Quote from: HappyDaze on June 11, 2021, 02:15:50 PMWhich Ravenloft is the 3e version a part of? What about the 5e version? Are there three or four or more Ravenlofts, or is there only One True Ravenloft (with the rest being Soulless Worlds according to the OP)?

The Ravenloft product line in each edition is different enough from the others to be an alternate world version of some "Platonic ideal" Ravenloft.  Best thing to do is pick the edition you like and roll with it.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 11, 2021, 03:22:13 PM

Quote from: Pat on June 11, 2021, 02:29:35 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 11, 2021, 02:15:50 PM

Quote from: Pat on June 11, 2021, 01:27:24 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 11, 2021, 01:25:54 PM

Quote from: Pat on June 11, 2021, 01:23:56 PM
So yes, there are two different Ravenlofts.

Why only two?

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

Which Ravenloft is the 3e version a part of? What about the 5e version? Are there three or four or more Ravenlofts, or is there only One True Ravenloft (with the rest being Soulless Worlds according to the OP)?

That doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I said. (I was talking about the difference between the module, and the box set.) If you have an issue with what the OP said, you should probably talk to the OP.

You said there were two products that presented two Ravenlofts. I was asking if you felt the four (or more) products presented four (or more) Ravenlofts or if you felt that some of the newer ones presented something that was not Ravenloft. If you felt the latter, I'd go on to ask you where you see the difference between the first two products you mentioned and those you did not.

I was talking about the difference between the original module, which basically covered a minor variation on Castle Dracula and nothing more, and the expansion into a full fledged setting, which added the concept of the Dark Powers, and the many Darklords and their domains, then connected them all together with the Mists, made escape impossible, changed rules, and so on. They're completely different. And while the realm of Strahd does fit into domains of dread, it's not a natural outgrowth of the original module. As far as I know, all the other versions run with the basic assumptions of the box set, and none of them go back to the module alone, so your questions still seem bizarre.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 11, 2021, 01:17:50 PM

I will defend Masque of the Red Death. Definitely not for everyone. Definitely a tough sell for sure.

And one that seems to get a lot more love now than when I first got the boxed set (I don't remember that many people in my area being into it at all).

It was taking the idea of the dark powers and porting them into our world (that is at least how I read it).

1: I'd say Masque is in many ways far superior to Ravenloft (Domains of Dread).

2: It came out at an odd time and there was competition from TORG and its Orrorsh setting and WOD had a victorian setting as well. But did it better than TORG and WOD.

3: I think it resonates with players who also gravitate to Call of Cthulhu type settings. Those where the PCs are all too human and so very very vulnerable. Survival in Masque is a little easier though if the PCs live long enough.

4: It sis not port the dark powers to Earth. Masque had no such thing and instead there was the mysterious Red Death, a force of evil and corruption that made even casting magic a risky thing. Just reading certain tomes could cause someone to flip out and do who knows what. If I recall right it was nothing tangible in the normal sense. More akin to a worldwide curse or a semi-sentient curse.

Quote from: Omega on June 12, 2021, 06:05:46 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 11, 2021, 01:17:50 PM

I will defend Masque of the Red Death. Definitely not for everyone. Definitely a tough sell for sure.

And one that seems to get a lot more love now than when I first got the boxed set (I don't remember that many people in my area being into it at all).

It was taking the idea of the dark powers and porting them into our world (that is at least how I read it).

1: I'd say Masque is in many ways far superior to Ravenloft (Domains of Dread).

2: It came out at an odd time and there was competition from TORG and its Orrorsh setting and WOD had a victorian setting as well. But did it better than TORG and WOD.

3: I think it resonates with players who also gravitate to Call of Cthulhu type settings. Those where the PCs are all too human and so very very vulnerable. Survival in Masque is a little easier though if the PCs live long enough.

4: It sis not port the dark powers to Earth. Masque had no such thing and instead there was the mysterious Red Death, a force of evil and corruption that made even casting magic a risky thing. Just reading certain tomes could cause someone to flip out and do who knows what. If I recall right it was nothing tangible in the normal sense. More akin to a worldwide curse or a semi-sentient curse.

