Quote from: Christopher Brady;907898Actually, that's not a ruin, that's a Xiticix hive.  Those aren't buildings in the background.

Is it? I thought the Xiticics hives looked like mushroom buildings?



In either case...

QuoteWe've rarely seen any of that sort of former city ruins to explore in RIFTS now that you mention it.

There's the Gargolye Empire, where the Empire is set in bunch of ruins, and Madhaven.
In this case, I'd probably riff on Madhaven, use the idea of ghosts and crazy/possessed mutants prowling the ruins.

In Rifts (And BTS) if I'm reading the descriptions correctly, ghosts aren't actually the spirits of dead people, but entities that are trapped in the memory event of a deceased person. Now, the players, (and their characters) don't necessarily have to know this bit of info, because I like the idea of the characters putting some of the "ghosts" to rest, a-la Poltergeist (the film) by resolving whatever event caused them to be. Like, reuniting a child ghost with it's ghost parents. Whether it's the actual spirit of a dead person, or an entity trapped in the psychic impression of a dead person, the "feel" should be the same.

Actually, North America too has its share of ruins — Chicago, St. Louis with the Devil's Gate, Quebec's Old Bones, Madhaven — it's just that there's a paucity of gameable detail set in these ruins (Old Bones and Madhaven being exceptions).

Everyone keeps telling me the Palladium rules are awful but I'm rereading the core rulebook (RUE, 5th printing) and I'm not seeing why the rules are so terrible. Rifts was the second RPG I ever played and we didn't have issues back in high school playing. Reading the rulebook again and it's not that complicated of a game. Character creation takes a long time and isn't well explained but once you're in the game the rules aren't that complicated. What am I missing?

Quote from: Ulairi;908030but once you're in the game the rules aren't that complicated. What am I missing?

They're not that complicated. I think that's one of the draws of Rifts (and Palladium) I think some parts are terribly wonky though.
I'm at work and not going to do a detailed breakdown, so here are the highlights. (low lights?)

mega damage to mdc ratios. I use a "Stop attacking yourself!" check where I take the typical (average) attacks and damage capacity of a monster/npc/whatever, factor in their attack to defend score (would hit 75% of the time, for example) and calculate how many turns it would take, on average, to kill an identical target. For most games, I consider a 4-6 turn self-defeat to be acceptable/average. Anything less is bit too lethal for my tastes, and anything over that to be grindy. I think I clocked most robots and power armor in Rifts at about a 10 turn self-defeat.
This plays out at the table, where one of our most common complaints is that combat takes too long.

Attacks per turn. Unless they tweaked it in the RUE, tracking HTH attacks is annoying and fiddly. A Juicer at 1st level can have 7 HTH attacks, while most characters have 4 or 5. The system doesn't seem very well thought out at all, in that every participant alternates attacks, until one runs out, and then the "other guy" gets all the rest of their HTH attacks in a row. So our Juicer would get 2-3 combat actions, but at the end of the turn, after his opponent has run out of opportunities to do anything except "pull" actions from the next turn to actively defend.

I already mentioned there are a lot of magic spells that do not affect targets in MDC body armor/power armor and robots, which is a big disadvantage in a setting where a lot of opponents are going to be wearing/riding in MDC gear and vehicles.

Those are a few complaints off the top of my head.

Quote from: The Butcher;908019Actually, North America too has its share of ruins — Chicago, St. Louis with the Devil's Gate, Quebec's Old Bones, Madhaven — it's just that there's a paucity of gameable detail set in these ruins (Old Bones and Madhaven being exceptions).

Quote from: Ratman_tf;907981There's the Gargolye Empire, where the Empire is set in bunch of ruins, and Madhaven.
In this case, I'd probably riff on Madhaven, use the idea of ghosts and crazy/possessed mutants prowling the ruins.

I meant in terms of art, I think the Madhaven book is the only one that uses a cover illo of a ruined city in the background. I could be wrong, however.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908075I meant in terms of art, I think the Madhaven book is the only one that uses a cover illo of a ruined city in the background. I could be wrong, however.

There's a few. In Triax there's an illustration of Gargoyles roosting in ruined skyscrapers. And I guess that one I linked to is a dead link? Bah.
It's a black and white of cyborgs prowling a ruin.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;908120There's a few. In Triax there's an illustration of Gargoyles roosting in ruined skyscrapers. And I guess that one I linked to is a dead link? Bah.
It's a black and white of cyborgs prowling a ruin.

Fair enough.  I guess, the point is that for a post-apoc world, there's not much that's been focused on ruins of older cities other than passing mention.

Then again, given how the power creep sort of exploderated over the years, that does seem a bit low powered when you can have PCs deal with Splugorth and Atlanteans and A.R.C.H.I.E. and Vampires and other big menaces...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;907921Not sure I honestly understand, are you saying you wanted RIFTS or Gamma World to be over the top?

Cuz to me, I've heard that Gamma World is over the top crazy... At least all the anecdotal stories I've heard about the sessions.

Thats Ward's doing. He kept stating Gamma World was "wild and wahoo" over and over and eventually we ended up with 4e with the cannibal biker librarian clowns, the bi-polar bear, and yadda-yadda and 4e D&D GW which happens after the "big oops" in the year ten monkey slap slap. quote the designers "Hilarity ensues."

