It doesn't help that certain AAA developers and publishers have added 'loot crate' microtransactions into their video games.

Before you say 'that's different!', yes, it is different. But look at it from the perspective of a none-too-bright politician.

Loot crates are definitely gambling and must be regulated. Pitting the willpower of your 6yo child/brother/cousin against the psychological manipulations of multi-billion dollar global corporations is not at all appropriate. Moreover, it's just made games a hell of a lot more shitty.

Microtransactions are a shady business practice that deserve a lot more scrutiny. It gets wrapped up in the challenge of "Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.

Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
Loot crates are definitely gambling and must be regulated. Pitting the willpower of your 6yo child/brother/cousin against the psychological manipulations of multi-billion dollar global corporations is not at all appropriate. Moreover, it's just made games a hell of a lot more shitty.

Microtransactions are a shady business practice that deserve a lot more scrutiny. It gets wrapped up in the challenge of "Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.

I watched my ex no shit drop entire paychecks on loot crates before. It was depressing, theres a reason shes my ex lol

Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.

Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?

Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 09:51:25 AM

Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.

Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?

It can be argued that unless it is open source, you have not owned any software within your lifetime.  Even in the very early days, you bought a license to use the software.

Quote from: zircher on July 28, 2021, 02:02:00 PM

Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 09:51:25 AM

Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.

Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?

It can be argued that unless it is open source, you have not owned any software within your lifetime.  Even in the very early days, you bought a license to use the software.

Sure. But once you bought the software, you got a copy on physical media that you could install and use without a subscription. That has slowly changed over the years, and not necessarily for the better.
The tendency to subscript-ify software does not make me happy as a customer. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Or are they just charging you a monthly fee and hope you forget to cancel when you stop using the software?

Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 09:51:25 AM

Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.

Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?

It's a complex topic and there's very good technical reasons for wanting certain things both as a user and as a corporation. But the Software-as-a-Service model generally is one in which you as a user have no rights whatsoever. I think in a sane society we would take some serious scrutiny to this to ensure that, at a bare minimum, purchasing a product would enable you access to that product locally in a way that didn't depend on external services.

If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.

Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM

Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 09:51:25 AM

Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.

Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?

It's a complex topic and there's very good technical reasons for wanting certain things both as a user and as a corporation. But the Software-as-a-Service model generally is one in which you as a user have no rights whatsoever. I think in a sane society we would take some serious scrutiny to this to ensure that, at a bare minimum, purchasing a product would enable you access to that product locally in a way that didn't depend on external services.

And that a corporation couldn't just ban you from using it because you're a meanie that hurts people's feelings.

But the real solution IS open source.

Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.

Movies Anywhere (MA) might be a good model. To adapt it to the RPG world, a bunch of the individual companies that have PDF stores would get together and create a service, let's call it RPGs Anywhere (RA). A gamer could then buy Tome of Horrors at Frog God Games, and Lords of Olympus at Precis Intermedia, and link both those accounts to RA. Both products would show up in the gamer's RA library, and RA tells both sites that the gamer owns both these games. If the products are available at both stores, that means they appear in the gamer's library on both sites, and can be downloaded from either. Making the authorization process a one-time thing and persistent, so doesn't require constant verification and can't be revoked on a whim, gives the gamer a sense of ownership and security. Because even if FGG goes belly up, or just stops running a webstore and a PDF download service, the gamer can still download Tome of Horrors from Precis Intermedia. It basically creates a persistent and distributed library, and the more retailers who sign up the stronger it becomes. It might ultimately become a valid alternative to OneBookShelf.

Quote from: Pat on July 28, 2021, 04:15:47 PM

Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.

Movies Anywhere (MA) might be a good model. To adapt it to the RPG world, a bunch of the individual companies that have PDF stores would get together and create a service, let's call it RPGs Anywhere (RA). A gamer could then buy Tome of Horrors at Frog God Games, and Lords of Olympus at Precis Intermedia, and link both those accounts to RA. Both products would show up in the gamer's RA library, and RA tells both sites that the gamer owns both these games. If the products are available at both stores, that means they appear in the gamer's library on both sites, and can be downloaded from either. Making the authorization process a one-time thing and persistent, so doesn't require constant verification and can't be revoked on a whim, gives the gamer a sense of ownership and security. Because even if FGG goes belly up, or just stops running a webstore and a PDF download service, the gamer can still download Tome of Horrors from Precis Intermedia. It basically creates a persistent and distributed library, and the more retailers who sign up the stronger it becomes. It might ultimately become a valid alternative to OneBookShelf.

What you're describing is something I mentioned a while back: We need an alternative for TTRPG but it needs to be distributed in such a way that no publisher can be deplataformed.

