This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.

Author Topic: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]  (Read 3950 times)

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3919
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2021, 01:45:00 PM »
Quote
Intent should have no bearing on corruption. White/Gray/Black as you've posited them here (which I think is perfectly fine) are indicative of *methodology* as a well as fundamental source.

Of course it do, at least if we're trying interpret it in ways of some fantasy variant of Christianity GeekyBungle wants to create AFAIK.
Intent is also as decision of free will, part of spiritual reality creating spell, and in system with clear Good God - evil fallen angels division - of course using even good methodologically magic in wicked purpose will bring you closer to well... fallen. Even if that's just 1/3 of equation.

Exactly, plus, unless ALL the magic spells in your fantasy lack a spoken component or are spoken in a super duper secret language then Intent should matter just to be able to cast a spell.

Imagine a witch talking to her friend about her husband and for whatever reason the witch uthers the words " He doesn't love you".

Without intent in the equation then she has cast a spell either convincing her friend her husband doesn't love her or breaking the love bond between him and her one way only.

In some spells this is taken into account by the ritual needed, but what about a superpowerfull witch? She must never speak nor write anything cuz she might cast a spell without wanting.

So Intent should ALWAYS be a part of the equation IMHO.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GriswaldTerrastone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • BANNED
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2021, 04:22:43 PM »
Probably any kind of magic that requires torture would be black magic. Certain primitive tribes on our world believed doing such things gave "power."

What you seem to be doing is somewhat similar to the idea of karma- very unique. Good luck with your efforts here!
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3919
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2021, 05:20:42 PM »
Probably any kind of magic that requires torture would be black magic. Certain primitive tribes on our world believed doing such things gave "power."

What you seem to be doing is somewhat similar to the idea of karma- very unique. Good luck with your efforts here!

And blood magic if the blood donor is unwilling. Human sacrifice is always black too.

What I'm trying to do is to have white spellcasters in a setting where God (the Christian one) is real, so is Lucifer, now how do I put the square peg into the round hole?

Especially since my not-cleric would hunt down witches and the like.

So I need a list of spells that fit at least the white and black magic categories.

With that I can have a spellcaster as a PC. If I can't manage it then Buh bye PC spell casters.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GriswaldTerrastone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • BANNED
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2021, 05:26:50 PM »
In your case a "white" magician is actually channeling power from God- this would require the best behavior, faith, and caution. Protection spells would be especially strong, as would healing and the like.

Black magic (Satan) would be effective, but to make certain black magicians are in his grasp any such cleric would be required to do some pretty nasty stuff to get that power; causing disease would require making (good) victims suffer during the ritual, for example.

Demons and angels might come into it. If a black magician calls upon a demon a good cleric can call for help from an angel.

A paladin could have a sword that literally channels divine power in it, thus making it especially effective against demonic foes, or anyone using evil power. By the same token an evil warrior could have a weapon that channels evil power, causing pain, disease, whatever against a foe.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 05:30:19 PM by GriswaldTerrastone »
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3919
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2021, 05:42:51 PM »
In your case a "white" magician is actually channeling power from God- this would require the best behavior, faith, and caution. Protection spells would be especially strong, as would healing and the like.

Black magic (Satan) would be effective, but to make certain black magicians are in his grasp any such cleric would be required to do some pretty nasty stuff to get that power; causing disease would require making (good) victims suffer during the ritual, for example.

Demons and angels might come into it. If a black magician calls upon a demon a good cleric can call for help from an angel.

A paladin could have a sword that literally channels divine power in it, thus making it especially effective against demonic foes, or anyone using evil power. By the same token an evil warrior could have a weapon that channels evil power, causing pain, disease, whatever against a foe.

Nope, my totally not-cleric isn't a spell caster, he prays to God and is able to perform miracles this way. I'm calling it a not-Cleric because of the overhaul I'm giving it. I'm making it Christian but also removing some limitations that given my setting make no sense.

What I'm after is a White Witch, in my head Witches are born, some mutation or something in their lineage allows them to feel and manipulate magic energy. Women are more likelly to be a witch even if the Father was a witch himself. Women are also usually way more powerful than men.

Now a witch isn't automatically evil (IF I can manage to do this), but black magic is very tempting due to it's power and extended range of spells, almost zero limitations on what it can do (no spell can give life, only black magic spells can create a mockery of it).

Black witches "eat" white ones to feed their own powers.

There's firearms, modern ones, and no limitation on either The Blessed or a White Witch to use them or to draw blood if done in self defense or to protect the world from evil. (I mean kill with daggers, swords, etc.)

I'm almost done with The Blessed (My totally not-cleric)

The Witch is done but for the spell list.

