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Author Topic: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!  (Read 1657 times)

Pat

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2021, 08:30:47 AM »
  We must have been playing a completely different 1st edition version of D&D then.  Because there is no way any fighter can compete with fireball and mobs of goons getting hit with it on the DPS meter.   But I think that was balanced with the squish of the wizard and the difference in XP to level.
Even 1e dart double specialists can't keep pace with magic-users after 5th level. The only old school edition that gives fighters a chance is BECMI, with fighter combat options and smash. The ability to take a -5 to hit and get your entire strength score as a bonus to damage (+18 with gauntlets), doubling (expert) or tripling (master/grand master) weapon damage, and entirely negating a certain number of attacks per round (deflect) really changes the game. Fighters can't do as much damage at one time, affect as many foes at once, and don't have as versatile a range of effects, but they become point sources of destruction. And when combined with the bad AC of magic-users (no bracers), multiple attacks (which kick in when it's easy to hit a foe), and the bonus damage for low to hit rolls, magic-users who let a fighter close go splat.

S'mon

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2021, 08:31:18 AM »
  We must have been playing a completely different 1st edition version of D&D then.  Because there is no way any fighter can compete with fireball and mobs of goons getting hit with it on the DPS meter.   But I think that was balanced with the squish of the wizard and the difference in XP to level.

I remember level 12 Fighters getting 12 attacks/round - every round... those poor villagers at Tanaroa. :(

oggsmash

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2021, 09:18:44 AM »
 I remember the level 12 wizard who killed the same 12 villagers as well as 15 gnolls in the same tight space.  BEing able to multi attack zero level scrubs looks good on paper, but given the low number of things that will matter with, I dont know that it means they were in any way competing. 

VisionStorm

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2021, 09:39:12 AM »
The "wahhh! Wizards are more powerfull than warriors" spiel has been an ongoing fallacy for decades now in D&D.

The fact is that Fighters out DPS wizards in about every edition. Wizards have more versatility. But thats really it.

The main factor for fighters is getting ahold of magic weapons and armour. If a campaign is stingy on the items then the fighter can end up falling behind a bit. But not by much. The system is alot more balanced than most give it credit for.

The problems start when people begin to remove the restrictions on casters.

  We must have been playing a completely different 1st edition version of D&D then.  Because there is no way any fighter can compete with fireball and mobs of goons getting hit with it on the DPS meter.   But I think that was balanced with the squish of the wizard and the difference in XP to level.

It depends on the level of the fighter and what kind of weapons they have or options are being used in the game. Granted, I only played 2e and used a lot of options, so "disclaimer", but the highest level (lv 20+ at some point) longest running fighter in my old 90s gaming group had max STR and dual-wielded twin Scimitars of Speed +5 with scimitar weapon mastery and the guy could ditch out ridiculous damage per round, between STR bonus, magic weapon bonus, and mastery bonuses, plus like 5+ attacks per round due to level, mastery, dual-wielding mastery and permanent Haste from the scimitars. All of which adds up to enough damage rival a Fireball (1d8+STR+Magic+Mastery x5+) if all attacks hit (which they always did at his level, plus bonuses). And he could do that Every. Single. Round. No bullshit spell slots or anything, but... Every. Single. Round.

We also used Called Shot rules, cuz "realism", and with his effective THAC0 from all his bonuses plus class level he could decapitate (-8 to hit, called shot to the Head) almost anything as a routine roll. Called Shot rules just break apart at higher levels older editions of D&D (anything before 5e, maybe 4e, really) because THAC0/Attack Bonus keeps improving and magic bonuses rack up to the point where a -8 to hit (the highest penalty for called shots, which is to the head or vitals) becomes negligible. At least for warriors.

But that's a matter of whether you allow those rules or not. And a lot of this depends on what type of magic items you allow in the game. A warrior without magic weapons is gonna be at a serious disadvantage against a magic user at higher levels. This makes warriors highly reliant on gear just to measure up to casters, while spell casters need no weapons still ditch out serious damage or buff themselves up.

oggsmash

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2021, 11:25:20 AM »
The "wahhh! Wizards are more powerfull than warriors" spiel has been an ongoing fallacy for decades now in D&D.

The fact is that Fighters out DPS wizards in about every edition. Wizards have more versatility. But thats really it.