Only problem I see is that if the writer of Myfarog jumps in you might be forced to host his content. I see no easy solution other than allowing individual publishers to opt out from hosting content from such publishers they don't want to help/promote.

And this creates another problem, lets say the SJWs (since they seem to have more numbers than the myfarog types) create a bunch of accounts, enough as to be more than half the stores...

They could with time corner the store and efectively ban the wrongthinkers.

Maybe not have the publisher mirror shit from anyone but to help hosting the store? And making it work with blockchain.

Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
But the Software-as-a-Service model generally is one in which you as a user have no rights whatsoever. I think in a sane society we would take some serious scrutiny to this to ensure that, at a bare minimum, purchasing a product would enable you access to that product locally in a way that didn't depend on external services.

Sure, but I noticed you switched mid-paragraph from talking about software as a service, and owning a product. Your point seems to be that subscription services eschew rights. I'm not seeing it: the user can always opt to end their subscription.

I do agree that purchasing a product is better than subscribing to a service, for the reasons you mention. Of course, the service model has its own advantages, namely convenience and offloading of responsibility. I also agree with Zircher though: in most cases "purchasing a product" doesn't really ensure ownership of that product in a meaningful way, when it comes to digital assets.

Open-source is one way, as you point out. I think NFTs and dAPPs have tremendous potential as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere on the board, distributed, blockchain-backed software not only protects the user's usage rights, it also provides a distribution model that is immune to censorship.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:52:57 PM
But the real solution IS open source.

Agree, and generally speaking I don't think it's possible to have a free society with this much technology around unless you can actually look at its software and validate it's doing what it's doing and not other malicious activities.

Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 05:41:52 PM
Sure, but I noticed you switched mid-paragraph from talking about software as a service, and owning a product. Your point seems to be that subscription services eschew rights. I'm not seeing it: the user can always opt to end their subscription.

I do agree that purchasing a product is better than subscribing to a service, for the reasons you mention. Of course, the service model has its own advantages, namely convenience and offloading of responsibility. I also agree with Zircher though: in most cases "purchasing a product" doesn't really ensure ownership of that product in a meaningful way, when it comes to digital assets.

That's because I don't agree with the framing of SAAS. Almost any type of transaction can be framed as a "Service." Buying into that framing allows big corporations to sell you a bunch of services, but -- this might sound familiar -- You'll own nothing.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 04:28:11 PM

Quote from: Pat on July 28, 2021, 04:15:47 PM

Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.

Movies Anywhere (MA) might be a good model. To adapt it to the RPG world, a bunch of the individual companies that have PDF stores would get together and create a service, let's call it RPGs Anywhere (RA). A gamer could then buy Tome of Horrors at Frog God Games, and Lords of Olympus at Precis Intermedia, and link both those accounts to RA. Both products would show up in the gamer's RA library, and RA tells both sites that the gamer owns both these games. If the products are available at both stores, that means they appear in the gamer's library on both sites, and can be downloaded from either. Making the authorization process a one-time thing and persistent, so doesn't require constant verification and can't be revoked on a whim, gives the gamer a sense of ownership and security. Because even if FGG goes belly up, or just stops running a webstore and a PDF download service, the gamer can still download Tome of Horrors from Precis Intermedia. It basically creates a persistent and distributed library, and the more retailers who sign up the stronger it becomes. It might ultimately become a valid alternative to OneBookShelf.

What you're describing is something I mentioned a while back: We need an alternative for TTRPG but it needs to be distributed in such a way that no publisher can be deplataformed.

Only problem I see is that if the writer of Myfarog jumps in you might be forced to host his content. I see no easy solution other than allowing individual publishers to opt out from hosting content from such publishers they don't want to help/promote.

And this creates another problem, lets say the SJWs (since they seem to have more numbers than the myfarog types) create a bunch of accounts, enough as to be more than half the stores...

They could with time corner the store and efectively ban the wrongthinkers.

Maybe not have the publisher mirror shit from anyone but to help hosting the store? And making it work with blockchain.

Yes, we've talked about it before.

But that's not a really a problem with Movie Anywhere. While most movies seem to be available at most retailers, that not a requirement and is not always the case. There are some Movies Anywhere movies that are available on Apple, but which aren't currently available at other retailers, like Vudu. That just means you can't watch them on Vudu. But on the other hand, if Vudu does start carrying the movie in the future, MA will let Vudu know you own the movie, and you'll be able to watch it on both platforms, even if you bought it over at Apple before it was available on Vudu.

