Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 25, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure. 

And maybe sometimes that means being carried around some of the time.

Different folks, different strokes.  My gaming isn't threatened when others choose to make disadvantaged characters easier to include.  I certainly don't feel the need to rain on their parade by announcing in advance that any PC with a disability will get eaten by dinosaurs, rather than give it an honest try.  No need to put on training wheels - a character that chooses disadvantages has to overcome those disadvantages - but I can definitely see the appeal. 

And yes, there are clearly numerous characters in at least source-adjacent material that deal with limited mobility in one form or another.  As for magic as a solution?  Depends on the campaign. 

I kinda feel like a world with dragons that features numerous retired adventurers who are missing a limb or two makes the world feel more realistic, not less.

See, here's the thing-

I agree with this to a certain extent.

But Brandon Stark wasn't an "ass-kicking adventurer".   He was sitting in the back, for the most part.  Or he was warging, and gaining intelligence.  Or doing some other stuff, and needed to be protected- a lot.  If someone wanted to play a handicapped character, and the character was actually handicapped, where it was part of the story.  Okay, I'd be for it.   Brandon Stark was a noble, needed to be protected, there was a story around it that made sense. 

But that's truly not the impression I get from the 5E art anyway.  It's "I'm handicapped, and I'm going an adventure to kick some monster ass!".

Uh, no, you're not.  You're in a wheelchair.  You need the big guy to carry you to the destination.  And you need someone to push you. And you'll be travelling in plenty of places where being pushed in a chair just won't be possible.  And you need to the warriors to protect you.  And there should be a good reason for them to do so.  You're a liability.  Unless there's a story reason they should do so (aka Brandon Stark) why is this happening? 

Another poster mentioned Professor X.  Sure, Professor X is a modern day character.  That makes sense.  Hell, one of my favorite characters is "The Chief" from Doom Patrol.

It's the 5E "I'm in a wheelchair to go dungeon crawling" art that kinda got my goat. 

I could see a Wheelchair bound character thriving in Call of Cthulu, where they sit and do research and never confront the mythos- except in tomes brought back by more active investigators.  Going to the library and stuff, and staying in a secure location.  But they better hope to god the cultists don't find them...

But again, this isn't a fantasy adventure character though.  A fantasy adventure character in a wheelchair, I still maintain is pure virtue signaling.  Your average player is not George R.R. Martin.

The combat wheelchair problem isn't that its rediculous. Its that the same people that say that chainmail bikinis are rediculous and not to be allowed, insist that this ISN'T rediculous and your not allowed to find them rediculous.

This isn't the first time burger kids fun club characters have appeared in media. But only recently has it been demanded that you MUST adore and love them. Or at least never voice dissent.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 25, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure. 

If someone wanted to play a centaur, I would not make the campaign "centaur accessible". They would deal with the consequences of being a huge horse person in a human town or dungeon.
Just like a character in a wheelchair.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 25, 2021, 06:36:42 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 25, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure. 

If someone wanted to play a centaur, I would not make the campaign "centaur accessible". They would deal with the consequences of being a huge horse person in a human town or dungeon.
Just like a character in a wheelchair.

Had this with planescape s goat dudes

In my more 'espionage' fantasy game, I have my party of weirdos disguise themselves all the time to not stand out.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 25, 2021, 04:37:55 PM

Quote from: Prairie Dragon on September 25, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
A wheelchair has been used to help tell some great stories IMHO.  Brandon Stark.  Xavier.  Probably a few others.  ...

There is a difference between stories, and a game where you have to sit down with three other people to play that a lot of "Combat wheelchair advocates" are missing.

Brandon Stark, Xavier, are fine in their media. But at a gaming table?

Nobody liked old school netrunning mechanics back in the day when everyone else was put on pause, and the hacker ran his little side quest for 20 minutes defeating the ICE in the buildings security.

The latest editions of any cyberpunk game have all taken steps to eliminate that mode of play in their game mechanics.

Specifically because nobody liked it.

Characters with astral projection abilities fall into the same category. Not a common feature in games because it invariably runs into the same old school netrunning issues at the table during play.

RPGs are derivative of wargames. And they work best when the PC group (which are all variants of a Spec Ops team, no matter the genre), are able to seamlessly work  together during the action.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 24, 2021, 05:25:39 PM
Worse, it becomes affectation. The appearance of disability as a fashion statement.

It is also a way of making all the other players in the group continually conform their PCs actions around the specific limitations one character brings to the party.

