What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
What's cool about it?
What's lame?
What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
What's cool about it?
What's lame?
What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
I used to have the core setting book back in the day. If I remember correctly, once you're in Ravenloft you're fucked and can never leave. So you roam around the "Realms" which are each ruled over a tyrant or lord of some sort. These lords are usually "D&D" versions of archetypal Gothic horror characters.
It's a pretty cool setting, but the literary aspirations and various intricacies don't really mesh with the "kill things and take their shit" mechanics of D&D.
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
What's cool about it?
What's lame?
What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
You must get feast of goblyns. Has the GM screen, kartakan inn, and ravenloft character sheet. Also has Skald and Harmonia. Stepping out, but will try to write more tonight.
I've been told that the 3E Book for Ravenloft produced by White Wolf/Sword & Sorcery was very good. I've never owned it however as it came out long after I'd stopped playing later versions of D&D.
The Domains of Dread hardback is the best all-in-one resource for the setting. However, it annoyingly refers to other products all over the place in an obvious attempt to get you to buy the whole line.
What's good in Ravenloft: some of the domains have interesting plot-hooks that will get your mind working on potential adventure ideas. There are also some great adventures in the line: Night of the Walking Dead is one of the best adventures I've ever bought.
What's bad in Ravenloft: it's not that influenced by Gothic literature per se; it's more like Hammer Horror meets D&D. Also, the Dark Lords are fairly lame and obvious pastiches. They have the 2e issue of having pages and pages of backstory that has no effect in play--this is the work of frustrated would-be novelists.
Quote from: Silverlion;592568I've been told that the 3E Book for Ravenloft produced by White Wolf/Sword & Sorcery was very good. I've never owned it however as it came out long after I'd stopped playing later versions of D&D.
Someone misled you on that score, heh.
Quote from: misterguignol;592593Someone misled you on that score, heh.
Totally.
I like the 3e book, and would recommend it for a one-stop.
What did you guys dislike about it?
Quote from: misterguignol;592591What's bad in Ravenloft: it's not that influenced by Gothic literature per se; it's more like Hammer Horror meets D&D.
That's sounds awesome to me. I've never been a big fan of gothic novels but I LOVE hammer horror films.
Quote from: One Horse Town;592608Totally.
I think in fairness, it depends. I tendto agree with you and mr guignol on this one. But i have met tons of people who love the white wolf/S&S books. Personally i feel they take the setting from gothic to goth and they just have too much of a white wolf vibe for my tastes. However they did do some things well like make some of the setting info (such as language and religion distribution more clear). Thet eliminated any absolute measure of distance though, making the setting quite amorphous.
A lot of people like domains of dread, but i am not a fan. Instead i suggest the black or red boxed set (domains of dread works best if you have that andother source book because it leaves out a lot of stuff on the vistani and other important details).
To OP: Personally i say get the red or black boxed set, feast of goblyns, castles forlorn and (seconding mrguignols suggestion) the night of the walking dead.
I ythink i see some of the things mrguignol lays out as weaknesses, strengths of the setting. The gothic pastiche for lords, the heavy borrowing from hammer studios, all of it worked for. Ravenloft is great ecause it has a degree of camp that I think hits the right feel for me. Mrguignol is much more of an expert on gothic literature and such, so you may want to take his advice here, but as someone who was into books like dracula, frankenstein, etc, it felt gothic enough for my tastes when i was playing it.
What works: the fear, horror and powers checks rules were awesome (particularly powers checks). You do evil things in ravenloft you earn double edged gifts from the dark powers and begin a process of transformation that an deepen with each additional evil deed.
The changes they make to spells and other mechanics work well.
The setting itself is also good, with the core concept of a demiplane that sucks folks in from other realms and has individual domains that reflect the personality of their lord (i think you take this out, you dont have ravenloft.
I felt the setting worked best as weekend in hell, or "the prisoner" with pcs as non natives brought to ravenloft by the mists.
