Quote from: Omega on August 01, 2022, 11:11:08 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.

It comes up with native americans and african/americans as well. You are counted as one only as long as its convenient. Then all of a sudden you arent.

In my expirence b
a minority is only a minority if they vote democrat in the US. Otherwise they're a white supremecist.

Greetings!

Yeah, the whole "Only Ethnic A People are Experts!" is bullshit. As Pundit often rails about their lack of gaming experience, as well as genuine writing and game deign ability--even on a cultural and historical basis, WOTC and SJW's stupid, woke attitudes about this are mind-boggling in their stupidity.

In college, I had numerous professors that were ostensibly members of "Group B"--but were certified experts in "Group A". Whether it was a professor that was the chair of Indian and South-East Asian Studies--my professor was a white man. Or other professors that were not GREEK or ITALIAN, but were experts in Greece or Rome. Or professors that were experts in Spanish, or South American Studies. Such professors weren't all from Mexico or Brazil.

I had a woman professor--a woman originally from China--that was an expert in American History, American Cultural Studies--as well as Asian Studies, Chinese History, Asian-American Studies. She had spent many years in professional studies of both American and Chinese history, culture, and languages.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
It's all bullshit. Think of how many average Americans have a deep understanding of American history, religion, mythology, legends or monsters... that's exactly how many Mexicans do of theirs.

The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic. Where the history and present day culture of the region is presented in a way to please Yankee Leftists (Citlan was invaded by "colonizers" who aren't even named and are described as unequivocally evil, while no mention is made of say, ending human sacrifices; the present day Citlan is like out of a bad 1960s Pancho Villa movie of self-serving landowners, impoverished peasants ground underfoot and a heroic revolutionary that is the pure moral champion). And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).

First of all, do you have a copy of the book now? Most of this doesn't fit what I read. There isn't virtually no mention of the colonizers except that they influenced the language - and there is nothing about them being evil. I can find no mention of Santa Muerte, let alone that everyone worships her. The Night of the Remembered celebration is for the patron spirit of the city, La Catrina, and it specifies that there are different religions with different temples in the city, which is the standard for D&D.

And it's not set in historical Mexico - it is set in a D&D fantasy realm. Per the D&D standard, San Citlan has polytheistic religions of worshipped gods. Not being catholic isn't a result of lack of understanding that real Mexico is Catholic, but because it is in a D&D realm. Likewise, Pazuzu is there for being a featured D&D demon. Just like your own game Lion & Dragon claims to be "medieval authentic" - but its default setting isn't Christian but instead has the Church of the Unconquered Sun, which has equally recognized male and female clerics. RPG settings often have deliberate fictionalization rather than being accurate history.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.

Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.

Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.

I lived in Puerto Rico all my life and I barely know WTF is going on here. I'm practically a hermit and tend to keep up more with news about the US and world politics than local stuff. I might know a few words spoken in Puerto Rican Spanish that are of Taino or African origin, but I'm hardly an expert on Taino or African languages or their influence on cultural traditions in the Caribbean. And I barely follow any local cultural traditions, cuz they're mostly Christian in origin and I gave that up early in life.

My "lived experience" is that I grew up in the modern world, got into geek stuff in my teens and got access to the internet in my late teens/early twenties, where I ended up getting plugged into social media and internet life most of my adult life, mostly to keep up with geek hobbies (like gaming and fantasy, sci-fi and supers media) and politics, as well as pagan and Eastern religion, which is the type of spirituality that actually interests me. That's what most of my experience is at. The fact that I'm Puerto Rican and lived in the actual island all my life doesn't make me an expert on its history or religious traditions, which I don't even follow. I probably relate more to being a geek and internet junkie than being Hispanic.

I'm going to guess this is yet another Pundit hot take wherein he:

1) Has not read the book in question;
2) Makes wild guesses based on "stuff he's heard out there somewhere" about what might be in it that he finds objectionable;
3) Exaggerates those rumors for some misleading points to get clicks from angry partisans;
4) Will not admit or retract the fact that stuff isn't in the book, or was deeply misleading, once people eventually correct him on it.

