...stopped shitting on each other. Leave the mud-slinging to politicians and start promoting your games on their own merits. At the end of the day, you have to put your money where your mouth is. :brood:

Well, sure, but what do you expect? Look at how gamers treat games they don't like and those who play such games. Game designers come from the ranks of gamers, after all.

I can't remember who it was -- mearls, I think -- but one of the industry people said that the infighting was so viscious because the stakes (profits in the gaming industry) are so low.  The less there is to fight over, the nastier people get.

Quote from: CyberzombieI can't remember who it was -- mearls, I think -- but one of the industry people said that the infighting was so viscious because the stakes (profits in the gaming industry) are so low.  The less there is to fight over, the nastier people get.

I think it's a lot of that, but I also think it has to do with the often antisocial - or at least socially awkward - nature of many gamers, who seem to be very insecure and take anything - like game systems other than the ones they like or changes in old game systems, but also stuff like not being able to understand sarcasm or irony - as somehow being an affront to them personally. We see a lot of insecurity manifested in gamerdom - "My way is the only viable way to game!" "Why are they making new game stuff! You know I have to use it all or I won't be playing right!" As I mentioned, game designers are gamers first, so that kind of attitude has to manifest in some of them, at the least. Not all, or maybe even most, but some.

Quote from: CyberzombieI can't remember who it was -- mearls, I think -- but one of the industry people said that the infighting was so viscious because the stakes (profits in the gaming industry) are so low.  The less there is to fight over, the nastier people get.

yeah, it was Mearls.

I think that CH's position is not incompatible with that of mearls, though.

Quote from: Thjalfiyeah, it was Mearls.

I think that CH's position is not incompatible with that of mearls, though.

No, definitely not incompatible.  It just reveals another layer to the web of disfunction that is the gaming "industry".  

Also I may be wrong about this, but it seems to me that because this is such a niche industry the contact between designers and gamers are pretty close/frequent. Hell with all these online forums the interation between the people that make games and those that buy said games sometimes gets pretty intense.

Fans of one product/game will viciously attack fans of another game. I can't help but think this sometimes bleeds into the way how designers feel about people who play their games and those who do not.

I think a lot of the "shitting" that goes on is because fans/gamers themselves are so vicious about things they don't like. The way how some designers behave is merely a reflection of this attitude....I think (don't know to much about the industry...but have seen a lot of "not on" behaviour online.)

Regards,
David R

Yeah, I've said that repeatedly. I can't remember the original source, but it was something about campus politics.

I've thought about this a bit, particularly when I was a freelancer. There are plenty of people in the industry who are good eggs. Matt Forbeck does a ton to help out beginners. Ken Hite is a friendly guy. The dudes at FFG are always fun to hang out with. There's definitely an element at work where you only see the obnoxious idiots. On top of that, the Internet is just a natural magnet for people with defective personalities. You don't see Ken or Matt endlessly posting anywhere. I'd be surprised if anyone reading this knows who Eric Lang is, but he's a cool game designer dude. It's the crank with an axe to grind who's posting on the message boards or whining in his blog. It's rarely the guy who actually has something interesting to say.

There are a few factors at work that poison the social pool. First of all, a lot of people get into gaming because they like the feeling of being an Important Creator. A lot of these guys are, like the Colonel points out, socially retarded. There's definitely been a huge line between the "cool kids" in the industry, the ones who go to the secret room parties and get drunk together, and the wannabes who aren't invited. That leads to some bitterness. The funny thing is, that line has nothing to do with credits or fan love. I threw an impromptu room party at Origins a few years back, and the people there ranged from famous industry vets, a guy who runs demos for Atlas Games, and a n00b freelancer. These were all guys who are just fun dudes to split a few cases of beer with and talk games.

So I think there's some bitterness there. Guys get into the business to be leet insiders, and they get the door slammed in their faces, usually because they're just weird, clingy, or annoying. To be blunt, you sort of have to try to get yourself ostracized from these gatherings, but a lot of people manage it.

The other factor is just plain jealousy. J. Random PDF guy can rant and rave about how much D&D sucks, all while knowing that an actual WotC designer can't pop into the thread and unload on him. First, that's unprofessional and a bad image for the company to put forward. Second, it's not like you're going to convince the guy otherwise. He's got a grudge. Arguing isn't going to help that. Setting WotC aside, there's still lots of resentment between some companies and designers. When I was on WZL, an industry-only email list, there was a very clear pattern where some people would take care to bully those that they saw "beneath" them while endlessly sucking up to those "above" them.

