It's comforting to believe that gamers and the game industry are special. How many times have you seen fellow gamers trot out the "gamers are smarter and more creative than mundanes" line? Similarly, when people join the game industry, they have a tendency to believe that it's different than other industries. It isn't. Now don't get me wrong, there are absolutely some great people involved and I've made many life long friends because of it. There are also, however, immature idiots, self-aggrandizing hacks, arrogant know-it-alls, self-important egotists, truth-impaired tools, rip off artists, and even your classic sleazy businessmen. And yeah, that can be a drag, but you have to treat it like any other business. Find the good people, work with them, and try to ignore the rest.

Quote from: PramasIt's comforting to believe that gamers and the game industry are special.

I got disabused of that notion once ENWorld started growing and started showing a larger cross-section of the gaming public.

Quote from: PramasHow many times have you seen fellow gamers trot out the "gamers are smarter and more creative than mundanes" line?

That experience made me realize what bullshit this line is.  (Being a physics major and meeting working physicts made me realize the same thing about that group -- there are some really dumb, really unimaginative physicists out there!)  Gamers are a cross-section of society: there is exactly the same ratio of dumb and of socially difficient people as anywhere else.

Quote from: PramasSimilarly, when people join the game industry, they have a tendency to believe that it's different than other industries.

Same thing, though I don't have your experience.  People are people and you just have to try to find the good ones.



Despite the ease of persistant flame wars popping up, the internet does allow people the opportunity to make long-lasting friends they never would have otherwise.  The bad may be magnified, but so is the good!

Quote from: GunhildaThat experience made me realize what bullshit this line is.  (Being a physics major and meeting working physicts made me realize the same thing about that group -- there are some really dumb, really unimaginative physicists out there!)  Gamers are a cross-section of society: there is exactly the same ratio of dumb and of socially difficient people as anywhere else.

To really sharpen the point, it's scifi and fantasy fandom in general that likes to imagine it is better than the "mundanes." More imaginative, more intelligent, :blahblah: Such pretentious bullshit. So gamers aren't even really unique in thinking they're unique.

A further irony is that for all the imagination a lot of gamers like to point to as making them superior, there sure seem to be a lot of closed-minded, unimaginative gamers. "I can't play this game without support!" "Setting Y cannot be properly done using Game System X!" Plus all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how a given adventure or sourcebook can't be used because it's set in a given campaign world - I mean, how fucking hard is it to file off the serial numbers?

Quote from: ColonelHardissonA further irony is that for all the imagination a lot of gamers like to point to as making them superior, there sure seem to be a lot of closed-minded, unimaginative gamers. "I can't play this game without support!" "Setting Y cannot be properly done using Game System X!" Plus all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how a given adventure or sourcebook can't be used because it's set in a given campaign world - I mean, how fucking hard is it to file off the serial numbers?

To this I would like to add - the whole "the world is ending" bitching and moaning whenever a company releases a new edition of a game. Words like betrayed and outraged and phrases like "how the fuck could they spoil a perfectly good game" litter any discussion about the new edition.

I mean if you don't like it fine...don't buy it. I mean there are a few games which I like which has been revised and the revision was not to my taste but, hell, good for them (the company) if they can get new players out of it great.And  half the time with these new editions I find something I can use. And for some games the new edition rules really is an improvement on the previous rules.

Sorry for the rant.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: ColonelHardissonTo really sharpen the point, it's scifi and fantasy fandom in general that likes to imagine it is better than the "mundanes." More imaginative, more intelligent, :blahblah: Such pretentious bullshit. So gamers aren't even really unique in thinking they're unique.

Absolutely; and in many cases this mistake comes from confusing "quantity with quality" and "appearance with substance".

"Quantity with Quality" in the sense that I've run into SOOO many sci-fi/Fantasy/Gaming Novels geeks who claim that they are either more intelligent or better educated by virtue of the fact that they've read the entire series of Forgotten Realms novels, or all of the Star Trek novels... interesting how not one of these people would claim that a housewife who's read every single harlequin romance in existence is a particularly educated human being. But they tend to believe that your run of the mill sci-fi (or worse, your b-grade series sci-fi) is pretty sophisticated literature; a claim which only proves that you've never read any really sophisticated literature.

"Appearance with substance", well, that's what I bitch about all the time.  Geeks who think that by virtue of being geeks and either "Looking" or "acting" elite they really are elite. These people are born with a sense of entitlement and superiority, and generally think that they really shouldn't be expected to do anything to actually earn that sense of superiority, other than at most putting on the trappings of the intellectual. Showing off one's knowledge of trivia or the complexity of one's vocabulary as a substitute to actual education and understanding.  The part that consistently amazes me is just how many dumb fucks actually fall for these shitheads' acts.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RSorry for the rant.

Dude, that's not a rant. It's just a post with an opinion. You ain't seen a real Nutkinland rant yet... :heh:

Anyway, yeah, the ones who bitch about the release of new editions baffle me. A new edition doesn't strike their books blank. More often than not the bitchers assert that they haven't bought anything in a long time anyway (they play the perfect game, after all), so, in the end, what the fuck are they bitching about? It's just massive insecurity - anything that knocks their blinkered world-view off-kilter even a little is cause for bitter complaint.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonAnyway, yeah, the ones who bitch about the release of new editions baffle me.