I am open of course to being wrong on this, but as that's what he did with the last WOTC adventure compilation, I think there's a fair basis for me to expect this to be the series of events for this one.

Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
It's all bullshit. Think of how many average Americans have a deep understanding of American history, religion, mythology, legends or monsters... that's exactly how many Mexicans do of theirs.

The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic. Where the history and present day culture of the region is presented in a way to please Yankee Leftists (Citlan was invaded by "colonizers" who aren't even named and are described as unequivocally evil, while no mention is made of say, ending human sacrifices; the present day Citlan is like out of a bad 1960s Pancho Villa movie of self-serving landowners, impoverished peasants ground underfoot and a heroic revolutionary that is the pure moral champion). And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).

First of all, do you have a copy of the book now? Most of this doesn't fit what I read. There isn't virtually no mention of the colonizers except that they influenced the language - and there is nothing about them being evil.

I was sent the text of parts of that adventure.
Here's the text about the "Colonizers": "San Citlán's history is rife with con⵼ict. After years of failed invasions over its ⵼rst century of existence, the city was overcome and occupied by a colonizing force. Colonial rule lasted for two hundred years and ended in a bloody series of con⵼icts called the Wars of Separation. In the aftermath, the
folk of San Citlán held their ⵼rst elections, ⵼nally looking forward to a time of peace. The wars have left scars, turning previously fertile lands barren and
driving away the fey that once inhabited the region—some say forever."

Sounds like evil to me. Not the native Aztecs -sorry, Citlanese- who according to the history never did anything wrong.

Quote
I can find no mention of Santa Muerte, let alone that everyone worships her. The Night of the Remembered celebration is for the patron spirit of the city, La Catrina, and it specifies that there are different religions with different temples in the city, which is the standard for D&D.

For someone who owns the book you sure are bad, or very selective, about the text you quote. From "Faith and Festivals": "La Catrina -believed to be death herself- is the patron spirit of the city".

So yes, they renamed Santa Muerte as "La Catrina". And this, rather than Jesus (or, even say La Virgen De Guadalupe) is the dominant religious power of the setting. Because everything western is bad, and Aztec Death Cults are wonderful and diverse.

QuoteAnd it's not set in historical Mexico - it is set in a D&D fantasy realm. Per the D&D standard, San Citlan has polytheistic religions of worshipped gods. Not being catholic isn't a result of lack of understanding that real Mexico is Catholic, but because it is in a D&D realm. Likewise, Pazuzu is there for being a featured D&D demon. Just like your own game Lion & Dragon claims to be "medieval authentic" - but its default setting isn't Christian but instead has the Church of the Unconquered Sun, which has equally recognized male and female clerics. RPG settings often have deliberate fictionalization rather than being accurate history.

First: The Church of the Unconquered Sun is Catholicism with the serial numbers filed off. You can just change the names back to "Catholic Church" and "Jesus" and nothing changes. The point is that you can't have a medieval european campaign setting that is in any way credible without recognizing the significance of Christianity.  Just like you can't have a post-Cortez Mexican setting without recognizing the significance of Catholicism, which is not some kind of oppressive "invaders religion" that is despised or ignored by the population, but a central feature of Mexican culture. I say this as someone who is not a Christian himself, but who has lived in multiple regions of Mexico.

Second: You're out of date. To prove my first point regarding the Dark Albion "unconquered sun" conceit (something I did not because of some kind of disdain for medieval christianity but on the contrary because I was concerned that many gamers' modern-day dislike of Christianity would affect their ability to DM or play Christianity in a medivally authentic way, but just changing the name would be enough for them to be capable of doing so), my Sword & Caravan campaign setting doesn't have the Unconquered Sun anywhere. It's Christianity (and Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc) all the way.

Quote

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.

They're relevant to a modern understanding of what has been filtered down through history. So in the same sense that an average modern-day Briton would know a bit more about medieval england than an average modern-day Filipino, but it would still be a gap-filled, inaccurate, and often cartoonish understanding of history, likewise a typical Mexican might know a little more about pre-Columbian Mexico than the average Wisconsin farmer would, but it would still be gap filled and cartoonish levels of understanding.
What we're instead presented with by the Left is a notion that somehow Genetic Race-History is inherent from birth and that someone from a given culture will be a greater expert on every detail of that culture than even the most educated PhD who is not from that culture, and that anyone who dares to question this is a racist.

