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Author Topic: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"  (Read 13822 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2021, 05:29:51 PM »
If you ban any using the word "bigot" then that isn't free speech. On the other hand, as I said, in the current environment, I don't think that MAGA-hat-wearer gamers and BLM-shirt-wearing gamers will be able to game together in peace. Thus, I think allowing full free speech isn't compatible with a focus on fun, non-political gaming together.

You can either have a free-for-all convention space that could be disrupted by political arguments and confrontations, or you can have a moderated convention space that focuses on gaming.

IMO, the latter is fine. A game convention isn't a public forum. Organizers can and should ban people for saying things that are legal speech, but disruptive to the gaming environment.

  I agree with this in theory,  However in practice it means you will keep your mouth shut when people espouse the wonders of the BLM organization and movement, and be promptly banned for saying there are gamers out there who have no interest in gender identity issues.   So it is not in any way moderated in a centrist way.

Is that true of local conventions in conservative areas? I'm in the SF Bay Area, and that's a fair cop here -- but I would think it depends who is moderating it. I don't have a problem with any of centrist or left-leaning or right-leaning moderation, but centrist isn't the same as free-for-all. It would still be effectively banning people outside the mainstream as disruptive. It means that people with radical views need to keep their mouths shut and not speak up about the centrist stuff being expressed.


That's the trick, ain't it? A few vocal assholes make things political, and then you either have to let them walk all over everyone else, or push back and get accused of "making things political".

    Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace;  likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.

Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.

To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be:  A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?

Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.
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jeff37923

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2021, 05:36:33 PM »
To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game isis absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be:  A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?


WTF?

You proclaim that you want to keep this on gaming and then try to turn it into a discussion on whether or not homophobia is acceptable? Did you include this just to get your daily quota of Christian bashing in?

jhkim

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM »
    Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace;  likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.

Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.

To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be:  A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?

Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.

Nobody was talking about fucking wedding cakes either, but somehow you didn't object to oggsmash bringing those up to score points.

Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for

(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage

I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.

Ratman_tf

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2021, 06:54:41 PM »
    Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace;  likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.

Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.

To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be:  A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?

Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.

Nobody was talking about fucking wedding cakes either, but somehow you didn't object to oggsmash bringing those up to score points.

1. That doesn't make what you typed any better.

2. To be quite honest, I'm still having trouble parsing what oggsmash typed. That's why I haven't replied. At best/worst, the comparison is so tenuous that it's not applicable. That's a far cry from insinuating that the contention of the thread is directly related to banning gay people from conventions.

Quote
Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for

(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage

I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.

It's anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt, but most conservative religious people I've heard talk about this kind of issue don't have a problem with associating with gay people.
What about gay conservatives? Or liberals who hate gays? I think being gay is not relevant, and I will criticize oggsmash in that bringing up the gay wedding cake topic has apparently opened the door to you attempting to take us on an irrelevant tangent.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 06:57:03 PM by Ratman_tf »
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Pat

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2021, 06:58:43 PM »
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
Why do you think that?

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2021, 07:00:15 PM »
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.

Depends on the sort and the principles. If the conservative christians are very by the book and can't even handle stuff like imaginary pantheons, then its unlikely they will be happy in the convention at all.
If the gay group demands that everything cater to their fetish and get upset when people disagree they will also be unlikely to be happy in the convention at all.

But if both sides have some decency to indulge some level of imagination and leave politics away, if for a while, then they can get along. Both sides can get along if they WANT to get along fundementally.

SJW principles is to NOT get along. Anything short of utopian dominance of their ideals, and their ideals alone, is blasthemous.
Can christians have the same issue? Yes. But they have lost a ton of influence and its the SJWs leading the charge in almost every institution.

Ratman_tf

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2021, 07:08:50 PM »
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.

Depends on the sort and the principles. If the conservative christians are very by the book and can't even handle stuff like imaginary pantheons, then its unlikely they will be happy in the convention at all.
If the gay group demands that everything cater to their fetish and get upset when people disagree they will also be unlikely to be happy in the convention at all.

But if both sides have some decency to indulge some level of imagination and leave politics away, if for a while, then they can get along. Both sides can get along if they WANT to get along fundementally.

SJW principles is to NOT get along. Anything short of utopian dominance of their ideals, and their ideals alone, is blasthemous.
Can christians have the same issue? Yes. But they have lost a ton of influence and its the SJWs leading the charge in almost every institution.

At this point in the conversation, I think my concern is activism. I'd be equally put off if somebody came in and wanted to make the convetnion about LGBTQ issues, or how demons in D&D make the game satanic, or a guy with a boot on his head wanted to use the convention to talk about libertarian values.

Some minor creep is inevitable when a GM puts their spin on an adventure about gay dragons. (I'd probably just laugh at that idea) but I can just walk away from a game I think is getting preachy. But when the convention itself fosters an environment of evangelizing about out of game topics, that's when I get irate.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

GeekyBugle

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2021, 07:13:48 PM »
Before selling any ticket/badge for the con, you have the prospect buyer fill out a form/questionaire:

Sex?
Can you get along with those that think different than you?
Is ANTIFA a terrorist organization? Yes or no.
Please tell us something about you.

Maybe the last question alone could be enough, after all the wokeraty will put their pronouns.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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Dapig

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2021, 07:18:34 PM »
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.

Depends on the sort and the principles. If the conservative christians are very by the book and can't even handle stuff like imaginary pantheons, then its unlikely they will be happy in the convention at all.
If the gay group demands that everything cater to their fetish and get upset when people disagree they will also be unlikely to be happy in the convention at all.