Being a former GW WHFB/WH40K wallet victim, I understand it deeply...

QuoteA new edition doesn't strike their books blank.

True enough. I have so much source material, I could keep going for quite some time without a refresh.

But you have to factor in very real social factors. Some players must get on board with the new-and-shiny. Which makes it harder to gather players to game with. I am very comfortable with my current set-up and am rather impressed with the level of support D&D/d20 currently enjoys. I am not in the mood to transition to a new, incompatible system any time soon.

Quote from: PramasIt's comforting to believe that gamers and the game industry are special. How many times have you seen fellow gamers trot out the "gamers are smarter and more creative than mundanes" line? Similarly, when people join the game industry, they have a tendency to believe that it's different than other industries. It isn't. Now don't get me wrong, there are absolutely some great people involved and I've made many life long friends because of it. There are also, however, immature idiots, self-aggrandizing hacks, arrogant know-it-alls, self-important egotists, truth-impaired tools, rip off artists, and even your classic sleazy businessmen. And yeah, that can be a drag, but you have to treat it like any other business. Find the good people, work with them, and try to ignore the rest.

First Nikchik, now Chris!!  Hello and salutations :bow:

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBut you have to factor in very real social factors. Some players must get on board with the new-and-shiny. Which makes it harder to gather players to game with. I am very comfortable with my current set-up and am rather impressed with the level of support D&D/d20 currently enjoys. I am not in the mood to transition to a new, incompatible system any time soon.

Yeah, but some of the loudest, most irritating twats that complain about new editions and the like are the ones who claim they've been playing the same game with the same guys (in most cases) since the 70s.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonYeah, but some of the loudest, most irritating twats that complain about new editions and the like are the ones who claim they've been playing the same game with the same guys (in most cases) since the 70s.

But if they didn't complain, no one would know of their existence.  Where's their special award?

The Colonel is spot on as usual. To clarify, not only are the "bitchers" a problem, but also those who defend the new edition as though it was some precious infant that continuesly needs to suckle on the teat of fan adoration.

For example. I like the old edition of Mage. I don't really dig the new edition, but that's cool. (Truth be told there is some stuff in the new edition that I like...not enough to justify buying the new line but hey, that's just me) When you read some of the threads discussing the new game, some posters make some very good observations about the difference between the old and new game. This is generally accepted by most, but then you get the twits who are deliberately playing the obtuse card, dragging the whole flow of the converstaion to bile city, with a back and forth that reeks of pettiness.

Nevermind that the whole point of new editions are about changes...no...these dickwards have no place in their world/game view that, yes perhaps there are some factors that appealed to a specific set of people which has changed in the new edition...and these people are really not pissing (although like mentioned there are many who do) on the new game but just making some valid observations.

But to get back to the premise of the original post, I think there are two issues here. Firstly how the industry behaves amongst itself. I will leave this question to be answered by some insiders who have already posted here.

The second is how fans/gamers behave towards the industry. Sometimes the bile that some game designers receive is unbelievable.Really personal attacks. I mean the shit that gets thrown at them is like they had just walked into your bedroom and fucked your spouse to ecstatic oblivion. Which is not to say that it is all the fans/gamers fault. Industry players posting on forums sometimes go out of their way to make themselves reviled.But in some cases their attitudes are merely a reflection of the kind of shit they have to put up with. Not all the time...but sometimes.

Some fans really do make honest points about what they like/dislike in a game, and this should be applauded, after all this just makes the game better and generates a whole lot of interest, in my opinion of course.

It's a two way street. Whenever an industry person says something good or bad about his/her product and another competing product...you can bet he/she will always find an audience.

Sometimes it's a toxic stew man, people should just not partake or add to it

Regards,
David R

Quote from: mearlsThe other factor is just plain jealousy. J. Random PDF guy can rant and rave about how much D&D sucks...

I am J. Random PDF Guy, and I think D&D is fine. Not to my taste, but earlier versions gave me a lot of pleasure years ago. That's not saying that current versions are no good, just that I only ever played with the earlier versions. Anyway, any of the versions aren't my gaming tastes these days. My solution to that was to make my own game, which I thought good enough to be worth paying some token amount of money for.

I think we have to remember, as others have said, that most game designers, from the big to the small, just quietly make games. We only notice the noisy and/or obnoxious ones.

The original poster, Jong, likes to hang around with people who spend a lot of time abusing the vocal game designers. He also likes engaging in discussions of moderation of rpg discussion boards. So he naturally has the perspective that game designers spend a good chunk of their time bitching at each-other online. It simply ain't so, though. I mean, old Kev Siembieda never even had an email account until about a month ago

Jong hangs with RPGPundit. Currently Smoking: Crack. So naturally he gets the impression that the internet is full of self-important gamer types abusing the fuck out of each-other.

Well, Jim Bob, given the amount of time YOU spend bitching, Jong can't be that far off...

RPGPundit

Interesting answers so far.

I'd like to clarify something, though: I was just talking about people who promote their products in opposition to another one. Negative ads already poison real politics, and I think the RPG industry can live without them. Really, is it that hard to promote your games on their own merits?

Quote from: JimBobHe also likes engaging in discussions of moderation of rpg discussion boards.

Uh? I despise having to engage in such discussions. It means something is fucked up and it needs to be fixed, which means less time having fun.