Its a bit like claiming that because Basketball was invented in Canada (which it was) that means that every single Canadian will know, understand, and maybe play basketball better than any American ever could. It's farcical bullshit that we would never take seriously if we weren't forced to under a quasi-totalitarian cancel-culture regime. Everyone knows it's a lie, they're just too scared to tell the truth.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 01, 2022, 08:33:39 PM

Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.

Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.

Precisely. For example, I'm of Polish descent, and I'm currently writing a Polish medieval-authentic setting for Lion & Dragon, set during the "Baptism of Poland" (the Christian conquest of the region, which was quite bloody on both sides).
But my being of Polish descent had practically nothing to do with my ability to write such a book.  From my grandparents and my dad/aunts I received little details, a few customs, quite a bit of the parts of the history of Poland that my family was personally involved in, which would probably put me a bit above a typical Canadian (or American) born person whose Grandparents fled Poland in WWII. But it's a drop in the bucket. If I relied only on that and what I've learned about Poland from popular culture (which is not very much at all), the setting book I'd be creating would be absolute garbage. You know, like Daniel Kwan's "chinese" adventure in Candlekeep that he dared to release after claiming that Oriental Adventures was just based on kung fu movies (which seemed to be what most of Kwan's adventure was based on).

But instead, my book is going to be good because I've since engaged in years of meticulous research on the history of Poland, and more recently enhanced that in turn with even more research on the particular era I'm covering.

This is not what any of the people writing for Wizards appear to do. In part, because the Leftist Propaganda insists that they shouldn't have to do that. Essentially, the Left's own deluded fantasy about the value of genetic race-memory over meritocratic research means that all these authors are all but doomed to end up writing shallow stereotypical garbage. 

Quote from: Mistwell on August 01, 2022, 10:33:39 PM
I'm going to guess this is yet another Pundit hot take wherein he:

1) Has not read the book in question;
2) Makes wild guesses based on "stuff he's heard out there somewhere" about what might be in it that he finds objectionable;
3) Exaggerates those rumors for some misleading points to get clicks from angry partisans;
4) Will not admit or retract the fact that stuff isn't in the book, or was deeply misleading, once people eventually correct him on it.

I am open of course to being wrong on this, but as that's what he did with the last WOTC adventure compilation, I think there's a fair basis for me to expect this to be the series of events for this one.

And, it's looking like I AM in fact wrong on this one. Given Pundit is accurately quoting the pertinent parts of the book to support his position, I am wrong in guessing he hasn't read the book or is making wild guesses. Sorry about that Pundit.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:21:49 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 01, 2022, 08:33:39 PM

Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.

Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.

Precisely. For example, I'm of Polish descent, and I'm currently writing a Polish medieval-authentic setting for Lion & Dragon, set during the "Baptism of Poland" (the Christian conquest of the region, which was quite bloody on both sides).
But my being of Polish descent had practically nothing to do with my ability to write such a book.  From my grandparents and my dad/aunts I received little details, a few customs, quite a bit of the parts of the history of Poland that my family was personally involved in, which would probably put me a bit above a typical Canadian (or American) born person whose Grandparents fled Poland in WWII. But it's a drop in the bucket. If I relied only on that and what I've learned about Poland from popular culture (which is not very much at all), the setting book I'd be creating would be absolute garbage. You know, like Daniel Kwan's "chinese" adventure in Candlekeep that he dared to release after claiming that Oriental Adventures was just based on kung fu movies (which seemed to be what most of Kwan's adventure was based on).

But instead, my book is going to be good because I've since engaged in years of meticulous research on the history of Poland, and more recently enhanced that in turn with even more research on the particular era I'm covering.

This is not what any of the people writing for Wizards appear to do. In part, because the Leftist Propaganda insists that they shouldn't have to do that. Essentially, the Left's own deluded fantasy about the value of genetic race-memory over meritocratic research means that all these authors are all but doomed to end up writing shallow stereotypical garbage.

