never gets relevant.
But it looks different, when someone is starting to say "no, this can´t get considered ". You have to draw a line somewhere and if you have a focus for your game it can even help to emphazise it.
But if you are missing elements relatively near to the surface inside your focus you will get complains - sometimes expressed incorrectly as unrealistic when it is instead just below the abstraction radar.

Skarg · March 01, 2017, 01:45:05 PM

Quote from: Ras Algethi;948146Personally, I'd want to avoid a term that could be seen a pejorative which I could see unrealistic being. Also, all games are unrealistic to some degree. None are perfect simulations of life (who'd want that anyways!!).

I don't mean to be personally mean to Ras Algethi, but this is a textbook example of what non-realism-oriented players so often post into threads supposedly about realism in gaming. They don't care about realism, and don't get why some people do or what the distinctions are, but they don't want their gaming labeled unrealistic because that sounds negative, so they spam irrelevant objections to valuing realism, or the words used, or the philosophical impossibility or theoretical undesirability of realism, etc.

Ras Algethi · March 01, 2017, 02:27:55 PM

Quote from: Skarg;948288I don't mean to be personally mean to Ras Algethi, but this is a textbook example of what non-realism-oriented players so often post into threads supposedly about realism in gaming. They don't care about realism, and don't get why some people do or what the distinctions are, but they don't want their gaming labeled unrealistic because that sounds negative, so they spam irrelevant objections to valuing realism, or the words used, or the philosophical impossibility or theoretical undesirability of realism, etc.

I think you may have me confused with someone else. I like my games more towards the realistic side of things.

AsenRG · March 01, 2017, 07:00:55 PM

Quote from: Ras Algethi;948296I think you may have me confused with someone else. I like my games more towards the realistic side of things.

I'm pretty sure he means your statement "no game is purely realistic", not your games in general:).

Quote from: jhkim;948163The term "unrealistic" is usually a pejorative, but plenty of games positively advertise themselves as "cinematic" or "superheroic" or similar terms - which is intended as a direct contrast to realistic.

No game is perfectly realistic - but then, not even real-world scientific simulations are perfectly realistic. It's pointless goalpost-shifting that there is only "realistic" vs "unrealistic" - and that everything is "unrealistic".

In practice, there is a huge difference between Toon and HarnMaster. And I think HarnMaster is enjoyable for its realism, for some players.

Yeah, this;).
Do you mind me to using it as part of my signature, here or maybe on another forum?

jhkim · March 01, 2017, 07:12:47 PM

Quote from: AsenRG;948351Yeah, this;).
Do you mind me to using it as part of my signature, here or maybe on another forum?

No problem.

Ras Algethi · March 01, 2017, 09:17:39 PM

Quote from: AsenRG;948351I'm pretty sure he means your statement "no game is purely realistic", not your games in general:).

I hope so. It's just that "but this is a textbook example of what non-realism-oriented players so often post into threads supposedly about realism in gaming" seemed more like I was being placed in that group.

AsenRG · March 03, 2017, 04:26:53 PM

Quote from: Ras Algethi;948399I hope so. It's just that "but this is a textbook example of what non-realism-oriented players so often post into threads supposedly about realism in gaming" seemed more like I was being placed in that group.

That's both a bug and a feature of online communication. We can only judge you by what you say, for both good and ill, and what we say is almost never the complete picture because we don't want to write posts that rival "War and Peace" in volume:).
So, if something you said makes someone to misclassify you where you don't feel you belong, it's up to you to explain how that line fits in your larger worldview;).

Skarg · March 04, 2017, 01:05:01 PM

Quote from: Ras Algethi;948399I hope so. It's just that "but this is a textbook example of what non-realism-oriented players so often post into threads supposedly about realism in gaming" seemed more like I was being placed in that group.

Yes, as I wrote, I didn't mean it personally. I was talking about the ideas in that one post. It's interesting that you prefer realistic games. As I have posted a few times in this thread, it seems to me that most threads about realism in general gaming forums tend to get side-tracked by ideas such as you mentioned, and become pretty useless to my mind as a practical discussion about what's positive and interesting about realism in games. Usually, it seems to me, it is the anti-realism players who put in those and other ideas that make threads not about what's interesting about realistic rules.

Ras Algethi · March 06, 2017, 07:37:54 PM

Quote from: Skarg;948900Yes, as I wrote, I didn't mean it personally. I was talking about the ideas in that one post. It's interesting that you prefer realistic games. As I have posted a few times in this thread, it seems to me that most threads about realism in general gaming forums tend to get side-tracked by ideas such as you mentioned, and become pretty useless to my mind as a practical discussion about what's positive and interesting about realism in games. Usually, it seems to me, it is the anti-realism players who put in those and other ideas that make threads not about what's interesting about realistic rules.

Cool. I was just trying to not step over the line where I kicked dirt on someone's preferred style (less realism). Not my cup of tea, but if someone enjoys it, I don't want to make it sound like it's illegitimate.

AsenRG · March 06, 2017, 09:00:01 PM

Quote from: Ras Algethi;949614Cool. I was just trying to not step over the line where I kicked dirt on someone's preferred style (less realism). Not my cup of tea, but if someone enjoys it, I don't want to make it sound like it's illegitimate.

I understand the feeling, but given that people who prefer less realism don't go to such pains when talking about realistic games, I don't see a reason to be bothered about how my arguments sound;).