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Author Topic: Realism in RPGs  (Read 3043 times)

Mishihari

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Realism in RPGs
« on: May 28, 2021, 05:28:09 PM »
This came up in another thread and I'm curious how widespread my view on this issue is.  It usually comes up when somebody says something like "We have dragons in the game, so why not giant, carnivorous, acid (chemical or pharmaceutical, take your pick) marshmallow peeps?  Is your imagination so limited that you can't handle that?"

My view is that  making the game as close to realistic as possible while still incorporating the desired fantastic elements allows players to use their real-world intuition to make in-game decisions and increases both verisimilitude and immersion.  I'm fine with having a 30 pound halfling just as strong as the 500 pound half-ogre, if having such things is one of the premises of the game.  If it isn't I would like the half ogre to be vastly stronger, because that's what I would expect in real life.

The other issue of course is playability.  Some things are too much trouble to actually model realistically, and others (hello hit points!) make the game more fun even though they're very unrealistic.

Anyway, opinions?

EDIT:  Since it seems it may not be entirely clear, when I said "As realistic as possible" on the poll I meant "As realistic as possible while still incorporating the desired fantastic elements."  It looks like I can't edit the question.  I suppose it's just as well:  if it came out an overwhelming "yes" then I'd be tempted to change the question to "Is Mishihari the most awesome forum member ever?"
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 06:11:02 PM by Mishihari »

Zelen

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2021, 05:43:59 PM »
Do I want a game system that attempts to emulate reality? No.
Do I want a game setting where the setting introduces certain fantastical elements as part of an agreed upon set of shared narrative expectations? Yes.
Do I want a game setting where anything goes because A exists, so why not B? No.

Jam The MF

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2021, 05:51:23 PM »
It depends upon the goals of the system.  State the system's goals plainly.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2021, 05:54:49 PM »
After a certain point, realism needs to be set aside.

Why do we play RPGs? At the core, they are games. Why do we play games?

Entertainment.

I don't get a lot of entertainment out of 'realism' after a certain point. If I want realism, I can walk outside.

Yes, there are certain games that benefit from it. But who really wants to play three sessions and then have to reroll because your PC died of dysentery?

SHARK

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2021, 05:55:15 PM »
This came up in another thread and I'm curious how widespread my view on this issue is.  It usually comes up when somebody says something like "We have dragons in the game, so why not giant, carnivorous, acid (chemical or pharmaceutical, take your pick) marshmallow peeps?  Is your imagination so limited that you can't handle that?"

My view is that  making the game as close to realistic as possible while still incorporating the desired fantastic elements allows players to use their real-world intuition to make in-game decisions and increases both verisimilitude and immersion.  I'm fine with having a 30 pound halfling just as strong as the 500 pound half-ogre, if having such things is one of the premises of the game.  If it isn't I would like the half ogre to be vastly stronger, because that's what I would expect in real life.

The other issue of course is playability.  Some things are too much trouble to actually model realistically, and others (hello hit points!) make the game more fun even though they're very unrealistic.

Anyway, opinions?

Greetings!

I agree, Mishihari! In the fantasy game world, I want everything to be more or less realistic as possible, except for A, B, and C, or whatever as you described as the premises of the world. Dragons, witches, demons, whatever, are all good, but there are a zillion aspects of the game world that routinely operate along realistic expectations, strength, gravity, thirst, and on and on.

I have a humanoid race, influenced by strong demonic heritage and regularly embracing dark magic, where this race of evil humanoids are typically monstrous in appearance, having oversized heads, large mouths full of teeth, strong claws, and generally having a stretched, gaunt look to them. Most of them are 5-feet tall, or shorter. Despite being generally short in stature, and having a thin, grotesque appearance, the creatures are very swift moving, agile, and possess formidable, unnatural strength. Their skin is a pale gray or charcoal black in colour, with bright, luminous amber coloured eyes. They are savage, bloodthirsty, and monstrous, typically preying upon humans and other humanoids, as well as creatures of Light. These horrible creatures typically make their lairs from dugout tunnels and chambers, subterranean dungeons and complexes near graveyards, cemeteries, or abandoned areas on the fringes of a civilized community. The creatures venture out to make daylight raids on occasion, favouring dark, cloudy and somber weather, though the monsters are very active and aggressive at night. Such terrifying creatures serve the Dark Gods, and love to devour humans. The creatures eagerly capture and enslave victims, especially the young, the innocent, and beautiful, using them as breeding slaves. Other captured enemies deemed unsuitable for breeding are tortured and ripped apart and eaten in terrifying feasts by flickering bonfires, or stretched upon a stone altar and sacrificed to their Dark Gods.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Omega

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2021, 05:57:11 PM »
For me at least depends on the setting and what is and is not possible within the system.

So someone bitching about halflings being strong in a fantasy setting where magic and training can boost anyone up is not realistic to me.
Whereas in say BX no such thing exists and your stats are pretty much set at chargen other than a rare few items that temp boost. So there too everyone is on the same playing field and bitching about strong halflings is idiotic. As is bitching about there not being any race bonus/malus at all. This also applies to games like AD&D where again you can exceed the limits.

On the other hand in AD&D halflings do indeed average weaker than humans and for them getting past that limit is quite a hurdle. But can be done.
Whereas in 5e no race has a malus to stats so its more a factor what races can get to the cap of 20 easier. Several races will take a bit longer to get there than say a half orc. So one could say that halflings average a little weaker than other hardier races. But through effort can get up there.

All this fits rather well with heroes in folklore who often had freakish stats or are benefiting from supernatural gifts or bloodlines.

