So, as my sig indicates I'm playing in an RC D&D game currently, characters are houseruled for setting (basically it's a magocracy and all the main PCs bar mine are magi, who are heavily beefed up in this setting, I mostly play a cleric who was originally intended as a support character but just turned out to be really fun).
Two sessions back we're short on players, so me and one other take our magi (I mostly play the cleric, but occasionally play a mage instead) and a small team and go explore a ruined town near our lands. We encounter undead, christ knows what kind (I own the book, but looking them up would spoil the fun IMO), and only luck, bad GM dicerolling and a protection from evil spell prevent level drain.
We go back in, and get our asses handed to us. We wreak some hefty harm back, it's no clear victory for the forces of death, but we are taking heavy wounds and getting increasingly pressed and so retreat. The fact my mage did not have protection from evil weighed heavily, one hit and he's down 10,000+ xp.
So, we return to our home base, heal up, recoup, get the cleric. Last Monday we go back with the cleric, a different mage (a third player was back) and the other original mage, plus a small body of henchmen and we end up fighting a room to room battle in some undead barracks with evidence that the terrible vampire-lich-whateverthefuck death knight we finally kill after two sorties into town probably was just another lieutenant and not the commander of the evil horde.
So, what do we learn from this?
Retreat and regroup.
Head in, achieve your objectives, head back out. Don't get sucked in to fights you aren't sure to win.
Fear level drain. Seriously, as players we fear the things we're fighting, our sorties into town are timed by reference to how long our protection from evils last and we make damn sure we can't be pinned down until that expires.
Protection from evil doesn't protect you from the death knight whacking you with a bloody great sword, doing d12 damage per hit.
RC D&D is scary. You really feel you have your character's life on the line, you respect the monsters, you fight hard and you don't assume that you can win - the town may be controlled by something we just can't defeat yet.
Not sure where all this takes me, but it seemed vaguely relevant to some current conversations. It's old school I guess, we're not guaranteed victory, we're not guaranteed survival even, we fight and if we don't fight smart we take losses.
Oh, how did we realise we hadn't got the big bad? Stupidly, after last week we camped outside the ruined town to rest up, the session ended with the undead attacking us that same night in a cliffhanger to next week. Protection from evils now all elapsed of course, and all spells cast...
RC D&D, you learn to respect your foes. You learn to retreat. You learn not to assume that you're going to be guaranteed a heroic victory no matter what dumbass things you do.
Great game. I recommend it.
RC??
Awesome! That sounds like a fun game. :)
I agree that Level Drain is a great way to add "Fear" to the game -- because it's something the players themselves actually "fear".
RC = Rules Compendium
Rules Compendium (RC) is the same game as the Mentzer series of Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters and Immortals (BECMI) D&D. It's virtually the same game as the Moldvay + Cook/Marsh series of Basic and Expert (B/X) D&D. They're all more or less interchangeable, with only very slight differences in rules between them, and commonly referred to as "Classic" D&D.
It's good to see it getting a lot more interest lately. :)
For the life of me, I just couldn't describe the RC and yes, it is nice to see it getting dusted off and enjoyed like it should.
Quote from: Stuart;221358Awesome! That sounds like a fun game. :)
I agree that Level Drain is a great way to add "Fear" to the game -- because it's something the players themselves actually "fear".
When I played D&D as a kid we always houseruled away level drain, it wasn't until a few months ago when I saw I think Old Geezer explain the thinking behind it (it makes the players fear the undead the way their characters should) that it clicked for me.
I mean, I'm not GM so whether it had clicked for me or not we'd still be facing it, but at least now I can say that Old Geezer was spot on with this one - level drain makes you rp a frightened character, because you are a frightened player.
Quote from: Balbinus;221370I mean, I'm not GM so whether it had clicked for me or not we'd still be facing it, but at least now I can say that Old Geezer was spot on with this one - level drain makes you rp a frightened character, because you are a frightened player.
Yeah, that was my GM's argument for punching us in the face every time we got hit in-game. ;)
Quote from: Stuart;221358Awesome! That sounds like a fun game. :)
I agree that Level Drain is a great way to add "Fear" to the game -- because it's something the players themselves actually "fear".