If I can't find a cohesive and setting coherent division of spells and magic rules (I mean the rules the PC has to obey not the game mechanics) then I'll jetison The Witch and make do with The Scientist until such a time when I manage to make the class work inworld.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GriswaldTerrastone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • BANNED
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2021, 05:48:24 PM »
Well, I did say "channel..."  ;)
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3919
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2021, 05:55:53 PM »
Well, I did say "channel..."  ;)

That you did, and in a sense yes, since, IF I can make it work, in my world white witches channel the leftover energy of the creation and of the celestial battles fought by Angels against demons, but only the clean ones due to the way they work their spells, to be able to use the enrgy of destroyed demons or demonic energy leftovers from their "spells" the witch needs to do black magic rituals since it doesn't respond to the white ones.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Wrath of God

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Fearful Symmetry
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #82 on: October 09, 2021, 07:51:42 PM »
Quote
Exactly, plus, unless ALL the magic spells in your fantasy lack a spoken component or are spoken in a super duper secret language then Intent should matter just to be able to cast a spell.

Imagine a witch talking to her friend about her husband and for whatever reason the witch uthers the words " He doesn't love you".

Well generally in most of fantasy intent is needed, or specific ritual language (which does not have to be foreign or secret but highly ritualised.

Quote
In some spells this is taken into account by the ritual needed, but what about a superpowerfull witch? She must never speak nor write anything cuz she might cast a spell without wanting.

So Intent should ALWAYS be a part of the equation IMHO.

I think in theory you could skip it - like if we go route Arcane as very obscure Philosophy/Natural Science then making something can... always work even without intent of will in theory. But since magic in arcane version usually demands extremely high mathematical understanding of reality - it seems to hard to make it... intentless. But maybe some magical automatons... who knows.

Quote
What I'm trying to do is to have white spellcasters in a setting where God (the Christian one) is real, so is Lucifer, now how do I put the square peg into the round hole?

Especially since my not-cleric would hunt down witches and the like.

So I need a list of spells that fit at least the white and black magic categories.

I think simple solution to think about each spell is - are you using, exploiting or breaking natural law (both in matter of spell, intent of will, and seeking source of power). Let's say lighting bolt is theoretically natural phenomena - but calling it down from cloudy sky would be still white (assuming it's in good intent), calling it from clear sky goes into grey, shooting lightings from own fingertip goes black. That would also explain why blacks works on higher power deficit - doing unnatural tricks are simply harder than using nature around you. That would sort of put white magic into area of white druidism I think. Druid vs. classic magic-user - vs warlocks.

Considering you go for born natural witches I think good aligned nature magic seems like obvious forte.

"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3919
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #83 on: October 09, 2021, 09:54:54 PM »
Quote
Exactly, plus, unless ALL the magic spells in your fantasy lack a spoken component or are spoken in a super duper secret language then Intent should matter just to be able to cast a spell.

Imagine a witch talking to her friend about her husband and for whatever reason the witch uthers the words " He doesn't love you".

Well generally in most of fantasy intent is needed, or specific ritual language (which does not have to be foreign or secret but highly ritualised.

Quote
In some spells this is taken into account by the ritual needed, but what about a superpowerfull witch? She must never speak nor write anything cuz she might cast a spell without wanting.

So Intent should ALWAYS be a part of the equation IMHO.

I think in theory you could skip it - like if we go route Arcane as very obscure Philosophy/Natural Science then making something can... always work even without intent of will in theory. But since magic in arcane version usually demands extremely high mathematical understanding of reality - it seems to hard to make it... intentless. But maybe some magical automatons... who knows.

Quote
What I'm trying to do is to have white spellcasters in a setting where God (the Christian one) is real, so is Lucifer, now how do I put the square peg into the round hole?

Especially since my not-cleric would hunt down witches and the like.

So I need a list of spells that fit at least the white and black magic categories.

I think simple solution to think about each spell is - are you using, exploiting or breaking natural law (both in matter of spell, intent of will, and seeking source of power). Let's say lighting bolt is theoretically natural phenomena - but calling it down from cloudy sky would be still white (assuming it's in good intent), calling it from clear sky goes into grey, shooting lightings from own fingertip goes black. That would also explain why blacks works on higher power deficit - doing unnatural tricks are simply harder than using nature around you. That would sort of put white magic into area of white druidism I think. Druid vs. classic magic-user - vs warlocks.

Considering you go for born natural witches I think good aligned nature magic seems like obvious forte.

Thanks, yes it would seem Druidic magic is the best fit, will try and sort those spells to see what makes sense to me taking into account the setting.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell