Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2021, 08:08:11 PM
You know, Eirikrautha, way back, I added the Rainbow Hippo people to my campaign world after being inspired by all of the Rainbow Hippo girls that were in my Women's Studies classes that I was forced to take at my university. Rainbow Hippo Girls really do exist in the real world! In one class, there were just over 50 students in the class. About 50 of them were women. I'd say about 35 or 40 of them were Rainbow Hippo Girls!

Were they "generally happy, friendly and peaceful"? 

Some thoughts.

First off... Why are you complaining that players selected weird character appearances in a setting where weird character appearances you allowed?

Second I have to agree with one of the other posters that their selections are actually very mild. Odd skin tone or odd anthromorph race. The hippo one sounds like a Spelljammer Giff. The deer one sounds like the old Mystara Actaeon.

Third is... From experience as a DM and player I've seen women players all across the range. But mostly tend to lean to human or close, with the few odd exceptions. Kefra liked to play Gnolls in 2e. Human otherwise usually and one 5e Wood Elf Druid. Jan played alot of half-orcs, and did one halfling for 5e. Kathy was interested in the Kenku as she was a bird watcher and knew quite a bit on various birds and had a fair collection of feathers. Really its the luck of the draw that sometimes you get a menagerie and sometimes the whole group is bog standard human.
One of the funniest startups ever in a RPG session was playing Gamma World and everyone selected... human. Which is usually just me.

Fourth is see how things go and get a feeling for each character and player before making any judgements. You put out a selection and players selected.

Fifthly. Yes, that is a word because spellchecker says so! I suspect part of the problem is the other Mercer effect. That being creating the impression that D&D sessions are more like Gamma World than D&D. No. Really. Every thing I've seen of CR's characters so far backs this up.

Quote from: Zalman on August 03, 2021, 09:55:06 AM
My experience has been tangential to yours, SHARK. I've DM'd for a lot of women -- most of my groups over the past 20 years have been composed of half women. Almost all of the women I gamed with were initially reluctant to play a "violent" game, and almost all built elaborate (and colorful) clerical/healer type characters.

But that's not what they played.

Of those women, 25% of them sat next to their boyfriends for a few sessions before quitting. But the other 75% almost invariably turned into brutal fighters at the table. That first combat where there's no one left to heal, and they finally swing their mace and feel the crunchy blow land deep. Their eyes light up, they go quiet for a moment, and then "ooooh".

After that, I have to remind them that their cleric character has, you know, spells.

Haha, reading this reminds me of the current face-to-face game I'm in.  It was originally started for a few friend's kids, with one dad as the GM, another dad and myself playing.  One of the older girls is playing a cleric.  She discovered Spiritual Weapon.  She has been very, very mean with that weapon. xD  At tenth level now, it's pretty nasty.  Her character alone has saved the party more than once, by hammer and healing spell.  Her sister plays the party thief.  She discovered poison.  Now she is poison-shanking anything that doesn't notice her. xD  With the only boy in the group playing a fighter type, I kind of just ... follow in their wake with my sorcerer.  And I mean it when I say wake... good lord.

Of the girls I've played with, some have been fairly straightforward. Others have gone full 'guile hero' and outfoxed the GMs (one in particular is currently banned from any combination of teleport ability in a superhero game).

Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 06:48:39 AM
Greetings!

*Sigh* I hope that I do not regret my generosity. In a recent campaign I have started--the group are women, who are gaming newbies. Their knowledge of D&D has been limited to watching a boyfriend play, watching their son or daughter play D&D, popular culture, and the Big Bang Theory and such. I am normally ruthless and harsh. Especially when playing with experienced veteran gamers, I can be strict.

However, I admit, when it comes to gaming newbies, I feel an extra sense of obligation or duty to make the game fun for them, to indulge their fantasy, their exuberance and enthusiasm. I sometimes think that new players especially should not be confronted with a barrage or a "Wall of NO!" but that "Yes's" are more conducive to fostering creativity and enjoyment of the game. I'm also keenly aware that such can be potentially disastrous, both for a campaign, but also corrosive in creating a player that has expectations of being catered to. That definitely is a set of dynamics I always want to avoid.

I efficiently explained the starting area of the campaign world to them, the primary peoples, races, and cultures. Main points of focus are like a Eastern European environment, with Russian, Hungarian, Slavic-styled cultures and tribes, Steppe Barbarian influences, Germanic-styled barbarian influences, as well as some Persian and Indian-like elements. Then there are various humanoid races and assorted freaks mostly on the margins and perimeters of the campaign environment.

