Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 24, 2021, 11:49:45 AM
Jessica Price is working on the book and is trying to reassure people on Twitter that they're clearing out the 'problematic' bits.

So, I went to Twitter to see what she was saying.  As usual, reading stuff on Twitter is its own punishment.  After wading through a bunch of religious stuff, she and (I presume) other writers are happy that it will be "very queer".

I honestly don't know what I'm supposed to take away from that.  Is this one of those "it's not for you" things and I'm not supposed to buy it if I don't meet their definition of queer?  Or if I do buy it and don't play it the "right way", I'm in trouble?

Quote from: Almost_Useless on February 24, 2021, 11:04:33 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 24, 2021, 11:49:45 AM
Jessica Price is working on the book and is trying to reassure people on Twitter that they're clearing out the 'problematic' bits.

So, I went to Twitter to see what she was saying.  As usual, reading stuff on Twitter is its own punishment.  After wading through a bunch of religious stuff, she and (I presume) other writers are happy that it will be "very queer".

I honestly don't know what I'm supposed to take away from that.  Is this one of those "it's not for you" things and I'm not supposed to buy it if I don't meet their definition of queer?  Or if I do buy it and don't play it the "right way", I'm in trouble?

a very queer ravenloft surely ratchets up the fear and horror factor...strahd may suck more than your blood and become an impaler of sorts.

The new slogan?

"Ravenloft...watch your cornhole, bud."

I am a bit obsessed with 5e's CoS, writing a guide about how to run it.

http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/search/label/Curse%20of%20Strahd

So. I might get the book, although I though I was done with 5e book for a while.

However...

I'd prefer other setting, since we already have CoS.

The whole thing, it seems, won't improve CoS much. On the contrary, having more domains and players who are, themselves, undead, vampires etc., might take away from the uniqueness of Strahd in the module.

"More dark gifts" are indeed a must for CoS, so that's good. "Expanded bestiary", nice.

Having tips on how to run a PG version oh Ravenloft is, well.. not for me, I guess.


EDIT: one small thing...

Having a "Viktora Mordenheim" character irritated me a little. Feels lazy and stupid. Why not "Mary Mordenheim" or "Shelley Mordenheim". If feels like they don't actually know the stuff they are writing about  (yes, the original was Victor Mordenheim, so not any better; maybe there was a Viktora somewhere I do' nt know about).

Anything, it is a little inconsequential thing, and sits well with "Van Richten", I guess, although Van Richten at least is not Abraham Van Richten.

Quote from: Almost_Useless on February 24, 2021, 11:04:33 PM
I honestly don't know what I'm supposed to take away from that.  Is this one of those "it's not for you" things and I'm not supposed to buy it if I don't meet their definition of queer?  Or if I do buy it and don't play it the "right way", I'm in trouble?

  Given that 'the negative consequences of transgressive sexual behavior' are a strong subtext in traditional Gothics, this could be a case of the source material approaching a head-on collision with the agenda. Then again, Ravenloft already mitigated the racial and anti-Catholic elements of the source material, although those got largely filtered out of the Gothic by the time it hit the stuff that the setting used for inspiration.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 25, 2021, 09:35:52 AM

Quote from: Almost_Useless on February 24, 2021, 11:04:33 PM
I honestly don't know what I'm supposed to take away from that.  Is this one of those "it's not for you" things and I'm not supposed to buy it if I don't meet their definition of queer?  Or if I do buy it and don't play it the "right way", I'm in trouble?

  Given that 'the negative consequences of transgressive sexual behavior' are a strong subtext in traditional Gothics, this could be a case of the source material approaching a head-on collision with the agenda. Then again, Ravenloft already mitigated the racial and anti-Catholic elements of the source material, although those got largely filtered out of the Gothic by the time it hit the stuff that the setting used for inspiration.

I am not sure what she meant by queer in this case, but I do think it is fair to point out that there is definitely an argument to be made for that existing in books like Dracula, on a non-surface level, and much more on the surface in stuff like Carmilla (and since Hammer was clearly an influence, I would say the Vampire Lovers probably were as well). Definitely horror long has a transgressive quality to it. Ravenloft definitely always had sensuality under the surface and hinted at in the art and in descriptions (it wasn't Vampire for sure, but it was the 90s, and stuff like that was present I think: though in a much more Bride of Frankenstein kind of way---and Bride of Frankenstein itself is definitely an influence on the setting and certainly held up frequently as an example of queer cinema). I suspect she means something quite different by queer in this instance. But I do think Ravenloft was often a refuge for GMs who felt out of place in society in some way (and there are dark lords who leap to mind that I can definitely say felt queer). Also I do think it is worth pointing out, women writers had a big role in shaping Ravenloft. The first module was co-written by Laura Hickman. One of the biggest module writers, and one of the best, was Lisa Smedman (who wrote Castles Forlorn and a number of others). The black boxed set was co-written by Andria Heyday. Teeunym Woodruff wrote both the Created (one of the best Van Richten books) and the Guide to Fiends. Most of the novels were written by women if I recall. I think this gave it a slightly different feel than some of the other settings (though I wasn't too into those so maybe they had more female writers too). 