What's hilarious is that the "combat wheelchair" is being heavily pushed within the D&D sphere as a 'viable' thing.

Yet in all the 'combat wheelchair' art I have seen, the 'PC' still has both legs... WTF!?  Do these people not realize that in 5e D&D RAW that the PC will be able to walk the first time they get hit with any kind of magical healing?

Its rather interesting how their power gaming 'combat wheelchair' fantasy art seems to depict lots of paraplegics, but no amputee's...


To bring it back on topic: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"

We Don't. We play the long game, and go around them.

We set up parallel institutions and games, then deny the SJWs entry as they inevitably run everything they control into the ground.

Let them eat cake. It's the only way.

Greetings!

Exactly, Jaeger!

If the campaign has sufficient magic to heal characters of severe injuries--then no Player Character is ever going to be stuck in a fucking wheelchair.

If the campaign is generally low-magic, and such healing magic is not available to heal a character stuck in a fucking wheelchair--then the crippled character is a constant liability, and it's just stupid and asinine to consider bringing such a crippled character seeking to accompany the other healthy, normal player characters as they go mountain climbing, swimming across rivers, and delving into subterranean dungeons. Of course, infiltrating subterranean dungeons no doubt often incudes running swiftly up and down stairs, climbing up ropes to scale walls or earth tubes or tunnels, climbing in and out of jagged, steep chasms, or making one's way along treacherous, narrow ledges where people have to hug the wall and proceed single-file, as they overlook a black abyss below them.

Such dangerous environments are often quite challenging even for healthy, athletic, normal people to negotiate successfully. How much more difficult would such endeavors be for a crippled character stuck in a wheelchair? I would say not merely "difficult"--but assuming a low-magic world where such a character cannot get healed of such crippling injuries--it would be simply impossible.

Geesus. Stop with the fucking Fetishization and pandering for virtue-signaling. Stop trying to embrace stupid fucking pandering character ideas designed to keep everyone else's attention and concern on "How can we help the fucking cripple?"--and make up a properly-functioning, normal character to begin with. The rest of the group surely doesn't want to always be carrying the fucking crippled person around, and always needing to make allowances and plans and work-arounds just to accommodate keeping this weak character alive.

It would be far more efficient to let the Tyrannosaurs devour the wheelchair cripple--or retire such a pathetic character at the nearest town and recruit a new character that can actually carry their own weight and keep up with the rest of the group as they go on dangerous adventures.

No outfit of warriors--in ancient times or modern times--would ever bring along some crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. The very idea of such a pathetic character making it out in the wilderness is fucking laughable. Hell, even in our modern era, in uber coddled cities with many, many conveniences and allowances, people in wheelchairs experience far more difficulties and are confronted with impossible activities. In an ancient or medieval environment? The whole idea is just stupid and weird.

As for Xavier and a few others, yeah, they exist in TV/Movies where everyone around them can coddle them, or the Director's can ensure they are never fucked. That isn't dungeon-crawling in a brutal, primitive medieval world.

Even Ivar from Vikings, while an unusual character, is still a character in a TV story, where everything is set and directed to feature him and cater to him. Ivar historically was also a Viking *noble*--so even on some quasi-hstorical basis, had lots of people catering to him, and tolerating him. A *COMMONER* Viking would have been stuck living in the poor section of town down by the fiord, reduced to fishing just to stay alive. A crippled *COMMONER* Viking certainly wouldn't be going raiding with the warriors. He'd be lucky to successfully raid his chicken-coop for eggs every morning.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

There's always Ravenor, the WH40K Inquisitor with god-level psyker powers nested within an armoured, life-supporting hoverchair. If he were an RPG character, he'd be the posterboy for what happens when you let some players go to town with getting points back from flaws along with a GM that doesn't ensure that flaws that don't remain meaningful don't really count as flaws anymore.

Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
No outfit of warriors--in ancient times or modern times--would ever bring along some crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. The very idea of such a pathetic character making it out in the wilderness is fucking laughable. Hell, even in our modern era, in uber coddled cities with many, many conveniences and allowances, people in wheelchairs experience far more difficulties and are confronted with impossible activities. In an ancient or medieval environment? The whole idea is just stupid and weird.

As for Xavier and a few others, yeah, they exist in TV/Movies where everyone around them can coddle them, or the Director's can ensure they are never fucked. That isn't dungeon-crawling in a brutal, primitive medieval world.