(NB: I've never seen anyone who engages in that sort of behavior get even a whiff of success in the business, nor have any of them established themselves socially except with easily duped small fry. I had this little test I run on industry people I meet: if they respect Person Z, I know that they're clueless and likely not to end up at those private room parties I mentioned above.)

Aside from the success/jealousy thing, there's the entire issue of basic, defective personalities. Some people just can't get along with others who don't agree with them. There's a strong element of "with us or against us" thinking in the industry. I think it mirrors the hideous state of politics and general human interaction we see in the world today. To some people, criticizing the wrong game, hanging out with the wrong people, or whatever is enough to get them all worked up into a froth. These gets even better when the bottom feeders rush in to support such views, in order to suck up to those they perceive as being in power.

The really interesting thing I learned in navigating the RPG biz is that, the deeper you get into it, the more you see that fan level observations have less and less to do with the truth. The guy you thought was a design superstar? His games never sell more than 1,000 copies. The publishing company you love? They don't have an office or a single full-time employee. The hot shot designer who's always mouthing off? Not a single clued in company would give him the time of day, never mind a contract.

I sometimes wonder if things could change for the better, or if it's simply natural for defective people to piss in the pool. I have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised if gaming (and most industries) are that way. The Internet just lets people piss each other off faster and more efficiently.

People are weird. My favourite example is Dana Jorgensen. A lot of people can't stand him. He's been booted off a lot of boards (and PDF sites). I first met Dana when I did a Blood and Guts supplement for RPG Objects and I mentioned on the WotC boards a nice review I got. Dana attacked. I maintained my cool and responded politely a few times then just ignored him. Later, we got into a discussion about something gun related in regards to another project (I think it was the H&K involvement in the L85A2 program). Very polite exchange. Later, when Dean and I started SEP, Dana offered a lot of helpful advice and support, he even helped to promote the release of a couple of our products. It was weird. I can completely understand why people have a problem with Dana, but on another level he's a pretty good guy.

There are probably a million reasons why some game designers have issues. Me, I'm just happy to know the people I've gotten to know. Other than a couple of people who have been abrasive (and one of them was Dana), everyone I've encountered on line has been friendly and supportive.

See, an excellent observation of the subjective value of people in the industry is what Mr. Mearls said about FFG. I found the president of the company pretty abrasive. He dismissed and insulted me. To Mr. Mearls they are great guys. Subjective. The specifics are less than interesting or important except as it applies to the larger topic. In general, and I can understand although not agree, mid sized companies look on small press (and yes, I am not so deluded to think HinterWelt is otherwise) as polluting the pool. I have seen it referred to as yammer and yap. It becomes easy to become dismissive then later very frustrated with getting asked, time and again, the same questions. For me, it is important to help out as much as possible. I have not been at this as long as some, about 5 years as a publisher, but I do have a different perspective than some since I owned two game stores. It lets me advise a lot of the new folks about distribution, how to contact retailers and why. From others in the industry (and many fans as well) I am always learning. Just some make it harder than others.

As others point out, gamers are a very authoritative lot. Not all but many have strong personalities. Just look at this board. So when you get strong personality and combine it with the belief that I do not need to be polite if I am correct, you get a recipe for some serious fighting. Add in the discussions on resources and the pecking order and you get a pretty vitriolic mixture.

Just my views from the small press angle.

Bill

Quote from: mearlsI sometimes wonder if things could change for the better, or if it's simply natural for defective people to piss in the pool. I have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised if gaming (and most industries) are that way. The Internet just lets people piss each other off faster and more efficiently.

I think the internet just shows off exactly how bad a job most parents do of civilizing their children.  :heh:


Frankly, one of the goals of this board is to try to get people who play all sorts of different games to get together and talk.  The talk can involve the occasional fist fight, too, but the Nutkins would like to see a little actual communication going on.