What doesn't work: the setting material is plagued with much of the railroading, storyteller philosophy prevalent at the time. The advice is easily ignored, but running some of he modules requires you work around this.
Quote from: Piestrio;592614That's sounds awesome to me. I've never been a big fan of gothic novels but I LOVE hammer horror films.
They even do a omain based on the lost continent. If you loved hammer, you will love ravenloft (van richten is basically peter cushing).
Quote from: mcbobbo;592612I like the 3e book, and would recommend it for a one-stop.
What did you guys dislike about it?
The 3e book is simultaneously bland (ugh, the way the various domains are described make them all sound the same) and yet it also has that "edgy" White Wolf feel to it that I personally find annoying.
I thought the WW ones were all well done, but really I thought the Red Box was the best. If you can find them, the Van Richten's Monster Hunter Compendiums are a great way to collect the info that had previously been released in something like 3 or so separate products.
One of the things that I think sort of got lost along the way was the original concept that many domains aren't all that bad all the time. Barovia, for example, is supposed to have some beautiful spots.
As each edition came out, it seemed like you were passing from one hell into the next. I never ran it that way. Darklords shouldn't be a part of day to day life, but they should cast a terrible shadow, so to speak.
I liked the 1e box set and the 2e hardcover book. Both were fairly different from each other, but both really nailed the atmosphere of the setting perfectly.
I've run several 2E era Ravenloft campaigns, and tried 3E. It's easily among my favourite settings for D&D.
Much of the WW material for 3E is very good. The base book is only ok, but the Gazetteers, for example, are excellent. Unfortunately, the atmosphere of Ravenloft suffers heavily under the 3.x system. It's hard to put one's finger on exactly what the problem is, but if I had to try, I'd say it's something to do with a combination of the power level assumptions in 3.x (higher than AD&D), and reduced lethality of many monster abilities (energy drain, poison, etc.). It's just much harder to frighten players (as opposed to characters) in D&D 3.x There may also be something about how the newer system encourages more out-of-character thinking that breaks the suspension of disbelief necessary for Fear and Horror in an RPG.
As for the original AD&D 2E material, I'd definitely recommend either the Red (preferably) or Black (plus Forbidden Lore) Boxed base sets. They lay all the groundwork (rules-wise) for the setting, provide lots of actual setting material, and give lots of good advice for running a Ravenloft game.
Beyond this, Feast of Goblyns is both a pretty good adventure (with a slightly out-of-place dungeon crawl in it), as well as a DM's screen, character sheet, and mini setting book in its own right.
As for other modules, Night of the Walking Dead is an awesome module! My players still remember that one. There are a couple moments that, if you manage to set the mood up to that point, you may be able to evoke real horror in your players.
The Created was also excellent, but I will warn you right now that it has a serious railroad in the middle that the adventure hangs on. This is the adventure that originally convinced me that not all railroading was bad. The players I've run through it loved it, and many had that truly rare reaction during an RPG: fear! They could not have cared less that they were briefly railroaded. Obviously, if such a thing is absolutely antithetical to your players, steer clear (although my players would have said it was to them, too).
Hour of the Knife can work well, and is a fun cat-and-mouse murder mystery, but takes more DM work.
Lastly, I got a lot of use out of The Book of Crypts, which was a supplement with a bunch of mini-adventures in it. Many of these are, as written, just ok (though a couple are superb; see: Blood in Moondale). However, if you're willing (as a DM) to weave them into an ongoing campaign you can make them truly shine.
Moving away from adventures, also excellent are Van Richten's Guides. Each covers a particular kind of monster (Lycanthrope, Ghost, Vampire, etc.) and how they differ in Ravenloft, both in terms of rules, and how they can be used to build an adventure. These are seriously some of the best supplements I have purchased for any game, ever. I can't recommend the ones covering Vampires, Ghosts and Werebeasts highly enough. The rest are also good, with the only one I found weak being the Vistani guide.
Most of the rest of the material was hit and miss, but the above is enough to keep a good DM going for a very long time.