While I hate the metagame aspect of it and I'm glad I don't have to deal with it anymore, I can definitely agree it's fear inspiring :) I also agree, it sounds like a very fun game.
Quote from: Engine;221372Yeah, that was my GM's argument for punching us in the face every time we got hit in-game. ;)
There's a chap on rpg.net, I've had a drink with him once and believe him on this, who once tried out with a new group and when his character got injured the GM pulled out a paintgun from under the table and shot him in the chest at point blank range.
Hurt like hell I understand, and ruined the new white shirt he was wearing by chance that day. The GM explained it let the player understand the pain the character was experiencing.
He's a nice chap this chap, and luckily for the GM in question not a fellow prone to fist based conflict resolution mechanics, as if anything deserved a sound kicking that piece of asshattery did. I believe, however, that he didn't play further with that group.
Quote from: Sigmund;221374While I hate the metagame aspect of it and I'm glad I don't have to deal with it anymore, I can definitely agree it's fear inspiring :) I also agree, it sounds like a very fun game.
I can't speak so much to current versions, but D&D works best when you accept a level of abstraction and just justify it to yourself however works. Overthinking the mechanics rarely leads to happiness.
If, as at times I've found myself in the past, you can't get with that abstraction or justify it to yourself then all I can say is that's why god made Runequest.
So, I figure we're bigass heros who can take wounds that would down a normal man, hence hit points, and I reckon that undead drain your life force so leaving you weakened and less capable. It's a fudge, but provided you don't poke it too hard, it's a workable fudge.
If you have to poke, again, I refer you to the ever excellent Runequest :-)
Quote from: Balbinus;221376There's a chap on rpg.net, I've had a drink with him once and believe him on this, who once tried out with a new group and when his character got injured the GM pulled out a paintgun from under the table and shot him in the chest at point blank range.
Hurt like hell I understand, and ruined the new white shirt he was wearing by chance that day. The GM explained it let the player understand the pain the character was experiencing.
He's a nice chap this chap, and luckily for the GM in question not a fellow prone to fist based conflict resolution mechanics, as if anything deserved a sound kicking that piece of asshattery did. I believe, however, that he didn't play further with that group.
Holy shit. I'da yanked the paintgun away from the jerk and beat him with it. Criminy.
Quote from: Sigmund;221378Holy shit. I'da yanked the paintgun away from the jerk and beat him with it. Criminy.
It does seem to me a high risk gambit with new players, it's worth mentioning it happened in Britain though, which at least minimises the risk of return fire.
I'd love to see that GM try that in Texas...
Quote from: Balbinus;221376Hurt like hell I understand, and ruined the new white shirt he was wearing by chance that day. The GM explained it let the player understand the pain the character was experiencing.
He's a nice chap this chap, and luckily for the GM in question not a fellow prone to fist based conflict resolution mechanics, as if anything deserved a sound kicking that piece of asshattery did. I believe, however, that he didn't play further with that group.
WTF :eek:
That'd be an instant game-ender right there. I would have lost my cool for sure.
Quote from: Balbinus;221379It does seem to me a high risk gambit with new players, it's worth mentioning it happened in Britain though, which at least minimises the risk of return fire.
I'd love to see that GM try that in Texas...
:rotfl:
Quote from: Balbinus;221377I can't speak so much to current versions, but D&D works best when you accept a level of abstraction and just justify it to yourself however works. Overthinking the mechanics rarely leads to happiness.
If, as at times I've found myself in the past, you can't get with that abstraction or justify it to yourself then all I can say is that's why god made Runequest.
So, I figure we're bigass heros who can take wounds that would down a normal man, hence hit points, and I reckon that undead drain your life force so leaving you weakened and less capable. It's a fudge, but provided you don't poke it too hard, it's a workable fudge.
If you have to poke, again, I refer you to the ever excellent Runequest :-)
Oh I gotcha. I hated it, but I dealt, cuz I love me some DnD. I just made sure that if I got delvled, I arranged to get everyone else delvled too so I wasn't lagging behind :D Yes, I suck.