1: It has been a long time since I read that boxed set (and unfortunately I don't have it any longer). It definitely did some interesting things. And I think it is a solid setting. Personally I did prefer Ravenloft, but that is because the setting clicked with me. Gothic Earth was a cool setting (at least as they laid out in that boxed set)

2: I don't know, I liked Orrorsh as well. I think Masque of the Red Death had the advantage of being a global setting, whereas Orrorsh was a much more limited area. But it was pretty cool. I never ran it though, only ran Masque of the Red Death, so I can't comment on the GM side for Orrorsh.

3: I think that is definitely true

4: I realize it isn't literally called the dark powers. But my memory is the Red Death was extremely similar (not identical, just similar enough that I tended to think of it as the dark powers invading earth in some way). It has been ages though since I've read the boxed set

Genuine gothic horror just doesn't appeal to people anymore.

Although you can certainly argue how well it implemented, the initial appeal of the Demiplane of Dread is that it was essentially about byronic heroes/gothic villains trapped in their own personal hells with a bunch of other innocent people dragged along for the ride (who may or may not be shades in purgatory anyway). The PCs were interlopers and risked becoming exactly those sorts of byronic/gothic tragedies.

It doesn't fit with the surreal Wonderland-esque freakshow that modern D&D has become. That might be appropriate for Planescape, but not a genre where deception and xenophobia are vital.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 13, 2021, 09:04:03 AM
Genuine gothic horror just doesn't appeal to people anymore.

Although you can certainly argue how well it implemented, the initial appeal of the Demiplane of Dread is that it was essentially about byronic heroes/gothic villains trapped in their own personal hells with a bunch of other innocent people dragged along for the ride (who may or may not be shades in purgatory anyway). The PCs were interlopers and risked becoming exactly those sorts of byronic/gothic tragedies.

That's an excellent summary of how Ravenloft is presented. The problem is, it's built on the D&D's chassis, so it inevitably becomes a game of D&D with a few gothic tropes. The exploration of personal horror and temptation isn't really suited to a group game with levels and an endless need for new monsters.

IMO, Ravenloft works best when it's D&D nature is central, and the gothic elements are used as an accent. The original module isn't a bad example. While it brings in a doomed villain and a backstory, it doesn't forget that the villain is there for the PCs to kill, or the dungeon full of monsters and loot.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 13, 2021, 09:04:03 AM
Genuine gothic horror just doesn't appeal to people anymore.

Although you can certainly argue how well it implemented, the initial appeal of the Demiplane of Dread is that it was essentially about byronic heroes/gothic villains trapped in their own personal hells with a bunch of other innocent people dragged along for the ride (who may or may not be shades in purgatory anyway). The PCs were interlopers and risked becoming exactly those sorts of byronic/gothic tragedies.

It doesn't fit with the surreal Wonderland-esque freakshow that modern D&D has become. That might be appropriate for Planescape, but not a genre where deception and xenophobia are vital.

Greetings!

Very interesting and salient commentary, BoxCrayonTales! I agree. A campaign milieu that deeply embraces attitudes and common world views of deception and xenophobia is precisely interesting, fun, and distinctive--because so much of our own society--theoretically at least--applauds and expects the entire opposite, of everyone at all times. It is very sad and unfortunate that more and more people seem to also maniacally insist and demand that fantasy game campaigns must also conform absolutely to our own real-world cultural standards.

It really does testify to how deeply impoverished and uncultured so many people are today in regards to being truly creative, and educated in history, mythology, classic literature, and just the glories and joys of the imagination.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2021, 09:33:37 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 13, 2021, 09:04:03 AM
Genuine gothic horror just doesn't appeal to people anymore.

Although you can certainly argue how well it implemented, the initial appeal of the Demiplane of Dread is that it was essentially about byronic heroes/gothic villains trapped in their own personal hells with a bunch of other innocent people dragged along for the ride (who may or may not be shades in purgatory anyway). The PCs were interlopers and risked becoming exactly those sorts of byronic/gothic tragedies.

That's an excellent summary of how Ravenloft is presented. The problem is, it's built on the D&D's chassis, so it inevitably becomes a game of D&D with a few gothic tropes. The exploration of personal horror and temptation isn't really suited to a group game with levels and an endless need for new monsters.