When you actually start listening to other gamers, and why they like their system, you start learning that they aren't evil freaks who are "doing it wrong".  You may even discover that the differences you've heard about are almost nonexistant.  Hell, look at RPGPundit vs. the Forge -- you can hardly tell the two sides apart, despite his claims to the contrary!  :deviousgrin:

I don't know how well our goal is working out for our user base, but I know it's working for me.  I'm going to order a copy of HARP tomorrow, and I had never even considered playing it before.  But after Rasyr posted about it, I'm interested enough to give the full book a look-see.


One thing I'll say is that the more intelligent, grown-up, non-assburger people who post, the better the conversation gets and the better chance we have of drowning out the idiots.  Only you can prevent internet forest fires!  

Quote from: GunhildaI think the internet just shows off exactly how bad a job most parents do of civilizing their children.  :heh:

I think socializing might be a better word than civilizing in this case. With as overly sensitive and as quick to take offense as many gamers online seem to be, it strikes me that a lot of people were raised to believe they were a special snowflake with no imperfections. Or they were raised like a veal and never had any contact with their peers.

Quote from: GunhildaFrankly, one of the goals of this board is to try to get people who play all sorts of different games to get together and talk.  The talk can involve the occasional fist fight, too, but the Nutkins would like to see a little actual communication going on.

That's what I'd hoped to see at this site also.  

Quote from: GunhildaWhen you actually start listening to other gamers, and why they like their system, you start learning that they aren't evil freaks who are "doing it wrong".  You may even discover that the differences you've heard about are almost nonexistant.  Hell, look at RPGPundit vs. the Forge -- you can hardly tell the two sides apart, despite his claims to the contrary!  :deviousgrin:

A-fucking-men to that. After a very short time - as in nanoseconds - the whole bit about defining one's game by screaming about how it's unlike the game one hates gets old.

Quote from: GunhildaI don't know how well our goal is working out for our user base, but I know it's working for me.  I'm going to order a copy of HARP tomorrow, and I had never even considered playing it before.  But after Rasyr posted about it, I'm interested enough to give the full book a look-see.

Rasyr seems to have seen the light. He spent a lot of time at EN World touting HARP by bashing d20. I'd already gotten HARP, and felt it was a fine game, but felt Rasyr's almost continuous bashing of d20 could have turned away potential buyers. Here, he seems to have gotten the idea that the best thing to do is to simply have faith in HARP as a good system, and promote it as such, rather than defining it by what it isn't.

Quote from: GunhildaOne thing I'll say is that the more intelligent, grown-up, non-assburger people who post, the better the conversation gets and the better chance we have of drowning out the idiots.  Only you can prevent internet forest fires!  

Welllllll...let's keep our fingers crossed...

Quote from: GunhildaFrankly, one of the goals of this board is to try to get people who play all sorts of different games to get together and talk.  The talk can involve the occasional fist fight, too, but the Nutkins would like to see a little actual communication going on.

Which is why I like posting here.This place has a good vibe. And this coming from a long time lurker.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI think socializing might be a better word than civilizing in this case. With as overly sensitive and as quick to take offense as many gamers online seem to be, it strikes me that a lot of people were raised to believe they were a special snowflake with no imperfections. Or they were raised like a veal and never had any contact with their peers.

Probably it is a better word.    But so many people act like extras from "Clan of the Cavebear" that civilized is the first word that comes to mind.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonThat's what I'd hoped to see at this site also.

Which immediately makes me wonder if you have seen it...

Quote from: ColonelHardissonA-fucking-men to that. After a very short time - as in nanoseconds - the whole bit about defining one's game by screaming about how it's unlike the game one hates gets old.

Yes.  Especially since I've yet to see an established game system that doesn't have *something* of value in it.  HARP has given me some ideas for D&D, for example -- as a way of adding in backgrounds.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonRasyr seems to have seen the light. He spent a lot of time at EN World touting HARP by bashing d20. I'd already gotten HARP, and felt it was a fine game, but felt Rasyr's almost continuous bashing of d20 could have turned away potential buyers. Here, he seems to have gotten the idea that the best thing to do is to simply have faith in HARP as a good system, and promote it as such, rather than defining it by what it isn't.

Given what the HARP light rules are like, I think bashing d20 was a really, really bad idea.  :heh:  But I'll only judge him by his behaviour here, and it got him a sale.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonWelllllll...let's keep our fingers crossed...

You'll have to do that for me.  I might drop the banhammer if I do that.  :mischief:

Quote from: GunhildaWhich immediately makes me wonder if you have seen it...

Sure.