Quote from: Sigmund;221384Oh I gotcha. I hated it, but I dealt, cuz I love me some DnD. I just made sure that if I got delvled, I arranged to get everyone else delvled too so I wasn't lagging behind :D Yes, I suck.
Hah. Send more cops... :D
'Tis true. Undead are bloody scary in early d&d.
It did get wearing in one campaign i took part in, in the late '80s. Every time we actually levelled up, we'd be lucky to keep it for more than a session or two before we lost it again. That was frustrating. I think my Fighter eventually managed to reach 5th level again - he got to 7th at one stage, then tangled with a vampire.
I don't recommend the 'undead hunter' type of campaign with RC or ad&d (as the above campaign was). But as occassional enemies, they are very cool.
Bah... undead aren't scary. It's the critters with insta-kill poison. Now that's scary.
Quote from: mhensley;221399Bah... undead aren't scary. It's the critters with insta-kill poison. Now that's scary.
Such things exist?
Bugger. I can see more use of Fly combined with Fireball coming up in future.
Quote from: Balbinus;221401Such things exist?
Bugger. I can see more use of Fly combined with Fireball coming up in future.
If you fail a saving throw against poison in most early versions of D&D, (earlier than D&D3) your character dies. Doesn't matter if it's a giant centipede with 2hp, or a Wyvern.
If a character is raised or resurrected without having first having been cured, the DM would often rule that he dies
again.
There are a few exceptions: some types of creatures are specifically detailed as having poison that only does damage on a failed save. I think this started around Monster Manual II.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;221409If you fail a saving throw against poison in most early versions of D&D, (earlier than D&D3) your character dies. Doesn't matter if it's a giant centipede with 2hp, or a Wyvern.
I'm pretty sure the poison from the Giant Centipede doesn't actually kill -- it makes you sick / incapacitated.
Edit: This is from Labyrinth Lord, and I'm sure it's the same as the original Moldvay Basic rules:
QuoteThese 1' long centipedes prefer dark, wet locations. Giant centipedes attack with a poisonous bite. No damage is inflicted by the bite, but anyone bitten is entitled to a saving
throw versus poison. Failure indicates that the victim is horribly sick for a period of 10 days, and can only move at 50% of normal movement. No other physical activity is possible.
Quote from: Stuart;221425I'm pretty sure the poison from the Giant Centipede doesn't actually kill -- it makes you sick / incapacitated.
We'll fireball them from orbit, it's the only way to make sure.
Some monsters (like the Giant Centipede) shouldn't attack player characters unless they do something like rummage through a pile of moldy old rags the things have built their nest in.
No normal animal (or animal-like-monster) under normal circumstances would attack a larger enemy / group of enemies...
Quote from: mhensley;221399Bah... undead aren't scary. It's the critters with insta-kill poison. Now that's scary.
Yea, a bit of back luck (lucky attack roll followed by poor save roll) ends a character. Neutralize poison is a spell to always have memorized once you get high enough.
Quote from: Nicephorus;221442Yea, a bit of back luck (lucky attack roll followed by poor save roll) ends a character. Neutralize poison is a spell to always have memorized once you get high enough.
My 14th level Magic User died from a single bite from a furry snake because the party Cleric failed to have Neutralise Poison memorised. I got raised, but we gave him grief over that and reminded him at every opportunity to memorise it...
Quote from: Stuart;221425I'm pretty sure the poison from the Giant Centipede doesn't actually kill -- it makes you sick / incapacitated.
Edit: This is from Labyrinth Lord, and I'm sure it's the same as the original Moldvay Basic rules:
I'm pretty sure you are wrong.
Quote from: Nicephorus;221442Yea, a bit of back luck (lucky attack roll followed by poor save roll) ends a character. Neutralize poison is a spell to always have memorized once you get high enough.
Yeah, I always stopped playing the Eye of the Beholder game on the level with all the spiders. Killed me every time.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;221477I'm pretty sure you are wrong.