At its most basic, the Left's ideology is based in the Romantic (speaking of the movement in Europe in the late 18th century) idea that man is born innocent (tabula rasa), and society/culture is responsible for his becoming brutal and vile.  The whole "noble savage" myth is part and parcel of this.  It's one reason the modern left privileges youth.  It also, by definition, rejects experience as a viable method of achieving knowledge, as experience is what drags us away from our inborn innocence (see the various Romantic poets of the time, like William Blake, for a literary expression of these ideas).  So there is no surprise that these Leftist RPG writers would reject the notion that experience (i.e. formal learning) is necessary to competently reflect the cultures in their modules.  Besides, part of the benefit of subscribing to an ideology that celebrates youth is that you get to act like a spoiled brat and expect good things to come to you without effort or sacrifice.  Tell me that doesn't describe half the authors of this module...

Having actually read the section in question, I have to say that the Radiant Citadel is the same extremely weak tea I've come to expect from 5e setting material, coming from designers and writers that don't care about either getting their game to work right or portray a realistic, involving setting.

But it's clearly not a problem-free Commie utopia.  It leans leftist (of course), but the setting also only works as long as people who are representatives of part of a set of founding civilizations are elected and then approved by magic gem soul-constructs.  And when there is not a full set of these representatives after 30 days, the light and life support turn off.

Also, I may have missed something, but did anyone else figure out how the extreme focus on the founding civilizations worked with the refugees? As I understood it, the Citadel was made by 30-some ancient civilizations, and you need to be both a bona-fide descendant of one of those civilizations, represented by a community of representatives of that civilization living on the Citadel, and then approved by the Sparkle-Ghosts to be elected to the Council of Holding a Gun To The City's Transport And Life Support.  Am I missing something, or is it the case that if a PC refugee of a not-mentioned land comes in with their own community, partakes of the services available for those refugees and forms a nice ethnic community, they or their descendants will never have any political power, nor form their own Sparkle-Ghost?

It seems pretty clearly laid out that way; it looks like there was a finite set of founding civilizations, and if you're not one of the Historical Chosen Few, you cannot achieve political power on the Citadel because the Sparkle-Ghosts who control the life support say so.  Am I misreading this?

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 29, 2022, 06:16:35 PM
Don't you get it Geekybugle? It's totally ok for LEFTISTS to make stereotypes about Mexicans, and call them "breakfast tacos", because they are the pure and virtuous. Like the "Perfecti" of the Cathar Heresy, they can do no wrong.

But if you do it, you have internalized racism. If I did it, I'm not a real Latino. And if someone non-leftist who's not Mexican does it, they're a Klansman.

The EXACT SAME DRAWING is either racist or not racist based on a combination of Magic Blood and Correct Political Worship.

Exactly! I'm not a LatinX nor a Maya because I don't agree with the cult. Ergo I'm only against their stereotypical depictions because of internalized white supremacy.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 09:27:54 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 30, 2022, 01:07:03 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 10:25:31 PM
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.

If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.

In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.

But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.

In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.

It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.

We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.

It's jhkim being his usual disingenuos twat and moving the goal posts to cape for WotC/Leftards.

Their only rule is power, they want it and you shouldn't get it. So, they will say whatever to prevent you from getting it. In this case the power to use stereotypes (not all of which are negative nor false) while preventing other publishers to do so lest they be called istophobes.

BTW, if ANYONE needs to protray stereotypical latinos and have a shield just ask me and you can cite me as your "sensitivity reader" for free.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 31, 2022, 01:27:25 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 07:14:55 PM
What's actually being criticized there is the Michael Scott levels of hypocrisy.  They dare to lecture us on not being racist and using stereotypes, and then produce a book of almost nothing but the shallowest "eat pray love" type stereotypes making it obvious that for these Liberals the "minorities" are just like those toy poodles rich girls put in their purses.

Part of your claim here is that the book itself is nothing but the shallowest stereotypes. And that's not my impression from reading the book, so I disagree. Like GeekyBugle claimed that "The Fiend of Hollow Mine" was the result of "some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage" -- when the author of that adventure, Mario Ortegón, was born and raised in Mexico.