The number of retailers who participate in the MA program is also limited. There are only about a dozen, and they're big. It's not designed for every home video publisher, but for big end retailers like Vudu (formerly Walmart), Google Play Video, Amazon Prime, Apple iTunes, and a couple others. The RPG equivalent would be sites like Warehouse 23, Paizo, and so on. So there would be a filter in place to prevent things like MyFarog, but still at least some variety. A more completely decentralized model that can't be censored at all would be possible, but would require significant changes.

Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 06:15:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:52:57 PM
But the real solution IS open source.

Agree, and generally speaking I don't think it's possible to have a free society with this much technology around unless you can actually look at its software and validate it's doing what it's doing and not other malicious activities.

Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 05:41:52 PM
Sure, but I noticed you switched mid-paragraph from talking about software as a service, and owning a product. Your point seems to be that subscription services eschew rights. I'm not seeing it: the user can always opt to end their subscription.

I do agree that purchasing a product is better than subscribing to a service, for the reasons you mention. Of course, the service model has its own advantages, namely convenience and offloading of responsibility. I also agree with Zircher though: in most cases "purchasing a product" doesn't really ensure ownership of that product in a meaningful way, when it comes to digital assets.

That's because I don't agree with the framing of SAAS. Almost any type of transaction can be framed as a "Service." Buying into that framing allows big corporations to sell you a bunch of services, but -- this might sound familiar -- You'll own nothing.

IMHO not only software, hardware needs to be open too. How do you know the hardware doesn't have any backdoors?

As for RPGs look at the ones with most independent supplements, they all have one thing in common, some sort of license that allows you, for no cost to create the content.

True most licenses are kinda BS since the owner of the game can revoke your right to use it at any time because they feel like it, but still.

Quote from: Pat on July 28, 2021, 06:22:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 04:28:11 PM

Quote from: Pat on July 28, 2021, 04:15:47 PM

Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.

Movies Anywhere (MA) might be a good model. To adapt it to the RPG world, a bunch of the individual companies that have PDF stores would get together and create a service, let's call it RPGs Anywhere (RA). A gamer could then buy Tome of Horrors at Frog God Games, and Lords of Olympus at Precis Intermedia, and link both those accounts to RA. Both products would show up in the gamer's RA library, and RA tells both sites that the gamer owns both these games. If the products are available at both stores, that means they appear in the gamer's library on both sites, and can be downloaded from either. Making the authorization process a one-time thing and persistent, so doesn't require constant verification and can't be revoked on a whim, gives the gamer a sense of ownership and security. Because even if FGG goes belly up, or just stops running a webstore and a PDF download service, the gamer can still download Tome of Horrors from Precis Intermedia. It basically creates a persistent and distributed library, and the more retailers who sign up the stronger it becomes. It might ultimately become a valid alternative to OneBookShelf.

What you're describing is something I mentioned a while back: We need an alternative for TTRPG but it needs to be distributed in such a way that no publisher can be deplataformed.

Only problem I see is that if the writer of Myfarog jumps in you might be forced to host his content. I see no easy solution other than allowing individual publishers to opt out from hosting content from such publishers they don't want to help/promote.

And this creates another problem, lets say the SJWs (since they seem to have more numbers than the myfarog types) create a bunch of accounts, enough as to be more than half the stores...

They could with time corner the store and efectively ban the wrongthinkers.

Maybe not have the publisher mirror shit from anyone but to help hosting the store? And making it work with blockchain.

Yes, we've talked about it before.

But that's not a really a problem with Movie Anywhere. While most movies seem to be available at most retailers, that not a requirement and is not always the case. There are some Movies Anywhere movies that are available on Apple, but which aren't currently available at other retailers, like Vudu. That just means you can't watch them on Vudu. But on the other hand, if Vudu does start carrying the movie in the future, MA will let Vudu know you own the movie, and you'll be able to watch it on both platforms, even if you bought it over at Apple before it was available on Vudu.

The number of retailers who participate in the MA program is also limited. There are only about a dozen, and they're big. It's not designed for every home video publisher, but for big end retailers like Vudu (formerly Walmart), Google Play Video, Amazon Prime, Apple iTunes, and a couple others. The RPG equivalent would be sites like Warehouse 23, Paizo, and so on. So there would be a filter in place to prevent things like MyFarog, but still at least some variety. A more completely decentralized model that can't be censored at all would be possible, but would require significant changes.

Thing is, the way things are going it will be a long wait till the trend reverses and the current puritans loose their grip on society if ever, and we all know that a new crop of puritans will arise to fill the vacum.

So what we need is a trully decentralized solution that can't be censored.