This makes no sense. Xavier isn't a weakling protected by plot. He's a telepath and mind controller who if anything is hugely overpowered. The power he brings to the team is enormous. Most enemies could be simply taken over and become aids that help act further. If anything, it's the opposite - the writers and directors twist the plot around so that for mysterious reasons they *don't* bring him and *don't* use his power to just win automatically.

In an X-men RPG, I think Xavier would be unsuitable as a PC not because he's too weak, but because he's overpowered.

Yes, in a setting with no magic or superpowers at all, then a disabled PC likely doesn't make sense. But given any degree of powers, then yeah - I've seen plenty of characters who had various disabilities but their powers outweighed their weaknesses.

Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
Even Ivar from Vikings, while an unusual character, is still a character in a TV story, where everything is set and directed to feature him and cater to him. Ivar historically was also a Viking *noble*--so even on some quasi-hstorical basis, had lots of people catering to him, and tolerating him. A *COMMONER* Viking would have been stuck living in the poor section of town down by the fiord, reduced to fishing just to stay alive. A crippled *COMMONER* Viking certainly wouldn't be going raiding with the warriors. He'd be lucky to successfully raid his chicken-coop for eggs every morning.

So what? Are you suggesting that PCs can't be nobles?

In my old vikings campaign, the group would bring their prophetess Silksif with them (who was a PC). She wasn't disabled - but she was no fighter and not particularly athletic. Even if she was disabled, though, they'd still want to bring her along because she was vital. They wanted the spirits on their side - and in game terms, she was magically powerful.

You do your game however you like - but the line of reasoning you have here doesn't make sense. Characters can have powers, including social power, that outweigh weaknesses.

Quote from: jhkim on September 26, 2021, 04:13:13 AM

Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
No outfit of warriors--in ancient times or modern times--would ever bring along some crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. The very idea of such a pathetic character making it out in the wilderness is fucking laughable. Hell, even in our modern era, in uber coddled cities with many, many conveniences and allowances, people in wheelchairs experience far more difficulties and are confronted with impossible activities. In an ancient or medieval environment? The whole idea is just stupid and weird.

As for Xavier and a few others, yeah, they exist in TV/Movies where everyone around them can coddle them, or the Director's can ensure they are never fucked. That isn't dungeon-crawling in a brutal, primitive medieval world.

This makes no sense. Xavier isn't a weakling protected by plot. He's a telepath and mind controller who if anything is hugely overpowered. The power he brings to the team is enormous. Most enemies could be simply taken over and become aids that help act further. If anything, it's the opposite - the writers and directors twist the plot around so that for mysterious reasons they *don't* bring him and *don't* use his power to just win automatically.

In an X-men RPG, I think Xavier would be unsuitable as a PC not because he's too weak, but because he's overpowered.

Yes, in a setting with no magic or superpowers at all, then a disabled PC likely doesn't make sense. But given any degree of powers, then yeah - I've seen plenty of characters who had various disabilities but their powers outweighed their weaknesses.

Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
Even Ivar from Vikings, while an unusual character, is still a character in a TV story, where everything is set and directed to feature him and cater to him. Ivar historically was also a Viking *noble*--so even on some quasi-hstorical basis, had lots of people catering to him, and tolerating him. A *COMMONER* Viking would have been stuck living in the poor section of town down by the fiord, reduced to fishing just to stay alive. A crippled *COMMONER* Viking certainly wouldn't be going raiding with the warriors. He'd be lucky to successfully raid his chicken-coop for eggs every morning.

So what? Are you suggesting that PCs can't be nobles?

In my old vikings campaign, the group would bring their prophetess Silksif with them (who was a PC). She wasn't disabled - but she was no fighter and not particularly athletic. Even if she was disabled, though, they'd still want to bring her along because she was vital. They wanted the spirits on their side - and in game terms, she was magically powerful.

You do your game however you like - but the line of reasoning you have here doesn't make sense. Characters can have powers, including social power, that outweigh weaknesses.

Greetings!

I don't care about "X-Men". D&D is the main game being discussed. Telepaths, cyber, whatever special uber superhero powers, whatever. Not relevant. That's an entirely different game, modern/sci-fi, and totally different from D&D set in a medieval world and campaign.

My line of reasoning doesn't make sense? What is confusing?

In a high-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They would be magically healed, and thus be normal, and not crippled and be stuck in a ridiculous wheelchair.