The main factor for fighters is getting ahold of magic weapons and armour. If a campaign is stingy on the items then the fighter can end up falling behind a bit. But not by much. The system is alot more balanced than most give it credit for.

The problems start when people begin to remove the restrictions on casters.

  We must have been playing a completely different 1st edition version of D&D then.  Because there is no way any fighter can compete with fireball and mobs of goons getting hit with it on the DPS meter.   But I think that was balanced with the squish of the wizard and the difference in XP to level.

It depends on the level of the fighter and what kind of weapons they have or options are being used in the game. Granted, I only played 2e and used a lot of options, so "disclaimer", but the highest level (lv 20+ at some point) longest running fighter in my old 90s gaming group had max STR and dual-wielded twin Scimitars of Speed +5 with scimitar weapon mastery and the guy could ditch out ridiculous damage per round, between STR bonus, magic weapon bonus, and mastery bonuses, plus like 5+ attacks per round due to level, mastery, dual-wielding mastery and permanent Haste from the scimitars. All of which adds up to enough damage rival a Fireball (1d8+STR+Magic+Mastery x5+) if all attacks hit (which they always did at his level, plus bonuses). And he could do that Every. Single. Round. No bullshit spell slots or anything, but... Every. Single. Round.

We also used Called Shot rules, cuz "realism", and with his effective THAC0 from all his bonuses plus class level he could decapitate (-8 to hit, called shot to the Head) almost anything as a routine roll. Called Shot rules just break apart at higher levels older editions of D&D (anything before 5e, maybe 4e, really) because THAC0/Attack Bonus keeps improving and magic bonuses rack up to the point where a -8 to hit (the highest penalty for called shots, which is to the head or vitals) becomes negligible. At least for warriors.

But that's a matter of whether you allow those rules or not. And a lot of this depends on what type of magic items you allow in the game. A warrior without magic weapons is gonna be at a serious disadvantage against a magic user at higher levels. This makes warriors highly reliant on gear just to measure up to casters, while spell casters need no weapons still ditch out serious damage or buff themselves up.

  Point taken, but it being 2e and the rather Loooong list of options and magic gear the fighter needed sort of makes my point better than your point.   Not to mention fireball can hit alot more targets than 5 attacks, and at that level we are getting into cloud kills, walls of fire, meteors falling from the sky, etc.( Pack similar powered magic gear onto our level 20 wizard and give him godly class stats as well and I am not so sure an apple to apple comparison is as favorable as first glance suggests.)   All of which will hit and kill more targets and do much more damage than 5 attacks.  I would agree the advantage here is the fighter has attacks that never need a recharge, but his burst is not as big, and his AOE is no where close.  The fighter is a marathon runner, not a 100 meter man. 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 11:27:23 AM by oggsmash »

oggsmash

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2021, 11:29:32 AM »
  Did you allow, say the wizard to use his spells for called shots as well?  Since magic missile never misses and is mentally guided, seems like the Mages would be hitting quite a few decaps themselves. 

Krugus

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2021, 06:59:41 PM »
Yea I know its not popular but I use the Pathfinder 2e Rules for my Homebrew world and just as a default in that game system, Martial classes are better at single target damage than wizards where wizards excel at AoE damage and Utility.    What currently happened in my homebrew world is it went through a magical "dark ages" in that magic almost went out.   The world is starting to recover and the gods have been rediscovered as well as Arcane magic.   As of right now the highest level spells anyone can get easily is up to 2nd level spells (this is for ALL casters including Cleric's and Druids).   My players party make up is a Warpriest with a Gunslinger archetype (custom), A Druid, A Rogue with a free Wizard archetype, A Deathknight Champion (custom class) and a Monk.  So they are always eager to find new spells.   Heaven forbid I through a spellcaster at them.   They get downright giddy at the prospect of what new spells they might acquire.   

VisionStorm

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2021, 07:28:29 PM »
  Did you allow, say the wizard to use his spells for called shots as well?  Since magic missile never misses and is mentally guided, seems like the Mages would be hitting quite a few decaps themselves.

Nah, since most magic uses different mechanics than attack rolls and magic missile doesn't even allow/require a roll (other than damage). I think that the rules specifically stated that you couldn't use call shots with magic. It may have made an exception for spells that used attack rolls (like Acid Arrow), but don't recall and it never came up during play. My witch tended to favor flashier stuff, like Fireball and Chain Lightning, which work with saving throws.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2021, 07:33:14 PM »
  Did you allow, say the wizard to use his spells for called shots as well?  Since magic missile never misses and is mentally guided, seems like the Mages would be hitting quite a few decaps themselves.