None of which though fits in a more grounded setting and in fact halflings and elves and the like might not be realistic to that setting at all. Excellent example is AD&D Conan where there are no non-human PC races, and monsters if the typical sorts are alot less common. As well as a much more restricted class selection because none of these things were deemed "realistic" to the setting.

Similarly a setting might be such that dungeons are not "realistic" and the bulk of adventuring is overland and cityside. Pretty much how Dragon Storm worked for example.

Same applies to tech. It fits say Blackmoor. But does not fit Dragonlance.

One personal "unrealistic" irk is when morons keep trying to justify artificial gravity and linear ships in Star Frontiers using bad art as "proof". Sorry, no. Doesnt work that way.

Mishihari

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2021, 06:09:04 PM »
Since it seems it may not be entirely clear, when I said "As realistic as possible" I meant "As realistic as possible while still incorporating the desired fantastic elements."  It looks like I can't edit the question.  I suppose it's just as well:  if it came out an overwhelming "yes" then I'd be tempted to change the question to "Is Mishihari the most awesome forum member ever?"

jhkim

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2021, 06:24:53 PM »
Yeah, it depends on genre and intent.

Systems I like that I think are deliberately unrealistic:

Paranoia
James Bond 007
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Amber Diceless

Systems I like that are more realistic:

Call of Cthulhu
Harnmaster
Runequest
GURPS

Pat
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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2021, 06:30:35 PM »
No. Even realistic RPGs aren't realistic. The word you should have used is verisimilitude.

Mishihari

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2021, 06:49:32 PM »
No. Even realistic RPGs aren't realistic. The word you should have used is verisimilitude.

Actually, I considered that point, and I meant realism, not verisimilitude.  They're similar things: realism is fidelity to reality and verisimilitude is fidelity to a known set of fiction.  We base pretty much all of our decisions on our knowledge of reality, even in games.  Things fall down, water is wet, fire burns, and so on.  We don't and can't have rules to cover all of these things.  Verisimilitude is covered in the "desired fantasy elements" part of my statement and can include not only things like magic, but also genre tropes like "action heroes don't die when they charge into a hail of machine gun bullets."  My position is that fantasy elements should be those and only those placed in the game to support the desired play experience, and everything else should be realistic.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2021, 07:06:00 PM »
I want rpgs realistic in the sense they follow some kind of internal logic and consistency. I'm happy to have unrealistic and certain fantastical elements as long as it's does'nt ever veer too much into high-fantasy. I just prefer low fantasy stuff in general.

Super duper floating Combat wheelchair... Uh, okay I guess in a D&D high-fantasy 5e setting (and as long as I don't ever have to GM it). But not on your life in a low-fantasy setting.

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Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2021, 07:07:42 PM »
My view is that  making the game as close to realistic as possible while still incorporating the desired fantastic elements.

Sounds about right to me.
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Pat
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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2021, 07:26:51 PM »
No. Even realistic RPGs aren't realistic. The word you should have used is verisimilitude.

Actually, I considered that point, and I meant realism, not verisimilitude.  They're similar things: realism is fidelity to reality and verisimilitude is fidelity to a known set of fiction.  We base pretty much all of our decisions on our knowledge of reality, even in games.  Things fall down, water is wet, fire burns, and so on.  We don't and can't have rules to cover all of these things.  Verisimilitude is covered in the "desired fantasy elements" part of my statement and can include not only things like magic, but also genre tropes like "action heroes don't die when they charge into a hail of machine gun bullets."  My position is that fantasy elements should be those and only those placed in the game to support the desired play experience, and everything else should be realistic.
No, that's not what verisimilitude means. Verisimilitude the appearance of reality. Emulating genre conventions is a completely unrelated concept. And if you're talking about highly unrealistic genres like wuxia or high fantasy, it's almost the opposite.

You should have used verisimilitude. Consider even simple things like conversations in film. If you compare a recording of a real conversation to a film conversation, even one that's celebrated for being true to life, you'll quickly realize they're stylized and bear only a superficial resemblance to real conversations. You can't emulate reality, and trying tends to cause the game to snowball in meaningless complexity that ultimately feels forced and artificial, because what players want isn't reality, it's the appearance of reality. That's the art of a presenting a fictional property in a way that tricks the listener of a story or the participant of a game into turning off part of the their critical faculties and accepting it, at least to some degree, as real.

SHARK

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2021, 07:38:28 PM »
Greetings!

Many people can't spell verisimilitude, or remember how to spell it. In general, *realism* in games is used as a synonym for verisimilitude. Pretty much interchangeable concepts when people are talking about fantasy game campaigns.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Realism in RPGs
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2021, 07:52:02 PM »
Too many variables. Even between different campaign settings. So I voted "other".

To attempt a more useful answer, I expect a set of game rules of have a heavy layer of abstraction. I really don't want to track every atom and molecule in the game world. Abstraction necessarily means that the game is going to have some unrealistic-ness.

I do expect a game system to be fun. And then we have to define what fun is. Things can be fun in different ways to different people. That's where the huge amount of variability comes in.

I do agree that just because a game has dragons and magic doesn't mean the game can just go bonkers with rationalizations. As Jay Bauman once said "Something has to matter." Re-reading that, I think that's a big factor. When nothing matters, then the whole experience falls apart. In the case of the halfling with 18 strength, that signifies to the players that the game has decoupled physical strength from any attempt to emulate what we know about bodies and strength. The more stuff like that in the game, the more the game is detached from what we expect, and it starts floating around like a surreal cartoon.

So there you go. A nice wishy washy waffly answer. :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 07:58:34 PM by Ratman_tf »
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