Quote from: BedrockBrendan on February 25, 2021, 09:56:51 AM
I am not sure what she meant by queer in this case, but I do think it is fair to point out that there is definitely an argument to be made for that existing in books like Dracula, on a non-surface level, and much more on the surface in stuff like Carmilla (and since Hammer was clearly an influence, I would say the Vampire Lovers probably were as well). Definitely horror long has a transgressive quality to it. Ravenloft definitely always had sensuality under the surface and hinted at in the art and in descriptions

  Sure; you can find genderfluid and S&M-practicing NPCs in the Black Box if you read between the lines. But in the old material and the traditional Gothic, you have to read between the lines and can often read it as cautionary, not the overt and celebratory dimension that it sounds like the new team is bringing to matters.

  To put the difference in relief: Is the problem that gives rise to Ravenloft Strahd's lust for his brother's bride, or just the fact that the people involved weren't willing to share?

QuoteAlso I do think it is worth pointing out, women writers had a big role in shaping Ravenloft. The first module was co-written by Laura Hickman. One of the biggest module writers, and one of the best, was Lisa Smedman (who wrote Castles Forlorn and a number of others). The black boxed set was co-written by Andria Heyday. Teeunym Woodruff wrote both the Created (one of the best Van Richten books) and the Guide to Fiends. Most of the novels were written by women if I recall. I think this gave it a slightly different feel than some of the other settings (though I wasn't too into those so maybe they had more female writers too).

  Don't forget Cindi Rice, who handled line editing duties for the last phase of the TSR run. Even TSR was aware that the line had a stronger female audience than most D&D settings, according to the sales text in the 1994 catalog.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 25, 2021, 10:16:10 AM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan on February 25, 2021, 09:56:51 AM
I am not sure what she meant by queer in this case, but I do think it is fair to point out that there is definitely an argument to be made for that existing in books like Dracula, on a non-surface level, and much more on the surface in stuff like Carmilla (and since Hammer was clearly an influence, I would say the Vampire Lovers probably were as well). Definitely horror long has a transgressive quality to it. Ravenloft definitely always had sensuality under the surface and hinted at in the art and in descriptions

  Sure; you can find genderfluid and S&M-practicing NPCs in the Black Box if you read between the lines. But in the old material and the traditional Gothic, you have to read between the lines and can often read it as cautionary, not the overt and celebratory dimension that it sounds like the new team is bringing to matters.

  To put the difference in relief: Is the problem that gives rise to Ravenloft Strahd's lust for his brother's bride, or just the fact that the people involved weren't willing to share?

You did have to read between the lines, but in some cases, it was pretty obvious. I don't think it was meant as cautionary though. My reading of Ravenloft isn't that it was reinforcing traditional morality or sexuality. It certainly wasn't particularly current either in the way people think of these things now. But I do think a lot of people who were drawn to Ravenloft, were drawn to it because they felt out of place (whether that was sexually, socially, etc).

I think Strahd's whole thing was just meant to be about jealousy, fear of death and aging, and betrayal of his brother. I don't think they were even conscious of what you are suggesting

Quote from: BronzeDragon on February 24, 2021, 06:47:44 PMI love the fact that on the promotion material for the new book they list the opportunity of playing an Undead Pact Warlock. A PC that draws his power directly from an undead entity in RAVENLOFT.

That would be the fastest trip to chargen ever in previous iterations.

It seems to me that most darklords could have Warlocks. It might be interesting as well if they could have Warlocks but those Warlocks could pass into other domains.

Quote from: Lynn on February 25, 2021, 01:07:38 PM
It seems to me that most darklords could have Warlocks. It might be interesting as well if they could have Warlocks but those Warlocks could pass into other domains.

Yeah, and that lock would get a Dark Powers check every time he used any spells or class abilities.

Way to build a PC that is destined to be an NPC before he hits second level.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan on February 24, 2021, 05:30:05 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2021, 01:24:49 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2021, 11:35:31 AM
In my experience, when shown that their characters are doomed without a glimmer of hope, then players are usually like "Whatever. Can we start a new campaign yet?" Character doom and death happens regularly in an RPG, so it's not actually horrific. I find that to get real horror flavor, there needs to be some actual hope -- and especially, there need to be things that the players care about.