IMO, Ravenloft works best when it's D&D nature is central, and the gothic elements are used as an accent. The original module isn't a bad example. While it brings in a doomed villain and a backstory, it doesn't forget that the villain is there for the PCs to kill, or the dungeon full of monsters and loot.

I loved the original module and the first sequel, and I think there is a sweet spot in between introspective personal horror and purely cosmetic horror trappings on standard D&D. When I've run the modules, it has always highlighted some personal plotlines of PCs more than my usual D&D games.

I think it's true that genuine gothic horror (as in the original horror novels of the 18th and 19th centuries) lacks appeal today - but it's also true that the "gothic villains trapped in their own personal hells" of 2E Ravenloft isn't genuine gothic horror. Dracula wasn't trapped in some other reality separate from the real world and being punished for his sins. He was a monster threatening modern London, and had to be destroyed.

The concepts of the demi-plane and mists were a modern invention that was imposed on gothic horror for D&D, and is unprecedented in any of the original genre. I think it was mostly invented as a way to mix some gothic elements into a more typical D&D game. While the original two modules were not railroaded, the demi-plane modules were heavily railroaded as a way to fit in gothic elements.

The question is, what does one see as the core of Ravenloft: given different roots including (1) the inspirational horror fiction, (2) the original Ravenloft modules, (3) the original Ravenloft demi-plane setting and modules. There's no right answer to that question, obviously. But it may color how people see a reboot of Ravenloft.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 12, 2021, 11:02:04 PM
4: I realize it isn't literally called the dark powers. But my memory is the Red Death was extremely similar (not identical, just similar enough that I tended to think of it as the dark powers invading earth in some way). It has been ages though since I've read the boxed set

Unless they changed it at some point the dark powers were more like jailers and wardens and the pervasive evil of the lands was the doing of the domain lords. Exactly what the dark powers really did I do not recall. Did they actually offer deals like in Curse of Strahd? or were these deals reall just domain ord offerings to tempt adventurers?

Quote from: Omega on June 13, 2021, 01:53:07 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 12, 2021, 11:02:04 PM
4: I realize it isn't literally called the dark powers. But my memory is the Red Death was extremely similar (not identical, just similar enough that I tended to think of it as the dark powers invading earth in some way). It has been ages though since I've read the boxed set

Unless they changed it at some point the dark powers were more like jailers and wardens and the pervasive evil of the lands was the doing of the domain lords. Exactly what the dark powers really did I do not recall. Did they actually offer deals like in Curse of Strahd? or were these deals reall just domain ord offerings to tempt adventurers?

The dark powers were a vague force in Ravenloft. They were deliberately left to be mysterious. I think they are based on Strahd's pact with Death in his background, but they kind of took that and elaborated it into a vague, god-like power (or powers) that responds to evil, corrupting people as they commit more evil acts, and rewarding evil beings who have strong force of will with a domain of their own. There is a whole procedure in the Ravenloft books called powers checks which is the mechanical representation of the dark powers influence on people. The dark powers also alter things like how magic works (though some of this is also just a product of Ravenloft being on the ethereal border. Strahd's background says he made a pact with death, and this pact was sealed with the murder of his brother and him driving Tatyana to suicide (it gets elaborated on in various sources but at this point I think there are probably conflicting concepts around it). But Strahd is the first domain lord, he is a somewhat unique case, and there is potential for different interpretations of his pact with death. In the game itself, as laid out in the black box and red box, the dark powers don't literally offer you a deal or anything. They just respond to certain acts of evil. So say you commit an emotionally charged murder, that might warrant a powers check. It is a percentile roll, usually between 1-2 percent but often up to 10% (and later versions had different probabilities and dealt with things called ultimate acts of evil that alter how it works a bit). But basically if the check fails you get a punishment and a reward. The reward is an enticement, often a kind of power or monstrous ability. The punishment is supposed to be your evil becoming more visible in some way: powers checks are a progressive change that lead you to become more of a monster  (the chapter on powers checks is called The Reshaping of Characters for this reason). You don't literally need to become a werewolf or vampire by the end of it, though you can, but the end state is you become an NPC and, a Domain Lord. The further you advance the more you lose control.