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the text from Labyrinth Lord is a direct quote of the Moldvay edition entry for Giant Centipede. I was looking at it just last night (because I'm writing a Basic D&D adventure for WoAdWriMo (http://www.woadwrimo.org/)). I'll check when I get home tonight... but I'm sure you're wrong. :)
Quote from: Stuart;221487I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the text from Labyrinth Lord is a direct quote of the Moldvay edition entry for Giant Centipede. I was looking at it just last night (because I'm writing a Basic D&D adventure for WoAdWriMo (http://www.woadwrimo.org/)). I'll check when I get home tonight... but I'm sure you're wrong. :)
Well.. I know for sure it isnt like that in AD&D, and movement restricting effects seem extremely unlikely in Basic. This is exactly the kind of rule I would have wanted to write my own version of if I had an OGL'd version of the rules, so that's why I think it isn't the same way.
I guess I'll have to actually look at a book.
Don't forget the Tarantella (Giant Spider) -- instead of killing, it's bite makes you dance! :)
Some of the poisons are instantly lethal, but others take up to10 turns to take effect -- which could be enough time to get help / antidote.
Quote from: Stuart;221503Some of the poisons are instantly lethal, but others take up to10 turns to take effect -- which could be enough time to get help / antidote.
As a gm, I would be generous with allowing a second save on slow acting poisons if they sucked the poison out or had healing herbs or whatever as I'm not a big fan of save or die. AD&D 2e had specific rules under herbalism for that.
But every character should have a missile weapon or a way to attack from a distance to deal with nasty melee attacks with poison or draining.
Moldvay giant centipede's make you violently ill for 10 days if you fail your save. Then you get better.
Quote from: Nicephorus;221509As a gm, I would be generous with allowing a second save on slow acting poisons if they sucked the poison out or had healing herbs or whatever as I'm not a big fan of save or die. AD&D 2e had specific rules under herbalism for that.
Yes, that's a good idea -- anything that gets the players to have their characters act in a realistic way is a good rule in my opinion. :)
Yanno, I've never cared for older editions of D&D because I'm generally fanatical about character design choice, and pre-3e pretty much entirely lacks it in any sense I find meaningful.
Occasionally though, I do find myself craving a simpler D&D-ish sort of game, and I do have a copy of the RC at my disposal.
The only problem is, I just can't fucking get through it. A number of our favorite internet trolls liked to whine about 3e and how "complicated" it is, and hold up RC like some paragon of simplicity, but the truth of the matter is, that book is a fucking wall of rules bloat the likes of which I've not seen in some time.
I'm sure the game seems simple if you just started with the boxed sets as a lad and slowly worked your way from B to E to C and so on, but taken all at once it's just too fucking much. It feels like exactly what it is: 5 seperate, but linked, games, mashed together into one single megagame that's simply too much to take in outside the context of that programmed instruction path.
That's why I like the separate books. Just start with the Red Basic Book (Moldvay or Mentzer) and that's all you need! You don't need anything from the other books until your groups been playing for a while. 64 pages for a complete game. :)
Or download Labyrinth Lord. True, I haven't read straight through but as a Moldvay clone which only tries to incorporate the first two boxes, it ought to be a lot easier to digest.
I have the RC in front of me right now. If you fail the save vs. poison you become violently ill for 10 days, can only move at half speed and will not be able to perform any other physical action. Small creatures save or die.
Quote from: J Arcane;221526Yanno, I've never cared for older editions of D&D because I'm generally fanatical about character design choice, and pre-3e pretty much entirely lacks it in any sense I find meaningful.
Occasionally though, I do find myself craving a simpler D&D-ish sort of game, and I do have a copy of the RC at my disposal.
The only problem is, I just can't fucking get through it. A number of our favorite internet trolls liked to whine about 3e and how "complicated" it is, and hold up RC like some paragon of simplicity, but the truth of the matter is, that book is a fucking wall of rules bloat the likes of which I've not seen in some time.
I'm sure the game seems simple if you just started with the boxed sets as a lad and slowly worked your way from B to E to C and so on, but taken all at once it's just too fucking much. It feels like exactly what it is: 5 seperate, but linked, games, mashed together into one single megagame that's simply too much to take in outside the context of that programmed instruction path.