What characters were created?

"Oh! *Giggle*! So Random!"

(1) Barbarian: Germanic-like Barbarian Human Female
(2) Sorcerer: Indian-like Human Female
(3) Rogue: Lime-Green coloured Half Orc Female
(4) Druid: Wood Elf Female
(5) Witch: Deer Girl Humanoid Female
(6) Ranger: Lilac-coloured Hermaphrodite Humanoid (Bizarre, functional blend of Male and Female)
(7) Monk: Lemon-Yellow coloured Humanoid Female with weird, three-toed prehensile feet
( Fighter: Rainbow-Coloured Hippo Girl Humanoid Female

So, yeah. The "Oh *Giggle*! So Random!" influence in gaming culture--even beyond it to the peripheries--seems to be pretty profound.

I am of course carefully considering how all of these very unusual characters are somehow to be integrated into the campaign without being strung up or burned at the stake in their first day visiting a village, town or city away from their home areas.

Why do women seem so especially drawn to the weird kind of characters and races? Thankfully, to the best of my knowledge, the players are not SJW's. Our earlier relationships have always been good, and BS and SJW-nonsense-free.

Your thoughts, suggestions, and commentary are welcomed for certain. It has been awhile since I played with total newbies. Most of the players in my other groups are experienced veteran gamers.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So, let me get this straight; you gave them the option of playing as freaky characters and diversity and you don't like the fact that they chose them? Honestly, what did you expect? The impression they got is that the game was about humanoids and diverse cultures and the tone was not meant to be realistic. Given the option, it's natural people would choose the humanoids. Your first characters were probably non-human as well; it's what catches your attention first and they're looking for a fantasy game. We all played the vampire at some point, and it is due to our experience and personalities that we ended up preferring human characters. BTW; Why would they be burned at the stake if they're so common? 

This has nothing to do with SJWs; they don't have as much experience as OSR players do and you offered them this sort of game and setting, and they played characters accordingly.

Anyway, you seem like a good master and I trust you'll make the game very appealing and welcoming, but don't be disappointed if inexperienced people choose the things you offered them.

Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 06:48:39 AMI efficiently explained the starting area of the campaign world to them, the primary peoples, races, and cultures. Main points of focus are like a Eastern European environment, with Russian, Hungarian, Slavic-styled cultures and tribes, Steppe Barbarian influences, Germanic-styled barbarian influences, as well as some Persian and Indian-like elements. Then there are various humanoid races and assorted freaks mostly on the margins and perimeters of the campaign environment.

What characters were created?

"Oh! *Giggle*! So Random!"

(1) Barbarian: Germanic-like Barbarian Human Female
(2) Sorcerer: Indian-like Human Female
(3) Rogue: Lime-Green coloured Half Orc Female
(4) Druid: Wood Elf Female
(5) Witch: Deer Girl Humanoid Female
(6) Ranger: Lilac-coloured Hermaphrodite Humanoid (Bizarre, functional blend of Male and Female)
(7) Monk: Lemon-Yellow coloured Humanoid Female with weird, three-toed prehensile feet
( Fighter: Rainbow-Coloured Hippo Girl Humanoid Female

....

Why do women seem so especially drawn to the weird kind of characters and races? Thankfully, to the best of my knowledge, the players are not SJW's. Our earlier relationships have always been good, and BS and SJW-nonsense-free.

Hi SHARK!

I was thinking about this and something occurred to me that I don't think has been discussed in the thread yet: optimization.

These are RPG newbies by your account, and women, and the thing they went after was optimizing/customizing their visual appearance - their social interface.

When I've run a new RPG system for men, something I see them do (could just be my skewed sample set) is to optimize the ability of their characters - the mechanical interface.

I noticed this particularly running systems where the "cosmetic" choices all impact mechanical outcomes: the men I run games for/with all optimized for mechanical outcomes first and social outcomes second. They didn't completely ignore the social stuff - some really like being dwarves so they figured out how to make dwarf work, for example - but the mechanical interface to the game was the top priority, and game-social choices were made in service to that.

What I notice about the choices you describe the women making is that they're social interface-optimal: differentiating, likely providing some conflict (different shapes, colors), but not inherently negative or ugly (bright, cheerful colors and different useful physical forms rather than being deformed). In some ways they're proto-heroic: they're setting up an initial mild social weakness/challenge that could be turned into a victory over the course of the campaign.

I wonder how much this changes as the players get more experience. Someone who's never played RPGs before is making relatively blind guesses about how to shape her character based on other experiences, but after she sees how the game works, maybe her evaluation changes.