What I felt they were doing with red death was taking this baseline idea, being vague about it, but implying the dark powers had somehow invaded earth (where it would have manifested differently than in Ravenloft, which is a bunch of fabricated lands in the ethereal border surrounded by mists). I don't think that was a definitive explanation. I think they left the red death mysterious just like they left the dark powers mysterious (no one knows what the dark powers really are or why they are doing what they are doing). But I felt like they intended it so this could be a viable pet theory about the red death.

Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2021, 09:33:37 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 13, 2021, 09:04:03 AM
Genuine gothic horror just doesn't appeal to people anymore.

Although you can certainly argue how well it implemented, the initial appeal of the Demiplane of Dread is that it was essentially about byronic heroes/gothic villains trapped in their own personal hells with a bunch of other innocent people dragged along for the ride (who may or may not be shades in purgatory anyway). The PCs were interlopers and risked becoming exactly those sorts of byronic/gothic tragedies.

That's an excellent summary of how Ravenloft is presented. The problem is, it's built on the D&D's chassis, so it inevitably becomes a game of D&D with a few gothic tropes. The exploration of personal horror and temptation isn't really suited to a group game with levels and an endless need for new monsters.

IMO, Ravenloft works best when it's D&D nature is central, and the gothic elements are used as an accent. The original module isn't a bad example. While it brings in a doomed villain and a backstory, it doesn't forget that the villain is there for the PCs to kill, or the dungeon full of monsters and loot.

I always found Ravenloft worked fine for gothic and classic horror. Also we should probably have some kind of starting point for what Gothic Horror is here. Just going by wikipedia this is opening entry:

QuoteGothic fiction, sometimes called Gothic horror in the 20th century, is a genre of literature and film that covers horror, death and at times romance. It is said to derive from the English author Horace Walpole's 1764 novel The Castle of Otranto, later subtitled "A Gothic Story". Early contributors included Clara Reeve, Ann Radcliffe, William Thomas Beckford and Matthew Lewis. It tends to stress emotion and a pleasurable terror that expands the Romantic literature of the time. The common "pleasures" were the sublime, which indescribably "takes us beyond ourselves."[1] Such extreme Romanticism was popular throughout Europe, especially among English and German-language authors.[2] Its 19th-century success peaked with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and work by E. T. A. Hoffmann, Edgar Allan Poe and Charles Dickens, and in poetry with Samuel Taylor Coleridge. Also prominent was the later Dracula by Bram Stoker. The name Gothic spread from the Goths to mean "German".[3] It also draws in Gothic architecture of the European Middle Ages, where many of the stories occur. Twentieth-century contributors include Daphne du Maurier, Stephen King, Shirley Jackson, Anne Rice and Toni Morrison.

and this is the list of tropes included in the article:

Quote
Virginal maiden – young, beautiful, pure, innocent, kind, virtuous and sensitive – usually starts with a mysterious past and is later revealed as the daughter of an aristocratic or noble family.
Matilda in The Castle of Otranto is determined to give up Theodore, the love of her life, for her cousin's sake. Matilda always puts others before herself, and always believes the best in others.
Adeline in The Romance of the Forest encounters "her wicked Marquis, having secretly immured Number One (his first wife), [who] has now a new and beautiful wife, whose character, alas! does not bear inspection."[108] As the review states, the virginal maiden character is above inspection as her personality is flawless. Hers is a virtuous character whose piety and unflinching optimism cause all to fall in love with her.
Older, foolish woman
Hippolita in The Castle of Otranto is depicted as the obedient wife of her tyrant husband, who "would not only acquiesce with patience to divorce, but would obey, if it was his pleasure, in endeavouring to persuade Isabelle to give him her hand."[109] This shows how weak women are portrayed as completely submissive, and in Hippolita's case, even support polygamy at the expense of her own marriage.[110]
Madame LaMotte in The Romance of the Forest naively assumes that her husband is having an affair with Adeline. Instead of addressing the situation directly, she foolishly lets her ignorance turn into pettiness and mistreatment of Adeline.
Hero
Theodore in The Castle of Otranto is witty and successfully challenges the tyrant, saving the virginal maid without expectations.
Theodore in The Romance of the Forest saves Adeline multiple times, is virtuous, courageous and brave, and self-sacrificial.
Tyrant/villain/Predatory male
Manfred in The Castle of Otranto unjustly accuses Theodore of murdering Conrad. Theodore tries to pass the blame onto others, and lies about his motives for attempting to divorce his wife and marry his late son's fiancé.
The Marquis in The Romance of the Forest tries to seduce Adeline though he is already married, to rape Adeline blackmail Monsieur LaMotte.
Vathek, Ninth Caliph of the Abassides, who ascended to the throne at an early age, has pleasing and majestic figure, but when angry, his gaze become so terrible that "the wretch on whom it was fixed instantly fell backwards and sometimes expired". He is addicted to women and pleasures of the flesh, and so has ordered five palaces to be built: the five palaces of the senses. Although he is an eccentric man, learned in the ways of science, physics, and astrology, he loves his people. His main greed, however, is thirst for knowledge. He wants to know everything. This is what has led him on the road to damnation.[111]
Bandits/ruffians appear in several Gothic novels, including The Romance of the Forest, where they kidnap Adeline from her father.
Clergy are always weak, usually evil.
Father Jerome in The Castle of Otranto, though not evil, is certainly weak, as he gives up his son when he is born and leaves his lover.
Ambrosio in The Monk is evil and weak, stooping to the lowest levels of corruption, including rape and incest.
The Mother Superior in The Romance of the Forest, Adeline, flees from this convent because the sisters are not allowed to see sunlight. *Highly oppressive environment.
The setting
The plot is usually set in a castle, abbey, monastery or other, usually religious edifice. It is acknowledged that the building has secrets of its own. This gloomy and frightening scene is what the audience has already come to expect. The importance of the setting was noted in a London review of The Castle of Otranto, "He describes the country towards Otranto as desolate and bare, extensive downs covered with thyme, with occasionally the dwarf holly, the rosa marina, and lavender, stretch around like wild moorlands.... Mr. Williams describes the celebrated Castle of Otranto as 'an imposing object of considerable size... [which] has a dignified and chivalric air'.... A fitter scene for his romance he probably could not have chosen." Similarly, De Vore states, "The setting is greatly influential in Gothic novels. It not only evokes the atmosphere of horror and dread, but also portrays the deterioration of its world. The decaying, ruined scenery implies that at one time there was a thriving world. At one time the abbey, castle, or landscape was something treasured and appreciated. Now, all that lasts is the decaying shell of a once thriving dwelling."[112] So without the decrepit backdrop to initiate the events, the Gothic novel would not exist.
Elements found especially in American Gothic fiction include:

Night journeys are seen throughout Gothic literature. They can occur in almost any setting, but in American literature are more commonly seen in the wilderness, forest or other area devoid of people.
Evil characters are also seen in Gothic literature and especially American Gothic. Depending on the setting or the period from which the work comes, the evil characters may be Native Americans, trappers, gold miners, etc.
American Gothic novels also tend to deal with "madness" in one or more of the characters and carry that theme through the novel. In his novel Edgar Huntly or Memoirs of a Sleepwalker, Charles Brockden Brown introduces two characters who slowly become deranged as the novel progresses.
Miraculous survivals are elements within American Gothic literature in which a character or characters somehow manages to survive some feat that should have led to their demise.
In American Gothic novels it is also typical for one or more characters to have some sort of supernatural powers. In Brown's Edgar Huntly or Memoirs of a Sleepwalker, the main character, Huntly, is able to face and kill not one, but two panthers.
An element of fear is another feature of American Gothic literature, typically connected to the unknown and generally seen throughout the novel. This can also be connected to a feeling of despair that overcomes characters within the novel. This element can lead characters to commit heinous crimes. In the case of Brown's character Edgar Huntly, he experiences it when he contemplates eating himself, eats an uncooked panther, and drinks his own sweat. The element of fear in a female Gothic is commonly portrayed through terror and supernatural fears, while male Gothic uses horror and physical fear and gore to arouse fear in the reader.
Psychological overlay is an element connected with how characters in an American Gothic novel are affected by things like the night and their surroundings. An example would be if a character was in a maze-like area and a connection was made to the maze that their minds represented.