There are some stereotypes in the book, but avoiding all stereotypes in general is not more true to culture. Many stereotypes have a basis in some true aspect of a culture. I don't think either of the NPCs pictured from the Hollow Mine adventure are overall very stereotyped. The grandmotherly gnome Paloma is the leader of an outlaw group, for example.

You can be born and raised in Mexico and still have only the shallowest understandings of your own culture's history, mythology and religion. That's another conceit of the left, an element of the "mystic negro" syndrome, where "people of color" all have some kind of magically deep inherently wise understanding of everything to do with their culture (or rather, the leftist perception of their culture), and lead so much richer lives on account of that magical intuitive knowledge than boring white people do.

It's all bullshit. Think of how many average Americans have a deep understanding of American history, religion, mythology, legends or monsters... that's exactly how many Mexicans do of theirs.

The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic. Where the history and present day culture of the region is presented in a way to please Yankee Leftists (Citlan was invaded by "colonizers" who aren't even named and are described as unequivocally evil, while no mention is made of say, ending human sacrifices; the present day Citlan is like out of a bad 1960s Pancho Villa movie of self-serving landowners, impoverished peasants ground underfoot and a heroic revolutionary that is the pure moral champion). And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).

Quote

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 07:32:14 PM
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.

Can you share a link to the specific claims you're talking about? For example, I recall that for the Champions supplement for Britain ("Kingdom of Champions"), the producers tried to get someone of English background to write it. I did not consider that racist. It seemed clear to me that the idea was about lived background and culture, not thinking that understanding was tied to someone's DNA. In general, many people consider "lived experience" to be important. So, someone who was raised in a particular culture - like growing up singing children's songs, interacting with relatives, eating the food, and other participatory actions - is fundamentally different than someone who just studied that culture through books later in life.

Kingdom of Champions was set in present day Great Britain. If you're doing a modern day RPG location book about Ottawa or Shanghai, it could certainly make sense to hire someone who lives in those cities.  But someone living in present-day Ottawa wouldn't necessarily have any special ability to write a book set in Upper Canada in the 1830s, nor would someone in modern day Shanghai have any capacity to write a sourcebook set in the Song Dynasty Shanghai in the era of Mi Fei (or indeed, be likely to even know who Mi Fei was!).

Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

I know people all over the world who know jack shit about their own culture, or have the most superficial knowledge of it. In contrast I know people from a totally different background who have a deep understanding and appreciation of a culture not their own. Which must be all the forms of istophobia I'm sure.

Regarding the bolded part...

Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.

Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.

And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.

I bet Many of the regulars here could write something much better and with a degree of respect and understanding that fucker lacks.

As foir jhkim's claims that ethnic background gives ANYONE a special insight into their ancestors culture, that sounds like he believes that Race/Ethnicity = Culture, which is EXACTLY what the KKK, Alt-Right and other honest to gosh ethno-supremacists think.

I would suggest to you jhkim you need to meditate and ponder WHY so many of your positions coincide with those you claim to oppose.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM

Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
First of all, do you have a copy of the book now? Most of this doesn't fit what I read. There isn't virtually no mention of the colonizers except that they influenced the language - and there is nothing about them being evil.

I was sent the text of parts of that adventure. Here's the text about the "Colonizers": "San Citlán's history is rife with conflict. After years of failed invasions over its first century of existence, the city was overcome and occupied by a colonizing force. Colonial rule lasted for two hundred years and ended in a bloody series of conflicts called the Wars of Separation. In the aftermath, the
folk of San Citlán held their first elections, finally looking forward to a time of peace. The wars have left scars, turning previously fertile lands barren and driving away the fey that once inhabited the region—some say forever."

Sounds like evil to me. Not the native Aztecs -sorry, Citlanese- who according to the history never did anything wrong.