Nah, since most magic uses different mechanics than attack rolls and magic missile doesn't even allow/require a roll (other than damage). I think that the rules specifically stated that you couldn't use call shots with magic. It may have made an exception for spells that used attack rolls (like Acid Arrow), but don't recall and it never came up during play. My witch tended to favor flashier stuff, like Fireball and Chain Lightning, which work with saving throws.

You can't cast against what you can't see, and I have used "called shots" as a wizard, "I cast light on the eyes of the Orc leader".
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VisionStorm

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2021, 07:37:58 PM »
  Did you allow, say the wizard to use his spells for called shots as well?  Since magic missile never misses and is mentally guided, seems like the Mages would be hitting quite a few decaps themselves.

Nah, since most magic uses different mechanics than attack rolls and magic missile doesn't even allow/require a roll (other than damage). I think that the rules specifically stated that you couldn't use call shots with magic. It may have made an exception for spells that used attack rolls (like Acid Arrow), but don't recall and it never came up during play. My witch tended to favor flashier stuff, like Fireball and Chain Lightning, which work with saving throws.

You can't cast against what you can't see, and I have used "called shots" as a wizard, "I cast light on the eyes of the Orc leader".

I think that usage of the Light spell could count as a touch attack, which might benefit from called shots, since it would need an attack roll. But for some reason it's never come up in my games (at least not that I recall, might have happened once or more ages ago). Usually people use Darkness in an area instead.

Mishihari

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2021, 10:31:32 PM »
3E did away with spell interruption, which royally screwed up balance IMO.  It massively increased the power of casters and made the tactics and strategy of the games much simpler - not a good thing.

robertliguori

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2021, 10:35:50 PM »
3E did away with spell interruption, which royally screwed up balance IMO.  It massively increased the power of casters and made the tactics and strategy of the games much simpler - not a good thing.

Spell interruption is a thing in 3.XE; you've got concentration checks if you take damage while casting a spell.  But very few spells last longer than an action, so if you get in melee range, you turn, leg it, eat your op, then turn invisible or fly off or teleport away or whatnot.  You can also have your ranged combatants ready a shot, and peg the wizard when he tries to cast, and potentially ruin his spell and do full damage.  But if the caster runs for cover before casting, then you've lost your action.

There was some tactics involved, but generally speaking, they had the problem of spells like Teleport and Dimension Door being an action, and so past a certain level, if the wizard gets even a hint of breathing room, he's gone.

Pat

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2021, 12:03:13 AM »
Yes there is spell interruption in 3e. But it was a lot easier to interrupt a spellcaster in older editions.

Mishihari

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2021, 12:54:40 AM »
3E did away with spell interruption, which royally screwed up balance IMO.  It massively increased the power of casters and made the tactics and strategy of the games much simpler - not a good thing.

Spell interruption is a thing in 3.XE; you've got concentration checks if you take damage while casting a spell.  But very few spells last longer than an action, so if you get in melee range, you turn, leg it, eat your op, then turn invisible or fly off or teleport away or whatnot.  You can also have your ranged combatants ready a shot, and peg the wizard when he tries to cast, and potentially ruin his spell and do full damage.  But if the caster runs for cover before casting, then you've lost your action.

There was some tactics involved, but generally speaking, they had the problem of spells like Teleport and Dimension Door being an action, and so past a certain level, if the wizard gets even a hint of breathing room, he's gone.

Alright, you caught me, I exaggerated for effect.  Spell interruption is still in there, but I don't recall it actually coming up during a 3E game, whereas with 1E and 2E it was a constant threat.

S'mon

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Re: Raising Up WARRIORS and Breaking the Wizard Down!
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2021, 03:45:56 AM »
Spell interruption is a thing in 3.XE; you've got concentration checks if you take damage while casting a spell.  But very few spells last longer than an action, so if you get in melee range, you turn, leg it, eat your op, then turn invisible or fly off or teleport away or whatnot.

Usually you could just 5' step back (no Op Att) and cast. Same for ranged attacks. 3e really hated melee characters.