In a low-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair is a definite and ridiculous liability to the rest of the party, presumably involved in dangerous wilderness journeys and adventures into subterranean dungeons, all of which represents a cascading series of never-ending physical and mobility challenges on a crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. Furthermore, socially and operationally, such a party of adventurers would clearly be better served by simply recruiting a normal, healthy character. Much less of a liability, and much less operational problems, carrying the cripple, worrying about their fucking wheelchair, them being unable to climb up stairs, adders, or ropes, negotiate narrow crevice-like pathways, crawl up and down chasms, swim across rivers, and much more besides. Unless of course, someone is just hellbent on fucking virtue-signaling, and generally enjoys being a liability nd special-attention snowlake that demands constant attention and coddling from others in the group. Out-of-game virtue-signaling BS aside, IN-GAME reasoning just makes the whole prospect of recruiting a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair ridiculous.

That's my line of reasoning.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I've just got a single question. In a game where Warforged are a race and magitech is a thing, why would you want to be confined to a wheelchair when an artificial limb(s) can be built (or conjured, or regenerated)?


EDIT: Just got through reading the entire thread. Others have used this argument to greater effect. Mea culpa.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 25, 2021, 06:36:42 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 25, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure. 

If someone wanted to play a centaur, I would not make the campaign "centaur accessible". They would deal with the consequences of being a huge horse person in a human town or dungeon.
Just like a character in a wheelchair.

Also of note; horses are shockingly maneuverable compared to what non-horse owners think. We have a 1200 lb. quarter horse who can belly crawl through the two foot gap between the gate and the ground at the front of our barn unless we also close the sliding door most of the way and put a garage can (the big kind the trucks pick up) across the remaining open space. He can turn around in what would be a 5' corridor in D&D. He can also work a door handle with his lips. He does this because he knows where we store the grain and wants more than we actually give him (because more would make him sick) and it's a constant struggle to keep him from figuring ways around those obstacles.

Anyway, sticking a human torso where his neck is, as long as it could lean at same angles his neck could reach wouldn't significantly impact his ability to navigate your typical dungeon. Make the horse-part more pony or donkey sized and there would be very few places a human could go that a centaur couldn't (I even came up with a trait in my system called "oversized" applied to certain creatures to essentially straddle the medium; which it was treated as for most purposes; and large size categories just because of my knowledge of the things that smaller "large creatures" could actually get into).

Getting pissed about people playing wheelchair bound characters is a non-issue nobody should be wasting their time on. If you think it breaks your immersion too much, just don't allow it at your table, it really is that simple. Trying to argue how other people should and shouldn't play their games is exactly the worst kind of SJW nonsense.

I've ran Call of Cthulu and Deadlands games where I've had wheelchair bound characters and it was handled realistically.

I've also ran a recent Cyberpunk Campaign where a character used the Spider Wheelchair that gave them the exact same effective movement of any other character with a few extra bells and whistles.

D&D's magic level is all over the place depending on what setting you're using. If you wanna be 'that guy' who says No to the player who wants to be in a wheel chair and adventure that's on you. But don't tell other people what they should and should not do in their own home games. That just makes you exactly what you hate.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Getting pissed about people playing wheelchair bound characters is a non-issue nobody should be wasting their time on. If you think it breaks your immersion too much, just don't allow it at your table, it really is that simple. Trying to argue how other people should and shouldn't play their games is exactly the worst kind of SJW nonsense.

I've ran Call of Cthulu and Deadlands games where I've had wheelchair bound characters and it was handled realistically.

I've also ran a recent Cyberpunk Campaign where a character used the Spider Wheelchair that gave them the exact same effective movement of any other character with a few extra bells and whistles.

D&D's magic level is all over the place depending on what setting you're using. If you wanna be 'that guy' who says No to the player who wants to be in a wheel chair and adventure that's on you. But don't tell other people what they should and should not do in their own home games. That just makes you exactly what you hate.

No one is saying they're not allowed just that the concept is fucking retarded and that it doesn't make sense in the implied setting of dnd. Would be fine in a low magic intrigue heavy game. It comes off as the player who wants to be blind but can also see better than everyone else like daredevil or even putting zatoichi to shame

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 26, 2021, 07:24:23 AM
I've just got a single question. In a game where Warforged are a race and magitech is a thing, why would you want to be confined to a wheelchair when an artificial limb(s) can be built (or conjured, or regenerated)?

Eberron has artificial limbs, which would work for amputees. If someone has a spinal cord injury, though, possibly artificial legs wouldn't work any better than their flesh legs. Other D&D settings don't necessarily have either Warforged or artificial limbs.