The Citlanis aren't shown as blameless. There is little said about the ancient Citlanis or the colonizers -- but the modern-day Citlani rulers are seen as oppressive and corrupt by the common people. You claimed that the colonizers were "described as unequivocally evil" -- but your quote doesn't say that. The war against them was described as bloody - and that's it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM

Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
I can find no mention of Santa Muerte, let alone that everyone worships her. The Night of the Remembered celebration is for the patron spirit of the city, La Catrina, and it specifies that there are different religions with different temples in the city, which is the standard for D&D.

For someone who owns the book you sure are bad, or very selective, about the text you quote. From "Faith and Festivals": "La Catrina -believed to be death herself- is the patron spirit of the city".

So yes, they renamed Santa Muerte as "La Catrina". And this, rather than Jesus (or, even say La Virgen De Guadalupe) is the dominant religious power of the setting. Because everything western is bad, and Aztec Death Cults are wonderful and diverse.

What you quoted says she is the patron spirit of the city, and not a goddess - nor does it specify that she is generally or exclusively worshipped. The paragraph you are quoting from Faith and Festivals as a whole goes:

QuoteWorship is ingrained in city culture, and major religions have temples ranging from grandiose to quaint. "Don't piss outside the cantina lest you soil a temple" is a local saying that both offers etiquette advice and references the city's many centers of worship. La Catrina - believed to be death herself - is the patron spirit of the city. She is a capricious figure who wished to be celebrated rather than feared.

Note how "major religions" plural have temples. So there are many different religions, and La Catrina is not described as one of those worships. She is only a local spirit to the city.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM
So in the same sense that an average modern-day Briton would know a bit more about medieval england than an average modern-day Filipino, but it would still be a gap-filled, inaccurate, and often cartoonish understanding of history, likewise a typical Mexican might know a little more about pre-Columbian Mexico than the average Wisconsin farmer would, but it would still be gap filled and cartoonish levels of understanding.

What we're instead presented with by the Left is a notion that somehow Genetic Race-History is inherent from birth and that someone from a given culture will be a greater expert on every detail of that culture than even the most educated PhD who is not from that culture, and that anyone who dares to question this is a racist.

No one that I know on the left believes in your version of racial memory from birth. I'm sure someone somewhere on the Internet believes that, but it's not the dominant belief. People I know believe that lived experience is important. You use "pre-Columbian Mexico" as your example here, but the example we are discussing is based on post-colonial independent Mexico.

It's a question about how much one rates experiences like growing up speaking the language, singing the songs, celebrating the festivals, participating in the religion, and other lived experience. I think that these are important. They're not everything, but they're very significant compared to reading some books and/or taking college courses as an adult. I would compare it to learning a language. Someone can study an unrelated language for years as an adult, with hundreds of hours of college course work, and still not speak it as well as the average native.

To take your latter example: consider how much a typical Mexican and an average Wisconsin farmer know about pre-Columbian Mexico. Both have major gaps in their knowledge. Then suppose I asked both to study about pre-Columbian Mexico for a month. The Mexican would likely have a lot more resources available to them - like people within their circle, museums, and so forth. And they have a lot more context for what they read, like knowing more of the geography, weather, plants, and animals which are part of the history.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2022, 11:00:24 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic.

Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.

Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.

And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.

No, that isn't what he wrote. Santa Muerte isn't mentioned by name. There is a local spirit called "La Catrina" who some people of the city dress up as, but she is not called a goddess nor is it said that they worship her. It is explicit that there are different temples for different major religions. Here's the text description:

QuoteEmerging from the cenote, the characters find themselves in San Citlan in the midst of the Night of the Remembered celebrations. The characters can make their way through the city without incident, but the festivities are unignorable.

Colorful flowers and paper decorations hang between buildings, and delicious scents waft from the food stalls at every street corner. Locals wearing elaborate masks and costumes celebrate in the streets. Well-dressed skeletons walk alongside pompous-looking business barons, and mischievous children in devil costumes poke at onlookers with toy tridents.

A character who succeeds on a DC 14 Intelligence (History or Religion) check knows the costumes represent La Catrina, patron spirit of the city; Don Roque, a long-dead politician who became the satirical face of the government; and Los Diablitos, comical renditions of fiends from local fables.

I guess Pundit is calling it "political" because the costume satirizing local government, but that seems like a stretch to me.