This is obviously unscientific and could be total confirmation bias coming out of all those psychographic studies of women's interests versus men's interests, but while we're wildly speculating...

Quote from: S'mon on August 06, 2021, 05:50:15 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2021, 08:08:11 PM
You know, Eirikrautha, way back, I added the Rainbow Hippo people to my campaign world after being inspired by all of the Rainbow Hippo girls that were in my Women's Studies classes that I was forced to take at my university. Rainbow Hippo Girls really do exist in the real world! In one class, there were just over 50 students in the class. About 50 of them were women. I'd say about 35 or 40 of them were Rainbow Hippo Girls!

Were they "generally happy, friendly and peaceful"? 

Greetings!

*Laughing* Well, no, the Rainbow Hippo Girls in my Women's Studies courses were seldom "happy, friendly, or peaceful".  Most of the time they were angry, bitter, and shrill. Their typical angry, bitter, and melodramatic moods were periodically punctuated by brief interludes of drugs, sexual hedonism, and the euphoria of participating in various kinds of social rebellion and "Activism".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 06, 2021, 07:18:34 PM

Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 06:48:39 AM
Greetings!

*Sigh* I hope that I do not regret my generosity. In a recent campaign I have started--the group are women, who are gaming newbies. Their knowledge of D&D has been limited to watching a boyfriend play, watching their son or daughter play D&D, popular culture, and the Big Bang Theory and such. I am normally ruthless and harsh. Especially when playing with experienced veteran gamers, I can be strict.

However, I admit, when it comes to gaming newbies, I feel an extra sense of obligation or duty to make the game fun for them, to indulge their fantasy, their exuberance and enthusiasm. I sometimes think that new players especially should not be confronted with a barrage or a "Wall of NO!" but that "Yes's" are more conducive to fostering creativity and enjoyment of the game. I'm also keenly aware that such can be potentially disastrous, both for a campaign, but also corrosive in creating a player that has expectations of being catered to. That definitely is a set of dynamics I always want to avoid.

I efficiently explained the starting area of the campaign world to them, the primary peoples, races, and cultures. Main points of focus are like a Eastern European environment, with Russian, Hungarian, Slavic-styled cultures and tribes, Steppe Barbarian influences, Germanic-styled barbarian influences, as well as some Persian and Indian-like elements. Then there are various humanoid races and assorted freaks mostly on the margins and perimeters of the campaign environment.

What characters were created?

"Oh! *Giggle*! So Random!"

(1) Barbarian: Germanic-like Barbarian Human Female
(2) Sorcerer: Indian-like Human Female
(3) Rogue: Lime-Green coloured Half Orc Female
(4) Druid: Wood Elf Female
(5) Witch: Deer Girl Humanoid Female
(6) Ranger: Lilac-coloured Hermaphrodite Humanoid (Bizarre, functional blend of Male and Female)
(7) Monk: Lemon-Yellow coloured Humanoid Female with weird, three-toed prehensile feet
( Fighter: Rainbow-Coloured Hippo Girl Humanoid Female

So, yeah. The "Oh *Giggle*! So Random!" influence in gaming culture--even beyond it to the peripheries--seems to be pretty profound.

I am of course carefully considering how all of these very unusual characters are somehow to be integrated into the campaign without being strung up or burned at the stake in their first day visiting a village, town or city away from their home areas.

Why do women seem so especially drawn to the weird kind of characters and races? Thankfully, to the best of my knowledge, the players are not SJW's. Our earlier relationships have always been good, and BS and SJW-nonsense-free.

Your thoughts, suggestions, and commentary are welcomed for certain. It has been awhile since I played with total newbies. Most of the players in my other groups are experienced veteran gamers.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So, let me get this straight; you gave them the option of playing as freaky characters and diversity and you don't like the fact that they chose them? Honestly, what did you expect? The impression they got is that the game was about humanoids and diverse cultures and the tone was not meant to be realistic. Given the option, it's natural people would choose the humanoids. Your first characters were probably non-human as well; it's what catches your attention first and they're looking for a fantasy game. We all played the vampire at some point, and it is due to our experience and personalities that we ended up preferring human characters. BTW; Why would they be burned at the stake if they're so common? 

This has nothing to do with SJWs; they don't have as much experience as OSR players do and you offered them this sort of game and setting, and they played characters accordingly.

Anyway, you seem like a good master and I trust you'll make the game very appealing and welcoming, but don't be disappointed if inexperienced people choose the things you offered them.