1 and 2e were not goofball. 3e was odd but not a cartoon or over-the-top action.

Rifts though you expect weird stuff, not necessarily goofball, but look at some of the party combos possible you you get what we mean. And it tends to over the top action. Which is why I like Rifts.

And neither of those is what I look for in Morrow Project for example.

Quote from: Ulairi;908030Everyone keeps telling me the Palladium rules are awful but I'm rereading the core rulebook (RUE, 5th printing) and I'm not seeing why the rules are so terrible. Rifts was the second RPG I ever played and we didn't have issues back in high school playing. Reading the rulebook again and it's not that complicated of a game. Character creation takes a long time and isn't well explained but once you're in the game the rules aren't that complicated. What am I missing?

You are, like me, missing being spoon fed years of hate by people who 75% of the time never played the game or even looked at it and just hate it because someone told them to.

Yes there are some quirks in the rules. We played it and every other palladium game just fine.

Quote from: Omega;9081351 and 2e were not goofball.

Did 1e have Hoops? Giant humanoid rabbits that can transmute metal into rubber?
Hoops, IMO, are goofball.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908123Fair enough.  I guess, the point is that for a post-apoc world, there's not much that's been focused on ruins of older cities other than passing mention.

Then again, given how the power creep sort of exploderated over the years, that does seem a bit low powered when you can have PCs deal with Splugorth and Atlanteans and A.R.C.H.I.E. and Vampires and other big menaces...

Big menaces make for big scenarios. But it depends on how those scenarios are designed, which does bring me to another point.

Embracing the unbalance.

A common complaint about Rifts is how a party can include a Vagabond, a Psi Stalker, a Juicer and a Glitter Boy. This might seem unbalanced, but that's only if you're plunking down combat encounters of Brodkil or Vampires or whatever willy-nilly. Having a Juicer or Glitter Boy is nice when you encounter unfriendly sorts, and I'd never want to intentionally sideline the combat characters by making all kinds of nutty, intricate stealth only scenarios. But there's more to RPGs than solving every problem with a Boom Gun. And I'd really want to emphasize that.
K Siembieda said, I think it was in the first Rifts core rulebook, that Rifts is a "Thinking man's game" and while I think that statement is pretty pompus, I also think it's an important way to approach GMing Rifts. When every encounter looks like a combat, then the most combat capable characters are going to be the ones carrying the rest of the party.

I'm not the first person to break down scenario design like the following, but for quite a while now, I've used a 1/3rd framework. 1/3 combat encounters, 1/3 role playing interaction, and 1/3 problem solving.  There's no hard lines there. An RP encounter can become a combat encounter, etc. It's a rule of thumb to help me make fleshed out and interesting scenarios, and not just strings of combat encounters.

If a Rifts GM doesn't want to have parties of all Juicers, then I'd suggest thinking more about the other 2/3rds of a scenario. And speaking of, I think Juicer Uprising had some really neat ideas about how Juicers interact with others when they're not flipping out and killing things.

Quote from: Omega;908135Thats Ward's doing. He kept stating Gamma World was "wild and wahoo" over and over and eventually we ended up with 4e with the cannibal biker librarian clowns, the bi-polar bear, and yadda-yadda and 4e D&D GW which happens after the "big oops" in the year ten monkey slap slap. quote the designers "Hilarity ensues."

1 and 2e were not goofball. 3e was odd but not a cartoon or over-the-top action.

This is purely anecdotal, but around here, no one talks about the D&D 4e version without making hissing sounds and anti-vampire motions.  They only ever talk fondly about 2e, claiming it's the best, and then they go on about some REALLY gonzo stuff they pulled in a game.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;908058Attacks per turn. Unless they tweaked it in the RUE, tracking HTH attacks is annoying and fiddly. A Juicer at 1st level can have 7 HTH attacks, while most characters have 4 or 5. The system doesn't seem very well thought out at all, in that every participant alternates attacks, until one runs out, and then the "other guy" gets all the rest of their HTH attacks in a row. So our Juicer would get 2-3 combat actions, but at the end of the turn, after his opponent has run out of opportunities to do anything except "pull" actions from the next turn to actively defend.

Even a non-Juicer character can get up there in attacks. A character in a campaign I played briefly in had from skill application a total 3 Hand to hand and 2 kicks. +2 more for playing a Blade Wing Dragon Borg for a total of 7 right out the gate. That was the exception though and a later character had just 3 HTH. Which seems the norm unless someone is gearing for a melee expert.

Quote from: Simlasa;908143Did 1e have Hoops? Giant humanoid rabbits that can transmute metal into rubber?
Hoops, IMO, are goofball.

Oh goody. Cut and paste from the internet response! Good for you.

Yes obviously a giant rabbit is soooo goofball because it can turn metal into rubber.

Next.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908159This is purely anecdotal, but around here, no one talks about the D&D 4e version without making hissing sounds and anti-vampire motions.  They only ever talk fondly about 2e, claiming it's the best, and then they go on about some REALLY gonzo stuff they pulled in a game.

4e D&D GW is weird. People despise the slapstick setting. But praise it as what a 4e starter/streamlining should have been. As for 2e action. aheh, no different from D&D or whatever. I know some groups played it like Thundarr and others played it as closer to Morrow Project.