I agree strongly with this, and the Demiplane/Doomed/Dark Powers thing is a big turn off for me. 5e Curse of Strahd actually seems worse than the 1e Ravenloft module in this regard.

It wasn't really that way in my experience. The doomed of Ravenloft are the dark lords. But the players don't have to go down that path unless they choose to do bad things (and all stuff was pretty codified in terms of what constituted a transgression). Plus the percentage chance on powers checks were generally low. The one area people sometimes got screwed was stuff like necromantic magic (which prompted checks)

Exactly. Your fresh faced PCs were the glimmers of hope in Ravenloft. The Dark Powers use such recurring Glimmers of Hope to Chastise and Torture the Dark Lords... Eternally. The question is up to the players if they are willing and able. It's the ultimate in a meaningful choice: beat them, join them, or die trying. 

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 25, 2021, 09:13:05 AM
EDIT: one small thing...

Having a "Viktora Mordenheim" character irritated me a little. Feels lazy and stupid. Why not "Mary Mordenheim" or "Shelley Mordenheim". If feels like they don't actually know the stuff they are writing about  (yes, the original was Victor Mordenheim, so not any better; maybe there was a Viktora somewhere I do' nt know about).

Anything, it is a little inconsequential thing, and sits well with "Van Richten", I guess, although Van Richten at least is not Abraham Van Richten.

In one of the Ravenloft Facebook pages, someone suggested that the gender-swap could be taken as the Dark Powers toying with them. I plan on getting this book, and this is what I plan to do with it.
Of course, since my group and I are not as woke as the current publishers want and still play 5e (or in my case, run Savage Worlds), we don't care if we aren't up to their standards.

Sounds like its going to be a mess no matter.

Regarding Mordenheim. I think a gender swap is perfectly viable if done right. For example its his sister, or its actually some creation or monster that has replaced him, or even something Mordenheim created to stand in and deal with things while he works undisturbed. Or even a reveal that he was HER creation and now shes done with something and stepping to the fore.

Unfortunately WOTC will likely do none of these things.

I checked out the link to the book and I'm actually looking forward to it. I tried to create my own "domains of dread" for a Ravenloft game, but it never got past session 2. Some quick comments/questions:

General take: Hickman comments in the premise to CoS that he saw the vampire in the monster manual and thought "What's that guy doing here?" My main problem with Ravenloft is I ask "What are elves and dwarves doing here?"

Wokeness: I'm surprised that they're putting this much energy into a trope that's basically a rapist (vampire) with reinforced stereotypes of women as weak victims. As Arcmchair Gamer points out, "source material approaching a head-on collision with the agenda." (noice!)

Warlock pacts: At first I recoiled when I heard this, but now I think it would make for some great intrigue.

Folkovnia: What was the problem here?

Vistani: I don't care if they are erased or sanitized. I already did that, since I found the drinking, thieving, fortune-telling stereotype boring. I guess that makes me Deplorable since I was supposed to find it offensive.

Viktora Mordenheim: I usually don't like erasures of established characters in comics (i.e. Lady Thor) but I don't know this character, so it doesn't bother me.

Queerness: I agree with Bedrock's long post that queerness has always been part of the vampire thing.

Weekend in hell: Yeah, that did suck. Uh-oh, I'm agreeing with Bedrock too much...

Players need to have something to care about: I'm no doubt botching what John Kim said way upthread, but it's spot on. The thing is it's almost impossible to get players to create characters who care about anything. Especially in D&D. In Hero, you have Dependent NPCs which reward you for points for caring, and it seems to be the 2nd least popular disadvantage. Phobias being the number one.

so if your character fails fear or horror checks against a gay strahd that thinks the pc is tatyana reborn (er..todd reborn in this case maybe?) does that make him a homophobe?

"take the undead weenus you bigot!"

guys i can't even; i liked ravenloft i always thought these types hated it enough to not bastardize it, guess not. nothing is sacred.

Quote from: Aglondir on February 26, 2021, 01:24:16 AM
Queerness: I agree with Bedrock's long post that queerness has always been part of the vampire thing.

Yeah but queerness back then was a lot different than queerness now.  You don't have to go too far back to find "weird fetish" means hetero oral sex, masturbation, or even just a lady riding a horse non-side saddle.  Everything has gotten so coarse now.  If you don't support Bisexual Roadside Gas Station Meth Orgies you're a fucking bigot.  "It's a normal part of human sexuality!"

I don't think Stoker ever envisaged Dracula packing fudge.