One other book I'd recommend isn't actually a D&D book, or even from TSR: Nightmares of Mine, published by the now defunct I.C.E. was a great book on incorporating horror into any RPG. Well worth a read if you're thinking of running this type of game.
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
What's cool about it?
The Van Richten's Guides for 2e. They had so many cool ways to make classic villainous creatures cool and interesting.
QuoteWhat's lame?
Setting tie-ins.
Caesar Slaad's reply made me realise I didn't answer the OP's specific questions.
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
The Red Box, otherwise known as Ravenloft Campaign Setting
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What's cool about it?
Aside from everything? See my previous post for cool products, but as to the setting itself, the atmosphere. It has a very different vibe from regular D&D, and it lends itself well to creating real fear and horror (in the "watching a scary movie" sense) in your players. Engendering those emotions in a bunch of hardened, jaded roleplayers is one of the most satisfying DMing experiences I've ever had.
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What's lame?
A bunch of the published material. No, really. As good as some of it was, some of it was off-the-charts abysmal. There are also lots of things to watch for, lest your Ravenloft games
become lame. Like every adventure being about "kill the local Darklord" or similar. Like incessant horror without interlude, inoculating players to its effect. Like "weekend in hell" syndrome. It can actually be tricky to keep a Ravenloft campaign from breaking down for various reasons, and I think this is why I've seen so many people claim that it always breaks down (which is rubbish).
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
Aside from the Red Box? Van Richten's Guide to either Vampires or Ghosts.
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
Why,
I6 Ravenloft of course.
Other than that, I have to second
Feast of Goblyns. I never used Ravenloft as a "domain of dread", its own campaign setting, but I transplanted Feast... to a regular setting (Greyhawk).
What I really liked about the whole RL line was
Stephen Fabian. His illustrations are absolutely stunning.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;592681The Van Richten's Guides for 2e. They had so many cool ways to make classic villainous creatures cool and interesting..
Seconded
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;592761Why, I6 Ravenloft of course.
Other than that, I have to second Feast of Goblyns. I never used Ravenloft as a "domain of dread", its own campaign setting, but I transplanted Feast... to a regular setting (Greyhawk).
What I really liked about the whole RL line was Stephen Fabian. His illustrations are absolutely stunning.
Yep. I6 remains the original and the best.
Quote from: Bobloblah;592675The Created was also excellent, but I will warn you right now that it has a serious railroad in the middle that the adventure hangs on. This is the adventure that originally convinced me that not all railroading was bad. The players I've run through it loved it, and many had that truly rare reaction during an RPG: fear! They could not have cared less that they were briefly railroaded. Obviously, if such a thing is absolutely antithetical to your players, steer clear (although my players would have said it was to them, too).
.
I had a similar reaction to the created. Ran it twice in the 90s andit went well. Ran it recently again, and therailroading was surprisingly eavy handed (and there are a couple of instances in the book where it really creates problems).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;592780I had a similar reaction to the created. Ran it twice in the 90s andit went well. Ran it recently again, and therailroading was surprisingly eavy handed (and there are a couple of instances in the book where it really creates problems).
Interesting. I haven't run that module for nearly a decade now, but it wasn't as if I was new when I originally ran it; nor were my players. Having said that, I agree that it railroads, hence the reason for the cautionary notes in my recommendation of it. It has still been exceedingly well received every time I've run it.
I'll also chime in on the awesomeness of Fabian's art. It's a key part of the aesthetic of the setting for me. Good for mood setting, too, when it can be used in game.
What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
The origional module called 'Ravenloft' and or 'Feast of Goblyns"
What's cool about it?
A setting that uses Horror as a theme is cool to me.
What's lame?
Players that know too much about the setting :)
What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
I really loved Van Richten's Guide to the Ancient Dead
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
What's cool about it?
What's lame?
What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
Best introduction: a low-level adventure in either Darkon, Barovia or Falkovnia (IMO)
Cool: rules on fear, terror, etc.; the atmosphere of the setting
Lame: too many different eras are represented within the setting (à la Forgotten Realms, but even worse) and some of the lords of the domains are hardly original
Must have product: just the basic set
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
What's cool about it?