But if both sides have some decency to indulge some level of imagination and leave politics away, if for a while, then they can get along. Both sides can get along if they WANT to get along fundementally.

SJW principles is to NOT get along. Anything short of utopian dominance of their ideals, and their ideals alone, is blasthemous.
Can christians have the same issue? Yes. But they have lost a ton of influence and its the SJWs leading the charge in almost every institution.

At this point in the conversation, I think my concern is activism. I'd be equally put off if somebody came in and wanted to make the convetnion about LGBTQ issues, or how demons in D&D make the game satanic, or a guy with a boot on his head wanted to use the convention to talk about libertarian values.

Some minor creep is inevitable when a GM puts their spin on an adventure about gay dragons. (I'd probably just laugh at that idea) but I can just walk away from a game I think is getting preachy. But when the convention itself fosters an environment of evangelizing about out of game topics, that's when I get irate.

You got it.

When I help people in my job, I help them.  That I am a straight Ostensibly Christian dude is immaterial.  I help everyone.

When I play D&D or whatever, I play.  I don’t tell others how to feel, correct them suppress them or whatever.

In some magical world, people come together for common purpose and leave each other alone otherwise.

If I am on a diet, I watch what I eat; I don’t police everyone else.  My buddy can eat a 3000 calorie meal.  As long as he does not hassle me about my salad, we can have dinner together.  That’s the same with rpg or other games for me.  Shut up an play.  It’s the reason we are hanging out.

Once he starts bitching me out for eating meat, having a beer with my dinner or whatever, we got a problem.  We have lost sanity when we think it is our responsibility to live others lives.  A convention. Does not have to be so dissimilar.  Leave me alone.  I am playing colonialist (if you say so) classic D&D and you are playing thirsty sword plungers.  Me joining the sword swallowers and complaining I don’t like that is absurd.

Sjw gotta understand my character is developing a stronghold.  Don’t participate if you don’t like it.  Other events can cater to your preferences
AD&D 1e, D&D 5e

GeekyBugle

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2021, 07:29:39 PM »
GCNCoC (Gaming Conventions No Code Of Conduct)

Gaming Conventions No Code Of Conduct is a groundbreaking new idea. Designed to help you find communities and conventions that will not get stuck endlessly debating how atendees should behave in their events, only to be found to never be fully resolved to anyone's liking.

What if... we all agreed?

1.    We are all adults. Capable of having adult discussions.
2.    We don't accept politics at the table/event/convention/store, we don't care if you're liberal or conservative, black or white, straight or gay, or
       anything in between! In fact, we won't bring it up, or ask. We simply do not care.
3.    Nothing else matters!
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2021, 10:37:12 PM »
    Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace;  likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.

Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.

To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be:  A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?

Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.

Nobody was talking about fucking wedding cakes either, but somehow you didn't object to oggsmash bringing those up to score points.

Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for

(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage

I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.


That just proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about. YOU and people like you are the only ones who care about someone's sexuality at the game table. I'm about as Christian as you can get and not be a Preacher and I have people of all sexualities at my tables. I'm playing D&D, I care how fun you are to game with and don't give a rats ass about anything else. Now I have friends and table top mats I play with and not one of them has ever seemed unhappy about it. How is some stranger im just sitting down to play D&D with supposed to know im a Christian anyway? Or how do I know their sexuality?? This is all hogwash used to disguise your own crazy bias!

 

jeff37923

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2021, 11:32:27 PM »
    Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace;  likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.

Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.

To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be:  A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?

Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.

Nobody was talking about fucking wedding cakes either, but somehow you didn't object to oggsmash bringing those up to score points.

Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for

(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage

I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.


That just proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about. YOU and people like you are the only ones who care about someone's sexuality at the game table. I'm about as Christian as you can get and not be a Preacher and I have people of all sexualities at my tables. I'm playing D&D, I care how fun you are to game with and don't give a rats ass about anything else. Now I have friends and table top mats I play with and not one of them has ever seemed unhappy about it. How is some stranger im just sitting down to play D&D with supposed to know im a Christian anyway? Or how do I know their sexuality?? This is all hogwash used to disguise your own crazy bias!

Gameogre gets it.

Merrill

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2021, 09:32:51 AM »
WOTC D&D is CCP-CRT-D&D


S'mon

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2021, 11:04:15 AM »
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage

I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention.

They could all shut up about gay marriage stuff and play D&D together? IME in real life that is what actually happens!!! :-O

Chris24601

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Re: RE: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2021, 12:23:13 PM »
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage

I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention.

They could all shut up about gay marriage stuff and play D&D together? IME in real life that is what actually happens!!! :-O
Pretty much. I count half-a-dozen gays among my various game groups with no problems despite my being well known among my friends as “Captain Catholic” because I actually live my faith, but part of that Faith is “always preach the Gospel; if necessary use words”, “Love the Sinner; Hate the Sin” and “we’re ALL sinners so don’t go picking at someone else’s splinters until you’ve pulled the beam from your own eye.”

Frankly, any good Christian knows they’ll never convert anyone if they’re getting in other people’s faces (in my experience those who do are more often self-righteous rather righteous), but I’ve gotten five members of my gaming circle and their families to join my Church expressly by NOT pushing so they felt safe coming to me when they did have questions.

As long as they’re not asking me to bow in obeisance to their lifestyle and don’t raise a stink about me silently praying before I eat or not eating meat on Fridays or not being free to game on Sunday mornings and Holy Days of Obligation, I’ll game with anyone and I suspect the vast majority of Christians will too.