Greetings!

Yes, I sometimes think I should have restricted them to just Humans only.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 07, 2021, 01:16:42 PM

Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 06:48:39 AMI efficiently explained the starting area of the campaign world to them, the primary peoples, races, and cultures. Main points of focus are like a Eastern European environment, with Russian, Hungarian, Slavic-styled cultures and tribes, Steppe Barbarian influences, Germanic-styled barbarian influences, as well as some Persian and Indian-like elements. Then there are various humanoid races and assorted freaks mostly on the margins and perimeters of the campaign environment.

What characters were created?

"Oh! *Giggle*! So Random!"

(1) Barbarian: Germanic-like Barbarian Human Female
(2) Sorcerer: Indian-like Human Female
(3) Rogue: Lime-Green coloured Half Orc Female
(4) Druid: Wood Elf Female
(5) Witch: Deer Girl Humanoid Female
(6) Ranger: Lilac-coloured Hermaphrodite Humanoid (Bizarre, functional blend of Male and Female)
(7) Monk: Lemon-Yellow coloured Humanoid Female with weird, three-toed prehensile feet
( Fighter: Rainbow-Coloured Hippo Girl Humanoid Female

....

Why do women seem so especially drawn to the weird kind of characters and races? Thankfully, to the best of my knowledge, the players are not SJW's. Our earlier relationships have always been good, and BS and SJW-nonsense-free.

Hi SHARK!

I was thinking about this and something occurred to me that I don't think has been discussed in the thread yet: optimization.

These are RPG newbies by your account, and women, and the thing they went after was optimizing/customizing their visual appearance - their social interface.

When I've run a new RPG system for men, something I see them do (could just be my skewed sample set) is to optimize the ability of their characters - the mechanical interface.

I noticed this particularly running systems where the "cosmetic" choices all impact mechanical outcomes: the men I run games for/with all optimized for mechanical outcomes first and social outcomes second. They didn't completely ignore the social stuff - some really like being dwarves so they figured out how to make dwarf work, for example - but the mechanical interface to the game was the top priority, and game-social choices were made in service to that.

What I notice about the choices you describe the women making is that they're social interface-optimal: differentiating, likely providing some conflict (different shapes, colors), but not inherently negative or ugly (bright, cheerful colors and different useful physical forms rather than being deformed). In some ways they're proto-heroic: they're setting up an initial mild social weakness/challenge that could be turned into a victory over the course of the campaign.

I wonder how much this changes as the players get more experience. Someone who's never played RPGs before is making relatively blind guesses about how to shape her character based on other experiences, but after she sees how the game works, maybe her evaluation changes.

This is obviously unscientific and could be total confirmation bias coming out of all those psychographic studies of women's interests versus men's interests, but while we're wildly speculating...

Greetings!

Hey there my friend! That's very interesting, Insubordinate! The whole social and visual emphasis is very important to the women. The women never even asked about any mechanical details, attribute modifiers, or anything like that. They were enthused by the cultural descriptions I provided for the races, the race's appearances, and weird, incidental details, related to how they look or interact with others. Having antlers, tails, fur-covered bodies, weird prehensile feet, or vibrantly coloured skin all seems very exciting to the women. The players were also interested in how the different races lived, how they got along amongst themselves, social organization, what kind of clothing they wore, social customs, and what kinds of lifestyles the creatures had in their home towns.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Noticing how diverse the characters were, I wonder if that's the old joke about Betty and Veronica wanting to beat each other up if they appear in the same outfits. Maybe two women resent each other if they play the same kind of character?

Quote from: SHARK on August 07, 2021, 02:34:56 PM
Greetings!

Yes, I sometimes think I should have restricted them to just Humans only.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I don't believe in "restricting"; it's just sweeping things under the rug and also you can't force people into being intelligent, moral and/or cool. You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. If they're freakshitters, SJWs, or play "funny" characters, that will eventually manifest in one way or another. Either they'll stop playing or will play "funny" humans anyway.

If you want to open their minds, have them play something dark fantasy/horror. Call of Cthulhu, or a very grimdark sword & sorcery game. Tell them about the typical OSR mindset; there is no guarantee of anything, you are on your own, figure it out. Let them try it out themselves and see where they flock to.

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 07, 2021, 03:27:55 PM
Noticing how diverse the characters were, I wonder if that's the old joke about Betty and Veronica wanting to beat each other up if they appear in the same outfits. Maybe two women resent each other if they play the same kind of character?

LOL I actually wanna try this out. It's a legit scientific experiment.