Not sure how accurate that is. I always just went by what I saw in the gothic stories I read and in the classic horror movies I watched. Obviously Ravenloft is a game, and is set in a fantasy world (though I think they captured a lot of the dreaminess and emotion of gothic horror in how they approached making a setting). The setting also came equipped with lots of tools for making the horror work better (including changing spells, and altering certain character class features, but also monster customization, making monsters more powerful, giving domain lords and the dark powers power). I never really had much trouble getting Ravenloft to be gothic horror. D&D might not be as lethal as some horror games, but as a consequence it has some truly powerful and strange monsters, and something like level drain can put the fear of god into players. Characters do get more powerful though, so that does change things (but those early levels can be very lethal: had a player taken out by a splinter in one of the book of crypts adventures)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 13, 2021, 09:04:03 AM
Genuine gothic horror just doesn't appeal to people anymore.

Although you can certainly argue how well it implemented, the initial appeal of the Demiplane of Dread is that it was essentially about byronic heroes/gothic villains trapped in their own personal hells with a bunch of other innocent people dragged along for the ride (who may or may not be shades in purgatory anyway). The PCs were interlopers and risked becoming exactly those sorts of byronic/gothic tragedies.

It doesn't fit with the surreal Wonderland-esque freakshow that modern D&D has become. That might be appropriate for Planescape, but not a genre where deception and xenophobia are vital.

I agree.

What D&D is turning Ravenloft into isn't going to do it any favors either. But I'd contend that D&D is at odds with all of its settings which is why they're bending over backwards to reframe many aspects of the setting and the game to fit their political interests over the traditional aspects of the settings and the larger game.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 13, 2021, 02:40:25 PM

Not sure how accurate that is. I always just went by what I saw in the gothic stories I read and in the classic horror movies I watched. Obviously Ravenloft is a game, and is set in a fantasy world (though I think they captured a lot of the dreaminess and emotion of gothic horror in how they approached making a setting). The setting also came equipped with lots of tools for making the horror work better (including changing spells, and altering certain character class features, but also monster customization, making monsters more powerful, giving domain lords and the dark powers power). I never really had much trouble getting Ravenloft to be gothic horror. D&D might not be as lethal as some horror games, but as a consequence it has some truly powerful and strange monsters, and something like level drain can put the fear of god into players. Characters do get more powerful though, so that does change things (but those early levels can be very lethal: had a player taken out by a splinter in one of the book of crypts adventures)

Gothic horror isn't about a band of characters who go from location to location, slaughtering hordes of monsters along the way. It's about personal horror and inner conflicts. The characters in such stories typically come to tragic ends, or suffer dramatic transformations. These two structures are fundamentally at odds.

That's why I say that Ravenloft is D&D with some of the trappings of gothic horror, because it largely misses the heart of gothic stories. The goal is to use the superficial trappings, like haunted castles, stormy weather, and strange accents, in copious amounts to help get the players into the mood. Then use NPCs to evoke the more personal elements, like transformations, mysteries, romance, innocence vs. depravity, and tragedy. But the PCs and their players will be at best one removed, because even the player facing elements like corruption by the Dark Powers, will take place over the course of a campaign rather than a single story (adventure).

I find it works best to recognize that Ravenloft is, at heart, D&D. Don't try to replicate stories of gothic horror, because it's the wrong medium. Instead, take D&D adventure structures, and wrap them in gothic trappings.

Quote from: Pat on June 14, 2021, 12:42:17 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 13, 2021, 02:40:25 PM

Not sure how accurate that is. I always just went by what I saw in the gothic stories I read and in the classic horror movies I watched. Obviously Ravenloft is a game, and is set in a fantasy world (though I think they captured a lot of the dreaminess and emotion of gothic horror in how they approached making a setting). The setting also came equipped with lots of tools for making the horror work better (including changing spells, and altering certain character class features, but also monster customization, making monsters more powerful, giving domain lords and the dark powers power). I never really had much trouble getting Ravenloft to be gothic horror. D&D might not be as lethal as some horror games, but as a consequence it has some truly powerful and strange monsters, and something like level drain can put the fear of god into players. Characters do get more powerful though, so that does change things (but those early levels can be very lethal: had a player taken out by a splinter in one of the book of crypts adventures)

Gothic horror isn't about a band of characters who go from location to location, slaughtering hordes of monsters along the way. It's about personal horror and inner conflicts. The characters in such stories typically come to tragic ends, or suffer dramatic transformations. These two structures are fundamentally at odds.