I don't think I worked up through the boxes, and to me RC seems piss easy to be honest. Chargen particularly is very quick and straightforward.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;221528Or download Labyrinth Lord. True, I haven't read straight through but as a Moldvay clone which only tries to incorporate the first two boxes, it ought to be a lot easier to digest.
It gives clerics spells at first level though, I prefer the original rule of having to wait until second.
Quote from: Balbinus;221537It gives clerics spells at first level though, I prefer the original rule of having to wait until second.
It also removes a number of "human" monsters from the list. A small thing, but a subtle shift in the tone of the game. To me anyway. :) I like the various humans on the list (Acolyte, Noble, Trader, Veteran etc).
Huh, don't have it here. Well, if that's an issue, there's Basic Fantasy--but it takes more liberties with the underlying algorithms from what I've heard.
Quote from: J Arcane;221526Occasionally though, I do find myself craving a simpler D&D-ish sort of game, and I do have a copy of the RC at my disposal.
The only problem is, I just can't fucking get through it. A number of our favorite internet trolls liked to whine about 3e and how "complicated" it is, and hold up RC like some paragon of simplicity, but the truth of the matter is, that book is a fucking wall of rules bloat the likes of which I've not seen in some time.
I love classic D&D, but I heartily agree with this sentiment. I really don't like much in the RC that isn't already in the Moldvay/Cook version of the rules.
The Skills system seems to be lauded by many even though it's pretty much the near-universally hated NWP system from 2nd Edition AD&D. The Weapon Mastery rules are an overcomplicated mess. The extra classes like Druid, Avenger and Mystic weren't really needed.
I did like the more detailed tables for determining the contents of a non-magical treasure hoard, the extra monsters, etc., but most of the extra stuff in the RC isn't needed.
Labyrinth Lord is much closer to Moldvay Basic than Basic Fantasy is. LL is a very good product, but since I already own B/X in print it doesn't replace those for me. ;)
Quote from: Nicephorus;221509But every character should have a missile weapon or a way to attack from a distance to deal with nasty melee attacks with poison or draining.
Sure, but minions seek to engage us in melee so making missile fire impractical, plus you need enchanted weapons or magic to hurt the level draining critters.
Our GM uses tactics, the monsters do not go gentle into that good night.
Quote from: Balbinus;221546Our GM uses tactics, the monsters do not go gentle into that good night.
The bastage! :)
Quote from: Stuart;221365Rules Compendium (RC) is the same game as the Mentzer series of Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters and Immortals (BECMI) D&D..."Classic" D&D.
Actually, it's
Rules Cyclopedia. (Sorry, I'm being anal.)
QuoteIt's good to see it getting a lot more interest lately. :)
Yeah, it is. :)
Quote from: Balbinus;221376There's a chap on rpg.net, I've had a drink with him once and believe him on this, who once tried out with a new group and when his character got injured the GM pulled out a paintgun from under the table and shot him in the chest at point blank range.
Hurt like hell I understand, and ruined the new white shirt he was wearing by chance that day. The GM explained it let the player understand the pain the character was experiencing.
He's a nice chap this chap, and luckily for the GM in question not a fellow prone to fist based conflict resolution mechanics, as if anything deserved a sound kicking that piece of asshattery did. I believe, however, that he didn't play further with that group.
Holy fucking shit...
I've dealt with some fuckwittery in my time gaming, but this would have caused me to lose my temper and throw a chair at the guy with the paintball gun. Your chap has far more patience than I do.
Quote from: KenHR;221542I love classic D&D, but I heartily agree with this sentiment. I really don't like much in the RC that isn't already in the Moldvay/Cook version of the rules...
I love the RC, including the optional rules. I don't use most of them, but I like that they're there. The great thing about the RC is that it has
everything that you need for a complete D&D campaign. It's easy to ignore the optional rules you don't want to use.
Of course, I also love the Moldvay/Cook D&D rules, mainly for aesthetic reasons (superior art, efficient and clear explanations, etc.). And I dig Labyrinth Lord as well (nice to have a complete version of Moldvay/Cook in a single 128 page book).