What's lame?
What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
I like either the 2e Domains of Dread or the White Wolf core books, because I prefer it as its own setting over "a weekend in Hell".
I like the Gothic horror aspects. The villains lurking in the shadows, the ever-present monsters...Paladins standing out like a sore thumb...gypsies that give you fortune readings that may just be them sending you to your doom...the constant threat of corruption if you don't stay on the side of the angels...
The rough fit of the D&D system with the Ravenloft setting, IMO.
Nightmare Lands. That boxed set is the only time the Nightmare Lands are ever explained in any kind of detail.
Quote from: mcbobbo;592612I like the 3e book, and would recommend it for a one-stop.
What did you guys dislike about it?
The fact that it doesn't provide complete information; it doesn't actually explain the settings, or tell you who the dark lords are of each place. Its crippleware.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Lynn;592657As each edition came out, it seemed like you were passing from one hell into the next. I never ran it that way. Darklords shouldn't be a part of day to day life, but they should cast a terrible shadow, so to speak.
I think that's an important clarification; Ravenloft isn't supposed to be "What If...Sauron won the War of the Ring?", so much as each of the Darklords is each land's "dirty little secret". It's supposed to be dark and romantic, filled with beautiful imagery, but something terrible lies below the waters...
I think it can and should be a bit of both; the thing is each domain of dread is meant to represent a particular type of horror story; and some of them are very openly horrific places to be in because they emulate that kind of horror story, while others are places that look nice but have an undercurrent of darkness or corruption, because they emulate a different kind of horror.
RPGPundit
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;592772Seconded
Thirded.
Quote from: RPGPundit;594705I think it can and should be a bit of both; the thing is each domain of dread is meant to represent a particular type of horror story; and some of them are very openly horrific places to be in because they emulate that kind of horror story, while others are places that look nice but have an undercurrent of darkness or corruption, because they emulate a different kind of horror.
RPGPundit
Definitely.
Some of the Domains should SCREAM "Do not step foot here!" while others should seem perfectly nice and harmless...at first...
Did anyone either run or play in the Castle Forlorn boxed set? How was it? I have it but never got a chance to run it.
Quote from: Lynn;594724Did anyone either run or play in the Castle Forlorn boxed set? How was it? I have it but never got a chance to run it.
I ran it ages ago and really liked it. But it has been a while and I no longer have a copy.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;594725I ran it ages ago and really liked it. But it has been a while and I no longer have a copy.
Same here, all the way around. The PCs made it through intact, but scarred...specifically, one was aged about 30 years by a ghost (and he was human).
The castle map in I6 is the best thing.
Quote from: misterguignol;592591What's bad in Ravenloft: it's not that influenced by Gothic literature per se; it's more like Hammer Horror meets D&D.
That's a bad thing?
QuoteAlso, the Dark Lords are fairly lame and obvious pastiches. They have the 2e issue of having pages and pages of backstory that has no effect in play--this is the work of frustrated would-be novelists.
Well, you get paid by the word, and some editors actually want that stuff. Or maybe they did at the time.
JG
Quote from: Piestrio;592551What is the best introduction to Ravenloft?
What's cool about it?
What's lame?
What's the one must have Ravenloft product?
The best introduction? Ravenloft is a game that requires the storyteller to set a mood, and give intense details to make the hearts of his players pound in genuine terror. It is a story of Gothic Horror, the dark arcanum, and Mythos-inspired entities.
The Overlords, each a sort of dark power, each have a slice of the realm of Ravenloft, and each mandate whether it is possible to pass either in or out of their respective realm, and if they permit you to simply walk across a field into the realm of another Overlord. They also limit the use of spells--especially divine spells--in their domains, and the casting of any inherently good spell essentially always requires an opposed
powers check against that Overlord.
While it is possible to play any 'alignment', the traditional stories require you to start as 'good', and will slowly corrupt you. The game, as I recall, has both a corruption system and a madness system. Some storytellers do not make use of these, however, they are int he system for a good reason.