That's why I say that Ravenloft is D&D with some of the trappings of gothic horror, because it largely misses the heart of gothic stories. The goal is to use the superficial trappings, like haunted castles, stormy weather, and strange accents, in copious amounts to help get the players into the mood. Then use NPCs to evoke the more personal elements, like transformations, mysteries, romance, innocence vs. depravity, and tragedy. But the PCs and their players will be at best one removed, because even the player facing elements like corruption by the Dark Powers, will take place over the course of a campaign rather than a single story (adventure).

I find it works best to recognize that Ravenloft is, at heart, D&D. Don't try to replicate stories of gothic horror, because it's the wrong medium. Instead, take D&D adventure structures, and wrap them in gothic trappings.

Ravenloft wasn't really about slaughtering hordes of monsters. I found it worked best with scenarios focused on one monster. And Gothic horror is also about contending with monsters. Dracula is a good example (also an example featuring a group of characters, not just a single character). And yes there is the element of personal tragedy, which is what the horrors check is for. But they needed to translate gothic horror into something gameable too. So it often played a lot like the hammer horror gothic films. Which I think worked. I can only speak for myself, but I found Ravenloft worked best when it was not leaning into being D&D but actively eschewing D&Disms. Again this is something you see very much in the black boxed set (rather than say DoD, which does lean more into the fantasy elements). I quite liked how it played when you did things like limit the magic items, downplay dungeon crawls, and focus on bringing gothic and classic horror to the table. You can still include plenty of things that are gameable in the D&D system. Gothic horror features plenty of castles, tombs, ruins and other places to explore; it features plenty of vampires to stake through the heart---that stuff all works in the D&D system. Ravenloft just gave it enough tweaks so it worked in a gothic mode. Maybe not for everyone. But for me it definitely played very well that way

Quote from: Pat on June 14, 2021, 12:42:17 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 13, 2021, 02:40:25 PM

Not sure how accurate that is. I always just went by what I saw in the gothic stories I read and in the classic horror movies I watched. Obviously Ravenloft is a game, and is set in a fantasy world (though I think they captured a lot of the dreaminess and emotion of gothic horror in how they approached making a setting). The setting also came equipped with lots of tools for making the horror work better (including changing spells, and altering certain character class features, but also monster customization, making monsters more powerful, giving domain lords and the dark powers power). I never really had much trouble getting Ravenloft to be gothic horror. D&D might not be as lethal as some horror games, but as a consequence it has some truly powerful and strange monsters, and something like level drain can put the fear of god into players. Characters do get more powerful though, so that does change things (but those early levels can be very lethal: had a player taken out by a splinter in one of the book of crypts adventures)

It's about personal horror and inner conflicts

Is it? I am not so sure. I posted the wikipedia definition. Again perhaps that isn't accurate. But I did read a lot of gothic horror, and the overview seems pretty sound. I am no academic though, just a fan of horror. I think there is a lot more that is at the core of gothic horror than personal horror and inner conflict. I mean, yes those things can exist in gothic horror stories. But inner conflict is something that exists often in literature. It is very easy to explore that in literature. Much harder to explore inner conflict in a game. I think something like powers checks can get close. But you are probably not going to reliably have inner conflict and personal horror in a typical RPG (whether it is D&D or not). But they do lay out what they mean by gothic horror and classic horror in the black box, and I think they achieve those things with it. Maybe that is not the current academic definition of gothic horror, or maybe they missed something about gothic horror you think is important. For me it always captured stories like Shelley's, Stoker's, Le Fanu's and Walpole's well. And it definitely got all the trappings of the classic universal and hammer movies I thought. I think the personal horror and inner conflict you talk about is something that is present in the setting but often through the Domain lords.