I believe one of the outlines in 'Ravenloft' reads like this:
In a normal AD&D setting, when characters are walking across a bridge approaching a troll, you may say '
You approach the bridge, and see a large troll standing on it.',
but in Ravenloft, you would state:
'
The mists surround you, and the wind howls in your ears like the chill voices of lost souls. You hear a trickling stream, probably of icy water in the near distance. As you gaze abroad, you can see a dilapidated wooden bridge that spans the rippling currents, and through the veil that shades the land in grey shadows, you can barely make out a gruesome figure, twice the height of a man, with glowing blue eyes and a bloodied axe standing aloft on the crumbling crossing.'
That is the difference between Ravenloft (run properly) and AD&D.
I haven't run a Ravenloft game since it converted to d20, so I couldn't say what products sold today are worth owning. I suggest buying the core book and going from there to decide if you like it, and if you feel able to run it appropriately. You might even pick up an old copy of the original system, and try running that first.
I don't know if the new materials stand up to the old, or if they became more video-game-ish in nature: I hope that it has withstood the test of time, and the core book has always had one pre-designed scenario for you to run, until you get the swing of things.
if you enjoy this sort of thing, I also advise Mythos games. They are also designed for the detailed, horror-based and 'good vs. the questionable' motif. Ravenloft is not necessarily evil, but the purpose and ideals of the Overlords are not understood well by anyone by them.
Ravenloft is rumoured to be a prison for them, and they may be fallen gods, or otherworldly horrors, or men who became so powerful and corrupt that they were cursed and banished to the realm. Escape is impossible, or so all legends state. (I believe there is an artefact in 2e that escaped from Ravenloft though, and I would guess that if you can pass a powers check, a Spelljammer
might be able to break away. All of that is up to the storyteller.
One of the goals is often for the PCs to find a way out, much like the D&D animated series, which was somewhat influenced by Ravenloft in concept.
The fun pat is that you can send anyone, from any setting, or any universe, or any level of technology, science, magic or psychic ability tot he realm. Their ray guns may start shooting out streams of bats, and their psy-powers trigger contact with Entities from Beyond. Heck, you could run a
Ghostbusters RPG and send the players there just as easily. The goal of the players: To escape.
Killing the Overlords may not even ever be mentioned. (X|S)
Quote from: MagesGuild;594891Ravenloft is not necessarily evil, but the purpose and ideals of the Overlords are not understood well by anyone by them
Hmm... You seem to be conflating darklords (such as Strahd etc.) with the Dark Powers, the ultimate and unknown authority in the realm. The former can be killed, even if it's tricky, while the latter don't even have names or stats.
Quote from: GrimGent;594900Hmm... You seem to be conflating darklords (such as Strahd etc.) with the Dark Powers, the ultimate and unknown authority in the realm. The former can be killed, even if it's tricky, while the latter don't even have names or stats.
Aye, I probably am. I recall Overlord-eque entities that controlled the domains and required powers checks, however I don't recall the standing of every other powerful being in the realm. I do remember that the Overlords, or whatever you have them, are more like wardens of a prison for the other powerful characters (e.g. Strahd), but I don't remember which of the two sets can control the boundaries between regions, or if both can do this, with the 'Dark powers' having the primary control, and the 'Dark Lords' to a lesser-extent.
I would call it ill-advised to try to kill a Dark lord as well, but try it at your own peril. (X|S)
Quote from: MagesGuild;594956Aye, I probably am. I recall Overlord-eque entities that controlled the domains and required powers checks, however I don't recall the standing of every other powerful being in the realm. I do remember that the Overlords, or whatever you have them, are more like wardens of a prison for the other powerful characters (e.g. Strahd), but I don't remember which of the two sets can control the boundaries between regions, or if both can do this, with the 'Dark powers' having the primary control, and the 'Dark Lords' to a lesser-extent.
I would call it ill-advised to try to kill a Dark lord as well, but try it at your own peril. (X|S)
Overlords, demilords, etc are distinctions created later on (pretty sure they appeared in Domains of Dread. Basically that just refers to the kind of domain they rule but all are domain lords. A demilord rules over a pocket domain, a lord rules over an island of terror, an overlord rules pver a cluster of isdlands, and a dark lord rules over a domain that is part of the core (so strahd would be a darklord and anton misroi is a lord. Dark lords are considered the most powerful. All have the same basic powers (though I am little fuzzy on how domain border closing works when an overlord comes into conflict with a lord inside his cluster) and the distinction is more about what is an appropriate challenge for different level PCs (as well as having more convenient titles to discuss domains and their rulers).
The dark powers are the wardens. These are the unamed and unknown mastes of the demiplane of dread. They supposedly created ravenloft and are the ones who control the mists, bring in new inhabitants, and respond to acts of evil in the form of powers checks. So a domain lord is imprisoned and cursed (or blessed) by the dark powers. What the dark powers are (and even if they exist) was deliberately left unanswered. Best not to leave them blank in my opinion. The worst ravenloft campaigns I played in were ones where the Gm tried to explain what the dark powers were.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;594966Overlords, demilords, etc are distinctions created later on (pretty sure they appeared in Domains of Dread. Basically that just refers to the kind of domain they rule but all are domain lords. A demilord rules over a pocket domain, a lord rules over an island of terror, an overlord rules pver a cluster of isdlands, and a dark lord rules over a domain that is part of the core (so strahd would be a darklord and anton misroi is a lord.
The 3e version apparently took a somewhat simpler approach to the terminology:
"Every aspect of a domain, from the climate to the creatures that call it home, is a subtle reflection of its darklord, offering painful reminders of the transgressions that forged the darklord's doom. The size of a domain may range from a single room, to a lonesome manor and its grounds, to an expansive dominion containing numerous towns and a thriving culture."
Quote from: James Gillen;594782That's a bad thing?
It is if you wanted something more akin to Gothic lit than D&D Hammer Horror, yes.
QuoteWell, you get paid by the word, and some editors actually want that stuff. Or maybe they did at the time.
JG
Maybe. But I think the stuff in game materials should be oriented toward playable content. Those long backstories (which, if we're honest, were the product of frustrated would-be novelists) were not gameable content.
My preference is for stuff I can actually use at the table. What is more useful: a backstory that won't come up in play or what a Dark Lord is up to RIGHT NOW that the characters can get involved in?
Quote from: misterguignol;594975It is if you wanted something more akin to Gothic lit than D&D Hammer Horror, yes.
in?
In your opionion, what would have made Ravenloft more in line with Gothic literature?
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;594977In your opionion, what would have made Ravenloft more in line with Gothic literature?
A random event chart with entries like "Giant helmets fall, everyone dies"?
(Actually, I did something along those lines for
Maid at one point.)
The Domain of Giant Falling Helmets.
That sounds scary enough.
JG
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;594977In your opionion, what would have made Ravenloft more in line with Gothic literature?
The same sort of stuff I've done in my
Tales of the Grotesque and Dungeonesque books, I suppose. My rules for terror and horror are more in-genre than Ravenloft's fear and horror saves; my gothic character archetypes give more indications on what types of characters fit the themes; my dark secrets tables and former professions tables give more genre emulation; etc.
And now I sound like a shill.
Quote from: misterguignol;595097The same sort of stuff I've done in my Tales of the Grotesque and Dungeonesque books, I suppose. My rules for terror and horror are more in-genre than Ravenloft's fear and horror saves; my gothic character archetypes give more indications on what types of characters fit the themes; my dark secrets tables and former professions tables give more genre emulation; etc.
And now I sound like a shill.
But your books are good stuff, so it's okay.
MisterGuignol - Since you're a lit professor, give me a survey course syllabus of Gothic Literature that hits well all the themes you brought into your RPG book.
Or if it includes such a syllabus, tell me to stop being a dumbass and just download it.